Poker.

[Verbal]

As a slight aside, many boozers used to run four or five tables in the late 70's and early 80's playing Don, Nap (oleon) and Crib/Cribbage. This was when they used to have decent Vaults (or at least had a Vault). As drinking was generally limited to opening times (other than lock-ins and AT's), the "sessions" were limited to opening times. Poker didn't feature much as a) it's an largely American invention in it's current format and b) the "rules" surrounding a game of poker generally meant the person who came in with the largest bank account invariably went out with it somewhat higher in value "Can't pay to see a blind man" was one such connivance.

Got to say as a card game, it doesn't do much for me. For a start, you don't actually play cards in it - a bit like pontoon, you just wager on the cards you have against what someone else might have. Give me Don, Crib or Bridge (or just about any card game that needs skill to actually play cards)...

I would disagree slightly with that. Obviously there is an element of luck involved as to what two cards you recieve. Yet how you play with them is where the skill lies. Betting big with a pocket pair pre-flop is pretty standard, yet some people would slow play this to get more fish in the pot. Obviously, this carries risks itself as if your opponents hit on the community cards, your lack of agression has not worked.

I think poker is more of a situation game, which is what I like

[freeindeed]

I agree that it's not the most compelling game in the world - but it is made compelling by the rewards on offer for being good at it. My favourite game is chess, and in chess luck is almost negligible, a good player will beat a weak player 100% of the time.
Poker is the only(?) game in the world where you can play badly and win! but that is only in the short term, due to a run of 'lucky' cards. You may win 1 hand, game or even tournament with an extreme run of cards, but quite simply if you get your money in as a 3:1 favourite - you win 3/4 of the time! Consistently make good decisions, make good bets with the odds in your favour and over time you do make money.

[markakamark]

A few of us play at The Wilton Arms on monday nights (not this monday) and that's always good fun. Usually get a couple of £10 games in and then finish on a couple of games we made up: Hellfire, and Damnation!

As the for the luck thing. Of course there's luck, it's a deck of cards. But if skill wasn't involved, you wouldn't get the same players reaching the final tables every year, and you certainly do! At least to some extent.

[William the White]

I agree that it's not the most compelling game in the world - but it is made compelling by the rewards on offer for being good at it. My favourite game is chess, and in chess luck is almost negligible, a good player will beat a weak player 100% of the time.
Poker is the only(?) game in the world where you can play badly and win! but that is only in the short term, due to a run of 'lucky' cards. You may win 1 hand, game or even tournament with an extreme run of cards, but quite simply if you get your money in as a 3:1 favourite - you win 3/4 of the time! Consistently make good decisions, make good bets with the odds in your favour and over time you do make money.

And football!

[Verbal]

watching lot of high stakes poker series 5 atm...have to say I'm loving Tom 'Durrr' Dwan's play.

he's holding q-10, against Eastgate (4-2) and Greenstein (A-A). Flop comes 2-2-Q, Durrr manages to bluff both guys out of the pot

Kaplan likened it to something Stu Ungar would do. High praise indeed.

[markakamark]

watching lot of high stakes poker series 5 atm...have to say I'm loving Tom 'Durrr' Dwan's play.

he's holding q-10, against Eastgate (4-2) and Greenstein (A-A). Flop comes 2-2-Q, Durrr manages to bluff both guys out of the pot

Kaplan likened it to something Stu Ungar would do. High praise indeed.

Check my previous post!

I couldn't believe Eastgate folded trip two's. Some players think too much sometimes!

[Worthy4England]

As a slight aside, many boozers used to run four or five tables in the late 70's and early 80's playing Don, Nap (oleon) and Crib/Cribbage. This was when they used to have decent Vaults (or at least had a Vault). As drinking was generally limited to opening times (other than lock-ins and AT's), the "sessions" were limited to opening times. Poker didn't feature much as a) it's an largely American invention in it's current format and b) the "rules" surrounding a game of poker generally meant the person who came in with the largest bank account invariably went out with it somewhat higher in value "Can't pay to see a blind man" was one such connivance.

