What are you watching tonight?

[Prufrock]

Watching it atm...quite good actually. John Sessions as Geoffrey Howe...lol.

Unfortunately I can't watch the Devil re-incarnate paraded before our eyes in a tragic disservice to the poor actress thence I would forever irrationally hate. Instead I must make do with with youtube Dylan Moran's 'Monster'. Absolute hero of a man. I honestly believe anyone who doesn't find him funny has no soul.

It is rather good. Seeing her getting transformed into the behemoth (or leviathan...whichever is correct) which ultimately led to her downfall

Question is: would you fellate a smurf?

Nope, I'm a Gargamel man all the way.

Heh, garglemel.

Pedant, although it is so so true as a rebuttal of that death before dishonour b*llocks. However, I'd love to make a smurf omlette no matter the situation.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

While I have some admiration for Thatcher and enjoy some of Archer's short stories, I'm not sure I'd claim him as a friend, PB - he is not really a role model. Oh, and Bruce - Cuba does have some of the best health care facilities in the Caribbean and a reasonable literacy rate - so it wasn't all bad.

He's a nice bloke... a bit of rogue, but hey ho....

Anyway, the more relevant point here was that he is still very close to MT.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Dreadful woman. I don't normally, in fact I almost exclusively never, throw insults such as those around but she is one of the few people I have no sympathy for.

I know it's trendy just to hate her, and there are people burning flags who aren't really sure who she was, but I despise that woman.

Just out of interest, what is it that sets you apart from these ignorant flag burners you speak of?

Back to the original point. Her grave will become a public urinal. I know she had tough choices to make, and was faced with a failing industry, but sticking two fingers up to it, whilst showing your arse and introducing her laissez-faire b*llocks 'feck it if people don't have jobs I don't give a sh*t conservatism wasn't really the best option.

What exactly do you mean by this? How did she achieve this anatomically unlikely feat?

Like I've said it's 'trendy' to hate her, just because she is easy to poke fun at, but whilst the minig industry was fecked, she didn't have to throw their P45s on the floor and whilst they bent down to pick them up, feck them rigid up the posterior.

Again, what do you mean by this - what is it, exactly, that she did you feel she 'didn't have to' do?

[General Mannerheim]

gran torino.

it were belting!

[Verbal]

Ended up missing this programme in the end... might try to watch it on iPlayer sometime.

Possible spoilers, though I guess you know most of the story already

It was fantastic man, well worth a watch. Though it made me a bit uneasy as the guy playing John Major made him seem like a calculated, cold blooded pyschopath

But as I was saying, great telly. It starts with Howe's resignation, and from them flips back and forth from the 'present' (1990 and onward) to the past (From campaigning for Conservative leader up until 1989). The actress playing Thatcher (I forget the name) was superb, flipping between matriachal, caring, frustrated and cocky (in particular the scene where she calls the Chancellor 'cheap). There always seemed to be a tinge of sadness in her eyes though, even when with Dennis.

The best bit for me was near the end, when they were celebrating Thatcher's 10 years as PM. The likes of Howe and Lawson in the corner of the room, champagne in hand, effectively name calling behind her back. She then strides up and treats them like impetulent children - you cans see the passive hate in Howe's face, it's awesome. A year later, and you're back at the beginning.

Being honest, this is how I want The Damned United to be realised - documenting the creation and destruction of an egoist, who became consumed by their own power and goals. Would it be unfair to compare this to Downfall - the idea of an iconic (to some) leader who demands absolute loyalty, eventually coming up against a tide of pressure and events which eventually lead even their closest allies dissuading and telling them it's over?

He who wields the dagger never wears the crown

[ratbert]

Though it made me a bit uneasy as the guy playing John Major made him seem like a calculated, cold blooded pyschopath

No-one gets to be PM without some of those qualities... I've never really believed that a man brave enough to jump into bed with Edwina Currie could have ended up running the country by accident.

