The Great Art Debate

[William the White]

Like all those paintings - proof of how differently, daringly, conventionally artists interpret their trade... But the Breughel is fab...

Yes, I should be clear that I didn't intend the word 'strange' pejoratively. They are interesting paintings and I think Arcimboldo has a good claim to have been ahead of his time.

The Brueghel looked great in person, and, as I say, I suppose his 'creative' approach to geography and anachronism was the best way of communicating the sense of size he was after to his audience at the time.

Also note in the Wikipedia Vienna article the story of the hugely anti-semitic nazi production of the merchant of venice (to refer back to a previous discussion - without wishing to make any huge point).

Ok, fair enough - I take your point, howsoever sized; to it I will add mine. Part of what I take from the Nazi relationship with the M of V is that anti-semitism had been virulent for a long time before Hitler and his cronies got going - it wasn't some aberration that was peculiar to National Socialism.

Particularly interesting would be to discover how that production dealt with the 'do I not bleed' speech - do you have these resources, William?!

I can't quite believe this, but it is the truth, the whole, and nthing but... etc etc...

this lunchtime, at the octagon's 'Poetry on a Plate' (see where are you going thread) in the discussion we got onto questions of interpretation and i talked about comparing the 1943 Vienna, nazi-inspired production with that of the RSC in 1990 something... And, in the audience, was a small lady, now hard of hearing, who'd had a stroke, but was listening intently, who was austrian and had, at the age of ten, seen that production!

this is really, really true.

so, afterwards i asked her about the 'does he not bleed' speech, and she said that even at the age of ten it seemed there was something wrong at that moment, the way it was being done didn't seem right... She couldn't be more specific, she was very young. she spoke accented but excellent english, and has seen every shakespeare play in english, while living here, and has kept every programme - inc that one of 1943...

fantastic...

i swear - this happened... Wow...

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

[William the White]

The curator returns...

Watching BBC Four's History of Russian Art they discussed a group of artists called The Wanderers!!!

In 1863 thirteen final year students at the highly traditional Imperial Academy of Arts in St Petersburg, refused to accept the final year task of depicting Odin's Entrance into Valhalla. They resigned the Academy and pledged themselves to painting the truth about russian life. They travelled the country, painting, arranging exhibitions, refusing servants etc (serfdom still existed in Russia then, i think). The result was some wonderful moving landscapes, authentic depictions of the russian peasantry (as opposed to the idealised ones permitted by the official academy).

the most famous/notorious was Ilya Repin, whose painting of the Volgs Boatmen in a realist style became a revolutionary icon.

it's brilliant:

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~russ15/russia ... gemen1.jpg

More info available here:

http://www.dartmouth.edu/~russ15/russia ... n_art.html

[thebish]

The curator returns...

Watching BBC Four's History of Russian Art they discussed a group of artists called The Wanderers!!!

that really is very evocative - I have never really encountered much Russian art (unless Mark Chagall counts) (and orthodox iconography) - thanks for the introduction...

I quite like this one too...

[Hoboh]

The curator returns...

Watching BBC Four's History of Russian Art they discussed a group of artists called The Wanderers!!!

that really is very evocative - I have never really encountered much Russian art (unless Mark Chagall counts) (and orthodox iconography) - thanks for the introduction...

I quite like this one too...

BROTHERS!!!

[William the White]

Across 150 years a slow dawning recognition of the wonder of Art oozes towards the half-lost, as he recognises, from a different world, and age, beings who might be brothers, one of whom looks like he could have a handy bottle of vodka in the greatcoat pocket...

[LILYCOOL]

[thebish]

ended up watching WtW's recommended Art of Russia programme tonight..

loved the advertising stuff - and the pic of uncle Joe Stalin against a rural landscape with the black KGB car subtly added in the background...

(Tango would have loved the dripping oil art!)

[thebish]

the inlaws went to the National Gallery yesterday to see the exhibition "The Sacred made Real: Spanish paining and sculpture 1600-1700."

they said it was excellent and very moving - so now I might have to go...

they were raving about a technique called "polychrome sculpture" - which I had never heard about...

apparently it was a spanish speciality and includes specialist techniques such as "estofado : painting and incising to create rich silk fabrics with raised patterns in gold and silver used for the garments, and encarnaciones : blending and applying of oil paint for lips, hair, and modulations of the skin."

obviously the latter "encarnaciones" made me prick up my ears - "incarnation"....

anyway - if you want to while away 12 minutes - there is a very interesting video showcasing the technique here:

http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/vid ... segid=4305

[thebish]

I wonder if the curator would allow an occasional diversion into some specifics - I mean - some "isms" - I wondered if it might be informative to pool some of our knowledge, phobias, love, insights, hatreds, problems, joys and sorrows at particular schools or classifications of art...

I'll start with CUBISM - and add a new one each week if that seems reasonable?