Got to say as a card game, it doesn't do much for me. For a start, you don't actually play cards in it - a bit like pontoon, you just wager on the cards you have against what someone else might have. Give me Don, Crib or Bridge (or just about any card game that needs skill to actually play cards)...

I would disagree slightly with that. Obviously there is an element of luck involved as to what two cards you recieve. Yet how you play with them is where the skill lies. Betting big with a pocket pair pre-flop is pretty standard, yet some people would slow play this to get more fish in the pot. Obviously, this carries risks itself as if your opponents hit on the community cards, your lack of agression has not worked.

I think poker is more of a situation game, which is what I like

Not sure which bit you are disagreeing with Mr V..

Don't disagree there is skill, but it's not in "playing cards", it's merely gambling against probabilities created by a random deal...

[markakamark]

There's a skill to the way you play your own cards definatley.

Example - You have a very good hand! You may not be the best, but you're pretty sure you are. The skill comes from knowing how to get the most money from there on in. People can be tempted to go betting like mad when they hit a full house, but if you think that checking and influencing you're opponent to make a bluff will double the pot size, then skill has been involved.

[Worthy4England]

There's a skill to the way you play your own cards definatley.

Example - You have a very good hand! You may not be the best, but you're pretty sure you are. The skill comes from knowing how to get the most money from there on in. People can be tempted to go betting like mad when they hit a full house, but if you think that checking and influencing you're opponent to make a bluff will double the pot size, then skill has been involved.

The point I'm making is that you don't actually "play" cards, unlike a game like Bridge, Crib, Don, Whist etc. You choose to either be dealt further cards or not and gamble on the probability that the cards you have been dealt are better ranked than those of your opponents. There is no card "playing" involved...

[Verbal]

There's a skill to the way you play your own cards definatley.

Example - You have a very good hand! You may not be the best, but you're pretty sure you are. The skill comes from knowing how to get the most money from there on in. People can be tempted to go betting like mad when they hit a full house, but if you think that checking and influencing you're opponent to make a bluff will double the pot size, then skill has been involved.

The point I'm making is that you don't actually "play" cards, unlike a game like Bridge, Crib, Don, Whist etc. You choose to either be dealt further cards or not and gamble on the probability that the cards you have been dealt are better ranked than those of your opponents. There is no card "playing" involved...

Not necessarily. In Hold 'Em, you only start with two cards, so it doesn't necesarilly matter if you have pocket pair, 7-2 o/s, whatever...it is a five card hand, so you can pay to see the flop. The strength of a hand before the community cards are dealt do not necessarily reflect the strength of the hand you have later on in the, er, hand. Heck, Joe Hachem won the WSOP with a 7-3.

Though I take your point about betting on the strength of the cards dealt, half of the battle is against the player - the art of bluffing is a prime example of playing the man instead of the cards.

[Worthy4England]

But you still don't "play" cards

[Verbal]

Point taken though I think that part of the reason I like it is that it isn't always the best 5-card hand that wins the pot.

[Bruce Rioja]

I'm sure one poster said he made a living off it for awhile.

Having said that I know hope that poster wasn't Mitch Caine.

Rest easy Mr Worth (well, so long as it's not kicking off outside your place), 'twas 50's Quiff. I only ever play that one on Facebook, and in spite of me only having a rough idea as to what it is that I'm doing I seem to have amassed a tidy stash of cyber Dollars.
The thought of playing Poker for real money holds about as much appeal to me as it does to play Monopoly for real money.

[seanworth]

I'm sure one poster said he made a living off it for awhile.

Having said that I know hope that poster wasn't Mitch Caine.

Rest easy Mr Worth (well, so long as it's not kicking off outside your place), 'twas 50's Quiff. I only ever play that one on Facebook, and in spite of me only having a rough idea as to what it is that I'm doing I seem to have amassed a tidy stash of cyber Dollars.
The thought of playing Poker for real money holds about as much appeal to me as it does to play Monopoly for real money.

Thanks for that info. Seems a little quiet right now. Fireworks might begin in a few hours time though.