Being honest, this is how I want The Damned United to be realised - documenting the creation and destruction of an egoist, who became consumed by their own power and goals. Would it be unfair to compare this to Downfall - the idea of an iconic (to some) leader who demands absolute loyalty, eventually coming up against a tide of pressure and events which eventually lead even their closest allies dissuading and telling them it's over?

The similarities between the events in Thatcher and Downfall was that those around both leaders saw defeat staring them in the face and abandoned them in a mass panic, leaving the person at the top isolated and at the mercy of the lions.

As far as The Damned United goes, I get the impression Clough was isolated at Leeds from day one. A more apt comparison with the above would be his time at Forest, when he fell from his peak there after having his own way for so long.

[Verbal]

Though it made me a bit uneasy as the guy playing John Major made him seem like a calculated, cold blooded pyschopath

No-one gets to be PM without some of those qualities... I've never really believed that a man brave enough to jump into bed with Edwina Currie could have ended up running the country by accident.

Did you watch it, ratbert? He just seemed the very antithesis of Thatcher in terms of personality. Actually quite chilling at one point. and thank you for reintroducing my mind with the Currie-Major complex.

Being honest, this is how I want The Damned United to be realised - documenting the creation and destruction of an egoist, who became consumed by their own power and goals. Would it be unfair to compare this to Downfall - the idea of an iconic (to some) leader who demands absolute loyalty, eventually coming up against a tide of pressure and events which eventually lead even their closest allies dissuading and telling them it's over?

The similarities between the events in Thatcher and Downfall was that those around both leaders saw defeat staring them in the face and abandoned them in a mass panic, leaving the person at the top isolated and at the mercy of the lions.

As far as The Damned United goes, I get the impression Clough was isolated at Leeds from day one. A more apt comparison with the above would be his time at Forest, when he fell from his peak there after having his own way for so long.

[/quote]

I had only seen glimpses of Downfall, that's why I left it as a question. The main bit I've seen (well I think the world and his missus has seen it by now) is the bit where he goes ballistic at his lieutenants in the cell...it's been parodied many times. Well, there were some bits in Margaret that resonated.

With the Damned United, I felt it more with story structure - the book interweaves past and present, the glory days with Derby and his time with Leeds, which ended disastorously. Margaret does this very well I thought. I still think the comparison is apt though, story wise...Thatcher in the show had a real matrichal relationship with her cabinet, until her kids, starting with Howe, found out they could say no. She thusly became quite insular. Cloughie started out running the show at Derby, Brighton, then Leeds...until he found that players he had cared for, trained, intimidated for so long could stop listening to him.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

He who wields the dagger never wears the crown

Indeed.... and of course it's something that plays out today, with the likes of Miliband only too aware of what has gone before.

[Prufrock]

Dreadful woman. I don't normally, in fact I almost exclusively never, throw insults such as those around but she is one of the few people I have no sympathy for.

I know it's trendy just to hate her, and there are people burning flags who aren't really sure who she was, but I despise that woman.

Just out of interest, what is it that sets you apart from these ignorant flag burners you speak of?

Back to the original point. Her grave will become a public urinal. I know she had tough choices to make, and was faced with a failing industry, but sticking two fingers up to it, whilst showing your arse and introducing her laissez-faire b*llocks 'feck it if people don't have jobs I don't give a sh*t conservatism wasn't really the best option.

What exactly do you mean by this? How did she achieve this anatomically unlikely feat?

Like I've said it's 'trendy' to hate her, just because she is easy to poke fun at, but whilst the minig industry was fecked, she didn't have to throw their P45s on the floor and whilst they bent down to pick them up, feck them rigid up the posterior.

Again, what do you mean by this - what is it, exactly, that she did you feel she 'didn't have to' do?

After a nicotine breakfast to stop me having an aneurysm talking about the woman, here we go.

The mining industry was fecked, but instead of going through the unions, improved redundancy pay, and you know, a tad of humanity to make the fall a bit softer for those who's livelihoods were at stake, she went for her egotistical power mad 'hard line' and decided immediate profit, or reducing immediate losses was more important than people. Don't get me wrong i don't think the NUM handled it brilliantly, and gave excuses for her hard line stance but her intimidating tactics, and complete lack of heart rankle. People who were terrified about losing their livelihoods, who went nearly a year with no wages, no benifits, and relying on charity and handouts just to survive got dragged in a political and egocentrical public battle between the 'Iron Lady' and the Union leaders.