As I understand it, cubism was a reaaction to several things - among them the great pace of technological change in the early 1900s - and the emergence of photography as a "cataloguer" of the world around us. The dominant "mode" of art at that time took a formulaic approach to "perpsective" as it's central tenet - how to "translate" a 3D world onto a 2D canvas...

cubists (Picaso and Braque) thought this was a bit tired now - and was better done by photographers - and to merely paint "perspective-real" pictures was a bit unimaginative.

a "perspective" painting views a scene from one particular angle (perspective) and uses a formula to determine the lines and proportions to give the illusion of depth.

the cubists felt that there were two problems with this - firstly that it seems to deny the basic fact that a painting IS 2D - why pretend otherwise - but also (and more startling!) - we don't view the world from a single perspective in real life - but move to gain as wide a perspective as we can - so why limit ourselves in a painting?

that's why cubist paintings look a bit odd - really because they are representing several perspectives of the same scene all at once - several views in one go - some closeup and some from various angles - all jumbled together mosaic-like. If you think about it - though Cubists are reckoned to have been the first "ABSTRACT" painters - they are really trying to be more realistin in a way - by offering more than one perspective of the scene in one go.

(obviously this is a simplistic view of cubism - and is only offered as a starter!)

some examples??

I have always liked the early examples - like Picasso himself:


Factory at Horta de Ebbo

and Braque:


Viaduct at L'Estaque

but those are quite "tame"

a more common example (ie - a jumble of perspectives)

would be:


Violin and Glass - by Juan Gris....

anyway - i guess that's enough for starters!

[Bruce Rioja]

Factory at Horta de Ebbo

All this says to me is that Picasso was to Lowry what Benidorm is to Salford Precinct. Shite with a sunroof!

[William the White]

That's fairly condemnatory, Bruce. Why do you dislike it so intensely?

[thebish]

It's official - modern art is rubbish...

summat for Tango!

http://tinyurl.com/yhdlvnw

[TANGODANCER]

It's official - modern art is rubbish...

summat for Tango!

http://tinyurl.com/yhdlvnw

I've never claimed all modern art is rubbish, it isn't. Just some of it that claims to be art. What do you make of this "Descent from the Cross" Bish. Thought it migh tbe different enough to appeal to you. Found it whilst trawling and don't know who the artist is:

[Verbal]

Bit something left field for you...I think it's art anyway.

http://www.inbflat.net/

It's a website that is a collection of youtube videos, featuring various instruments. The concept is that no matter how many you play, or at what time, they'll all sound pretty coherent.

I think it's brilliant. The music it sounds like is kinda post-rocky, stratosphere stuff, but I don't care. It's wonderful.

Try it out, and if you stumble upon something awesome, tell us the configuration!

And an other subquestion...would you categorise this as art?

[thebish]

because I looked it out to connect with a poem by Madeleine L'Engle that I quotd on the poetry thread - about the Annunciation - I have been reaquainting myself with my favourite Annunciation painting - by African-American artist Henry Ossawa Tanner...

[William the White]

Bit something left field for you...I think it's art anyway.

http://www.inbflat.net/

It's a website that is a collection of youtube videos, featuring various instruments. The concept is that no matter how many you play, or at what time, they'll all sound pretty coherent.

I think it's brilliant. The music it sounds like is kinda post-rocky, stratosphere stuff, but I don't care. It's wonderful.

Try it out, and if you stumble upon something awesome, tell us the configuration!

And an other subquestion...would you categorise this as art?

In the long-gone days when weed and acid were part of my life I'd have loved this.

Quite like it now.

A nice post-modern take on randomness, a long way from art. But fun. IMHO.

Where did I put that pack of rizla, 20 years ago?

[William the White]

bish...

no..............................

too demure... that splodge of 'light'... the carefully crafted carpet... all that 'gold'... knees tightly together...

i think it's horrible... it may as well have a halo...

so, why do you like it?

[thebish]

bish...

no..............................

too demure... that splodge of 'light'... the carefully crafted carpet... all that 'gold'... knees tightly together...

i think it's horrible... it may as well have a halo...

so, why do you like it?

I like it cos I do!

[TANGODANCER]

bish...

no..............................

too demure... that splodge of 'light'... the carefully crafted carpet... all that 'gold'... knees tightly together...

i think it's horrible... it may as well have a halo...

so, why do you like it?

I like it cos I do!

Step back in amazement Bish, I'm actually agreeing with you. The painting is well done artistically from a skill point of view. It also conveys a sense of bewilderment and fear in the huddled figure and doesn't attempt to display common misconceptions that all angel have wings and a harp. The surroundings are basically poor and Mary conveyed as vulnerable and bewildered. Something that this sort of happening would instill in her. There is a distinct sense of "why me" rather than a joyful acceptance of the news that religion tends to indicate. The fact that the artist in capabl of painting detail only helps to make his painting more realistic. If a painting conveys something to me, a representation of human frailty, this one does. A fine work.

You may now take that brandy Bish.