[bristol_Wanderer3]

I play semi seriously. I have been playing for around three years. 1st year I lost, since then I have won significant amounts. I play mostly on Poker Stars, and won a 2100 player tournament in January (ironically after my trip to the Blackburn game had to be aborted due to chaos on the roads) for $17,000, my highest so far, and finished sixth in one of the big Sunday tournaments recently for $11K. I have had many other significant payouts, but in amongst all the good results there have been lots of frustrating lower placed finishes.

Poker is most definitely a game of skill although luck can skew results in the short term. In fact in the US, the supposed land of the free where it is illegal to deposit money onto online gaming sites, there have been legal challenges made to separate Poker from Internet gaming, by proving scientifically that Poker is a game of skill.

[fatshaft]

But you still don't "play" cards

You've lost me completely?

I understrand in Blackjack there is no "card playing" involved as it is a house game - although there is still optimum strategy - but once you have that there is essentially no decision to make becasue every hand v. the dealer should be played the same every time.

In poker it is nothing like that, you have to "play cards" not just "play your own cards" which is a big and important difference that bad poker players don't get, and as Verbal says, it's not always the best hand that wins, but the guy who can make the other guy think he has a better hand. Playing cards is exactly what it is.

[blurred]

But you still don't "play" cards

You've lost me completely?

I understrand in Blackjack there is no "card playing" involved as it is a house game - although there is still optimum strategy - but once you have that there is essentially no decision to make becasue every hand v. the dealer should be played the same every time.

In poker it is nothing like that, you have to "play cards" not just "play your own cards" which is a big and important difference that bad poker players don't get, and as Verbal says, it's not always the best hand that wins, but the guy who can make the other guy think he has a better hand. Playing cards is exactly what it is.

No, gambling is exactly what it is.

In Whist or Bridge (or even good old Hearts) you choose which cards to play and when, trumping others and winning tricks. You develop a strategy around the cards in front of you, and must choose which ones to play and when to be successful. In the case of Bridge this also involves working well in a pair and working out which strategy (and bids) would be best for your team. This is 'playing the cards'.

Blackjack and Poker all you can do is gamble based on the information in front of you. Yes, that's a skill, and in poker it requires more skill than in blackjack, but at no point do you ever play the cards - you just gamble against your opponents and their assessment of the cards they have in front of them.

That's what W4E is getting at.

[Verbal]

There is no doubt that poker is gambling, seeing as it is only on very rare occassions that you can put your money in 100% certain you will win a hand.

I think I get what you and worthy are saying now. In the sense that you have a choice how to 'play' your cards, where as the cards you have in poker are fixed to an extent. The only medium which moves around is the money.

fair enough point, but poker > bridge and hearts imho

[Worthy4England]

But you still don't "play" cards

You've lost me completely?

I understrand in Blackjack there is no "card playing" involved as it is a house game - although there is still optimum strategy - but once you have that there is essentially no decision to make becasue every hand v. the dealer should be played the same every time.

In poker it is nothing like that, you have to "play cards" not just "play your own cards" which is a big and important difference that bad poker players don't get, and as Verbal says, it's not always the best hand that wins, but the guy who can make the other guy think he has a better hand. Playing cards is exactly what it is.

No, gambling is exactly what it is.

In Whist or Bridge (or even good old Hearts) you choose which cards to play and when, trumping others and winning tricks. You develop a strategy around the cards in front of you, and must choose which ones to play and when to be successful. In the case of Bridge this also involves working well in a pair and working out which strategy (and bids) would be best for your team. This is 'playing the cards'.

Blackjack and Poker all you can do is gamble based on the information in front of you. Yes, that's a skill, and in poker it requires more skill than in blackjack, but at no point do you ever play the cards - you just gamble against your opponents and their assessment of the cards they have in front of them.

That's what W4E is getting at.

Thanks Mr B - that's the one.

[markakamark]

Have any of you poker players ever checked out sharkscope or the bluff magazine database. I was noted of their exisistance not long ago and it allows you to to research any players whom you may be playing against.

I wouldn't trust them completely as my stats don't match up with what my bank balance says but I think that's only because there aren't updated continually. It does however allow you to find a few players on tilt on your table, so you can take AAALLLLL their money!!