I know you love your free market, but I don't. She sold the future to the highest bid, privatising anything that moved, and leading in this materialisic culture of selfishness, where people are happy to feck each other over just for personal gain, where people will happily buy stuff they can't afford now, with the view to paying it off when they still can't afford it in the future. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

Myself and TD have a running joke about how everything was or wasn't better in the old days, but joking aside, there is no sense of community now, particularly in poorer inner city areas, people are terrified to walk the streets. And for every tracksuit mugger, there is a guy in a suit who wouldn't lift a finger for anybody else. And for me a large part of that blame falls at the door of that heartless humanity lacking bint, and the subsequent selfishness her reign imbued in the psyche of the country.

My main problem with her is that she was more interested in numbers in profit columns than she was in the people she was supposed to represent.

[superjohnmcginlay]

Beat the Argies though. Thats always a good thing.

[Prufrock]

Beat the Argies though. Thats always a good thing.

Spose no-one's ALL bad

[Puskas]

[quote="Prufrock]

The mining industry was fecked,[/quote]

Always suprised how this lie seems to have been picked up and is now repeated.
The mining industry wasn't "fecked" - it could have been fine.
Thatcher, class warrior that she was, picked on the miners to teach them a lesson. Stockpiled coal for ages. Finally forced them into showing their hand during the summer.
Tactically idiotic by Scargill - and worse was that he didn't trust his own members. A national ballot, and he'd have won. Miners would have won. Even so, the government had to buy off Nacods, by giving the pit-deputies large pay-rises.

That the mining industry is now fecked can be layed squarely at the door of Thatcher and McGregor.

[Prufrock]

The mining industry was fecked,

Always suprised how this lie seems to have been picked up and is now repeated.
The mining industry wasn't "fecked" - it could have been fine.
Thatcher, class warrior that she was, picked on the miners to teach them a lesson. Stockpiled coal for ages. Finally forced them into showing their hand during the summer.
Tactically idiotic by Scargill - and worse was that he didn't trust his own members. A national ballot, and he'd have won. Miners would have won. Even so, the government had to buy off Nacods, by giving the pit-deputies large pay-rises.

That the mining industry is now fecked can be layed squarely at the door of Thatcher and McGregor.

I should more accurately have said the mines they wanted to close were fecked as they were. They could perhaps have been upgraded, but that would still have meant job losses which the unions would probably have opposed. That said surely that is a better option than fecking everyobdy off and balls to them and their families. Agree completely that Scargill's tactics were poor, though I'm not sure a national ballot would have been quite the foregone conclusion you imply.

All in all, she's still a bint, and regardless of the miners strike, still damaged the fabric and ideology of this country massively.

[warthog]

The mining industry was fecked,

Always suprised how this lie seems to have been picked up and is now repeated.
The mining industry wasn't "fecked" - it could have been fine.
Thatcher, class warrior that she was, picked on the miners to teach them a lesson. Stockpiled coal for ages. Finally forced them into showing their hand during the summer.
Tactically idiotic by Scargill - and worse was that he didn't trust his own members. A national ballot, and he'd have won. Miners would have won. Even so, the government had to buy off Nacods, by giving the pit-deputies large pay-rises.

That the mining industry is now fecked can be layed squarely at the door of Thatcher and McGregor.

I should more accurately have said the mines they wanted to close were fecked as they were. They could perhaps have been upgraded, but that would still have meant job losses which the unions would probably have opposed. That said surely that is a better option than fecking everyobdy off and balls to them and their families. Agree completely that Scargill's tactics were poor, though I'm not sure a national ballot would have been quite the foregone conclusion you imply.

All in all, she's still a bint, and regardless of the miners strike, still damaged the fabric and ideology of this country massively.

Some of those pits were economically viable. The miners bought one of them and it only closed last year!

