Poetry!!!

[Prufrock]

arma virumque cano, Troiaaa qui primus ab oris,
Italiam fato profugis Laviniaque venit


Opening two lines to possibyl the best poem ever written.

[thebish]

arma virumque cano, Troiaaa qui primus ab oris,
Italiam fato profugis Laviniaque venit


Opening two lines to possibyl the best poem ever written.

I did the Aeneid in Latin at school - and because of that - I hate it with a passion normally reserved for stuff on the bottom of my shoe! (that probably is no reflection on its artistic merit though!)

(and - Virgil was much better in the Thuderbirds!)

[Bruce Rioja]

arma virumque cano, Troiaaa qui primus ab oris,
Italiam fato profugis Laviniaque venit


Opening two lines to possibyl the best poem ever written.

Go on then. Get it translated, or will it 'lose something'?

[Prufrock]

arma virumque cano, Troiaaa qui primus ab oris,
Italiam fato profugis Laviniaque venit


Opening two lines to possibyl the best poem ever written.

I did the Aeneid in Latin at school - and because of that - I hate it with a passion normally reserved for stuff on the bottom of my shoe! (that probably is no reflection on its artistic merit though!)

(and - Virgil was much better in the Thuderbirds!)

Which book(s)? The later half is less appealing to me, though perhaps more to archetypal schoolboys. Books two and six are some of the best stuff I've ever read. Thing is though, unlike say Homer, who is a much better at capturing humanity, Virgil reads far better in the Latin. Good at words and that, and I like that kind of stuff. I'm one of the few UCL classicists who doesn't loathe Cicero.

[thebish]

I'd guess I'd be honouring the noble six hundred before Sharon Olds, too.

Maybe I am repressed, but I don't like art or literature that is about sex (as opposed to eroticism) either... I suppose this gets to why I have so little appreciation for much of what Emin does.

Surely it is not a necessary corollary of disliking Olds to like the Charge of the Light Brigade? Poetry does not boil down to a choice of one or the other!

Just taking William literally:

It's you.

Anyone who rates the Charge of the Light Brigade will hate Sharon Olds.

ahhh... but false logic surely?

William said that if you rate the Charge of the Light Brigade you will hate sharon Olds... that may or may not be true

but it does not follow that the proposition is true the other way around... "if you hate Sharon Olds you will rate the Charge of the Light Brigade"

if "X" then "Y" does not imply if "Y" then "X"....

[TANGODANCER]

Surely it is not a necessary corollary of disliking Olds to like the Charge of the Light Brigade? Poetry does not boil down to a choice of one or the other!

The Charge of the light Brigade (I believe) stirs the Boys-Own passions of a certain sector simply by telling a stirring story (though - as we all know - one which should perhaps elicit feelings of shame and anger at such a stupid waste of life by stupid generals.)

but as "poetry" - it's doggerel surely? very poorly crafted - no?

Spot on Bish. The relevant line in it all "Someone had blundered" is what "Charge of the Light Brigade" is all about, not glory, but raw courage in the face of adversity and stupidity. I'm not familiar at all with Sharron Olds, but to dismiss long standing and sometimes wonderful poetry in the face of someone writing a poem about the Pope's penis and like ilk isn't wrong, just personal choice. I don't decry it, it just doesn't appeal.

As for 'Boys Own', well, although songs rather than poetry, I'm also very moved by "Stop all the clocks" (or Funeral Blues, its correct name), 'The Green Fields of France' and also the words of the Harrow song that CAPS uses as a sig. They have real meaning for me. . For me, Omar Khayyam was the greatest poet that ever lived. Everything he said has truth and meaning. Like you said, it's all personal choice.

[thebish]

Surely it is not a necessary corollary of disliking Olds to like the Charge of the Light Brigade? Poetry does not boil down to a choice of one or the other!

The Charge of the light Brigade (I believe) stirs the Boys-Own passions of a certain sector simply by telling a stirring story (though - as we all know - one which should perhaps elicit feelings of shame and anger at such a stupid waste of life by stupid generals.)

but as "poetry" - it's doggerel surely? very poorly crafted - no?

Spot on Bish. The relevant line in it all "Someone had blundered" is what "Charge of the Light Brigade" is all about, not glory, but raw courage in the face of adversity and stupidity. I'm not familiar at all with Sharron Olds, but to dismiss long standing and sometimes wonderful poetry in the face of someone writing a poem about the Pope's penis and like ilk isn't wrong, just personal choice. I don't decry it, it just doesn't appeal.

As for 'Boys Own', well, although songs rather than poetry, I'm also very moved by "Stop all the clocks" (or Funeral Blues, its correct name), 'The Green Fields of France' and also the words of the Harrow song that CAPS uses as a sig. They have real meaning for me. . For me, Omar Khayyam was the greatest poet that ever lived. Everything he said has truth and meaning. Like you said, it's all personal choice.

to be fair, Tango - you were the first person on this thread to be dismissive - when WtW quoted a poem - you dismissed it as "Juvenile" (even though, as you say, you are not familiar at all with her work.)

(when did I say "it's all personal choice" btw?)

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

ahhh... but false logic surely?

William said that if you rate the Charge of the Light Brigade you will hate sharon Olds... that may or may not be true

but it does not follow that the proposition is true the other way around... "if you hate Sharon Olds you will rate the Charge of the Light Brigade"

if "X" then "Y" does not imply if "Y" then "X"....

Erm, ok, I'm happy with that algebra, but I was just saying that I DO rate Charge of the Light Brigade.

And all the Sharon Olds I have ever read is contained in this thread!

[thebish]

For me, Omar Khayyam was the greatest poet that ever lived. Everything he said has truth and meaning.

I particularly liked his work on the Anthyphairetic ratio and the parallel postulate...

(not a big fan of his poetry, though - having been exposed wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too often to people reading out sections of his work at weddings as if the words are the profoundest words about love and relationships they have ever seen.....)

[TANGODANCER]

to be fair, Tango - you were the first person on this thread to be dismissive - when WtW quoted a poem - you dismissed it as "Juvenile" (even though, as you say, you are not familiar at all with her work.)

(when did I say "it's all personal choice" btw?)

Think you're splitting hairs a bit Bish. I was dismissive only of the lines WTW quoted because any sex-orientated fifteen-year-old could have written them, at least in my view. Not my idea of great poetry. You also 'indicated' that pesonal choice was there by saying it wasn't wrong to like one and not the other, did you not? Is that not personal choice?

[Prufrock]

arma virumque cano, Troiaaa qui primus ab oris,
Italiam fato profugis Laviniaque venit


Opening two lines to possibyl the best poem ever written.

Go on then. Get it translated, or will it 'lose something'?

That bit doesn't.

"I sing of arms and of a man who, exiled by fate, first from the coasts of Troy, came to Italy and the Lavinian (shores)"

[TANGODANCER]

For me, Omar Khayyam was the greatest poet that ever lived. Everything he said has truth and meaning.

I particularly liked his work on the Anthyphairetic ratio and the parallel postulate...

Aye, but maths and algebra had not much to do with poetry though. Khayyam's philosophy and poetry appeal. The rest (the bold bit) is way beyond me. I never did well in maths.

[thebish]

to be fair, Tango - you were the first person on this thread to be dismissive - when WtW quoted a poem - you dismissed it as "Juvenile" (even though, as you say, you are not familiar at all with her work.)

(when did I say "it's all personal choice" btw?)

Think you're splitting hairs a bit Bish. I was dismissive only of the lines WTW quoted because any sex-orientated fifteen-year-old could have written them, at least in my view. Not my idea of great poetry. You also 'indicated' that pesonal choice was there by saying it wasn't wrong to like one and not the other, did you not? Is that not personal choice?

you can dismiss whatever you like Tango - I was just surprised that you said you "don't decry it" - yet you described it as "Juvenile" (that's all!) I'm happy to dismiss all sorts of stuff - often for irrational and bizarre reasons!

and - no - I don't believe I said anything of the sort... where did you think i did?

[thebish]

For me, Omar Khayyam was the greatest poet that ever lived. Everything he said has truth and meaning.

I particularly liked his work on the Anthyphairetic ratio and the parallel postulate...

Aye, but maths and algebra had not much to do with poetry though. Khayyam's philosophy and poetry appeal. The rest (the bold bit) is way beyond me. I never did well in maths.

I don't know much about his "philosophy" - tell me more.... what appeals about his philosophy?

[thebish]

arma virumque cano, Troiaaa qui primus ab oris,
Italiam fato profugis Laviniaque venit


Opening two lines to possibyl the best poem ever written.

Go on then. Get it translated, or will it 'lose something'?

That bit doesn't.

"I sing of arms and of a man who, exiled by fate, first from the coasts of Troy, came to Italy and the Lavinian (shores)"

rim-te-tum-te-tum-te-tum rum-te-tum-te-tum.... rolls off the tongue doesn't it!

Dryden has a go at rhyming it...