Ian McGregor's biography is worth a read btw. He couldn't believe Scargill's incompetence.

[Prufrock]

The mining industry was fecked,

Always suprised how this lie seems to have been picked up and is now repeated.
The mining industry wasn't "fecked" - it could have been fine.
Thatcher, class warrior that she was, picked on the miners to teach them a lesson. Stockpiled coal for ages. Finally forced them into showing their hand during the summer.
Tactically idiotic by Scargill - and worse was that he didn't trust his own members. A national ballot, and he'd have won. Miners would have won. Even so, the government had to buy off Nacods, by giving the pit-deputies large pay-rises.

That the mining industry is now fecked can be layed squarely at the door of Thatcher and McGregor.

I should more accurately have said the mines they wanted to close were fecked as they were. They could perhaps have been upgraded, but that would still have meant job losses which the unions would probably have opposed. That said surely that is a better option than fecking everyobdy off and balls to them and their families. Agree completely that Scargill's tactics were poor, though I'm not sure a national ballot would have been quite the foregone conclusion you imply.

All in all, she's still a bint, and regardless of the miners strike, still damaged the fabric and ideology of this country massively.

Some of those pits were economically viable. The miners bought one of them and it only closed last year!

Ian McGregor's biography is worth a read btw. He couldn't believe Scargill's incompetence.

Didn't know that, everything I've read indicated they were all making unsustainable losses, but if one was still running last year, that can't have been the case!

Might check out yon autobiography, do you have a name?

[Little Green Man]

Ian McGregor's biography is worth a read btw. He couldn't believe Scargill's incompetence.

Didn't know that, everything I've read indicated they were all making unsustainable losses, but if one was still running last year, that can't have been the case!

Might check out yon autobiography, do you have a name?

Ian MacGregor

[TANGODANCER]

Take it that "Brassed Off" is amongst your favourite films Prufrock?

It's certainly one of mine but rather from Pete Postlethwaite's brilliant performance and the "Concerto Araunjuez" rendering than the political angles.

[superjohnmcginlay]

Take it that "Brassed Off" is amongst your favourite films Prufrock?

It's certainly one of mine but rather from Pete Postlethwaite's brilliant performance and the "Concerto Araunjuez" rendering than the political angles.

I though it was a bit boring. But it did mention Brighouse & Rastrick Brass Band. Which is good.

[warthog]

The mining industry was fecked,

Always suprised how this lie seems to have been picked up and is now repeated.
The mining industry wasn't "fecked" - it could have been fine.
Thatcher, class warrior that she was, picked on the miners to teach them a lesson. Stockpiled coal for ages. Finally forced them into showing their hand during the summer.
Tactically idiotic by Scargill - and worse was that he didn't trust his own members. A national ballot, and he'd have won. Miners would have won. Even so, the government had to buy off Nacods, by giving the pit-deputies large pay-rises.

That the mining industry is now fecked can be layed squarely at the door of Thatcher and McGregor.

I should more accurately have said the mines they wanted to close were fecked as they were. They could perhaps have been upgraded, but that would still have meant job losses which the unions would probably have opposed. That said surely that is a better option than fecking everyobdy off and balls to them and their families. Agree completely that Scargill's tactics were poor, though I'm not sure a national ballot would have been quite the foregone conclusion you imply.

All in all, she's still a bint, and regardless of the miners strike, still damaged the fabric and ideology of this country massively.

Some of those pits were economically viable. The miners bought one of them and it only closed last year!

Ian McGregor's biography is worth a read btw. He couldn't believe Scargill's incompetence.

Didn't know that, everything I've read indicated they were all making unsustainable losses, but if one was still running last year, that can't have been the case!

Might check out yon autobiography, do you have a name?

It's called The Enemies Within: The Story of the Miners' Strike, 1984-5, written with Rodney Tyler

[Bruce Rioja]

My main problem with her is that she was more interested in numbers in profit columns than she was in the people she was supposed to represent.

Those same people that freely voted her in on a record-breaking three occasions? Hmmm.