Arms, and the man I sing, who, forc'd by fate,
And haughty Juno's unrelenting hate,
Expell'd and exil'd, left the Trojan shore.
Long labors, both by sea and land, he bore,
And in the doubtful war, before he won
The Latian realm, and built the destin'd town;
His banish'd gods restor'd to rites divine,
And settled sure succession in his line,
From whence the race of Alban fathers come,
And the long glories of majestic Rome.


(though "one" with "town" and "come" with "Rome" don't quite cut the rhyming mustard!)

[ratbert]

What this thread really needs is some John Cooper Clarke.

Outside the take-away, Saturday night
a bald adolescent, asks me out for a fight
He was no bigger than a two-penny fart
he was a deft exponent of the martial art
He gave me three warnings:
Trod on me toes, stuck his fingers in my eyes
and kicked me in the nose
A rabbit punch made me eyes explode
My head went dead, I fell in the road

I pleaded for mercy
I wriggled on the ground
he kicked me in the balls
and said something profound
Gave my face the millimetre tread
Stole me chop suey and left me for dead

Through rivers of blood and splintered bones
I crawled half a mile to the public telephone
pulled the corpse out the call box, held back the bile
and with a broken index finger, I proceeded to dial

I couldn’t get an ambulance
the phone was screwed
The receiver fell in half
it had been kung fu’d

A black belt karate cop opened up the door
demanding information about the stiff on the floor
he looked like an extra from Yang Shang Po
he said “What’s all this then
ah so, ah so, ah so.”
he wore a bamboo mask
he was gen’ned on zen
He finished his devotions and he beat me up again

Thanks to that embryonic Bruce Lee
I’m a shadow of the person that I used to be
I can’t go back to Salford
the cops have got me marked
Enter the Dragon
Exit Johnny Clarke

[Prufrock]

arma virumque cano, Troiaae qui primus ab oris,
Italiam fato profugis Laviniaque venit


Opening two lines to possibyl the best poem ever written.

Go on then. Get it translated, or will it 'lose something'?

That bit doesn't.

"I sing of arms and of a man who, exiled by fate, first from the coasts of Troy, came to Italy and the Lavinian (shores)"

rim-te-tum-te-tum-te-tum rum-te-tum-te-tum.... rolls off the tongue doesn't it!

Dryden has a go at rhyming it...

Arms, and the man I sing, who, forc'd by fate,
And haughty Juno's unrelenting hate,
Expell'd and exil'd, left the Trojan shore.
Long labors, both by sea and land, he bore,
And in the doubtful war, before he won
The Latian realm, and built the destin'd town;
His banish'd gods restor'd to rites divine,
And settled sure succession in his line,
From whence the race of Alban fathers come,
And the long glories of majestic Rome.


(though "one" with "town" and "come" with "Rome" don't quite cut the rhyming mustard!)

Does indeed, best user of meter I've ever come across, contrast with the slow mournful rum-tum-tum-tum-tum-tum-tum...of say Dido's speech to Aeneas in book 2.

As for these poetic translations, I'm never quite sure what to make of them. I accidentally bought one, thinking it was prose, from tinterweb, Chapman's I think, and it is an interesting idea, though a little contrived.

[jimbo]

Haikus are easy
But sometimes they don't make any sense.
Refrigerator.

[TANGODANCER]

For me, Omar Khayyam was the greatest poet that ever lived. Everything he said has truth and meaning.

I particularly liked his work on the Anthyphairetic ratio and the parallel postulate...

Aye, but maths and algebra had not much to do with poetry though. Khayyam's philosophy and poetry appeal. The rest (the bold bit) is way beyond me. I never did well in maths.

I don't know much about his "philosophy" - tell me more.... what appeals about his philosophy?

Try Google Bish, and put the fishing rod away. Let's stick to poetry.

[thebish]

For me, Omar Khayyam was the greatest poet that ever lived. Everything he said has truth and meaning.

I particularly liked his work on the Anthyphairetic ratio and the parallel postulate...

Aye, but maths and algebra had not much to do with poetry though. Khayyam's philosophy and poetry appeal. The rest (the bold bit) is way beyond me. I never did well in maths.

I don't know much about his "philosophy" - tell me more.... what appeals about his philosophy?

Try Google Bish, and put the fishing rod away. Let's stick to poetry.

believe it or not Tango - it was a genuine question! I've heard his poetry - I've done his maths - I am interested what attracts you about his philosophy - and as you mentioned it, I didn't think you'd mind me asking.... Google won't tell me what attracts you to Khayyam's philosophy. Maybe it would help me understand where he's coming from with his poetry and grant me access into something that currently leaves me a bit cold...