Poetry!!!

[William the White]

What this thread really needs is some John Cooper Clarke.

Every thread gets improved by the great man. Though Beasley Street is his best. It starts out dark and just gets grimier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37QUUwp9xIs

Yeah, it's fantastic. He's brill.

[thebish]

What this thread really needs is some John Cooper Clarke.

Every thread gets improved by the great man. Though Beasley Street is his best. It starts out dark and just gets grimier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37QUUwp9xIs

I believe I wrote a match preview based around the words of Beasley Street last year....

[wovlad]

Always been a fan of Kipling's


IF.....


IF you can keep your head when all about you
Are losing theirs and blaming it on you,
If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you,
But make allowance for their doubting too;
If you can wait and not be tired by waiting,
Or being lied about, don't deal in lies,
Or being hated, don't give way to hating,
And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise:

If you can dream - and not make dreams your master;
If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim;
If you can meet with Triumph and Disaster
And treat those two impostors just the same;
If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
Or watch the things you gave your life to, broken,
And stoop and build 'em up with worn-out tools:

If you can make one heap of all your winnings
And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss,
And lose, and start again at your beginnings
And never breathe a word about your loss;
If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew
To serve your turn long after they are gone,
And so hold on when there is nothing in you
Except the Will which says to them: 'Hold on!'

If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue,
' Or walk with Kings - nor lose the common touch,
if neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you,
If all men count with you, but none too much;
If you can fill the unforgiving minute
With sixty seconds' worth of distance run,
Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it,
And - which is more - you'll be a Man, my son!

[Relentless09]

Sharon Olds is my favourite living poet... this one makes me laugh

THE POPE'S PENIS

It hangs deep in his robes, a delicate
clapper at the centre of a bell.
it moves when he moves, a ghostly fish in a
halo of silver seaweed, the hair
swaying in the dimness and the heat - and at night
while his eyes sleep, it stands up
in praise of God.

aww the pope i know many a song about him lol

[William the White]

Always been a fan of Kipling's


IF.....

The 'My Way' of poetry...

Loved by so many, who think it speaks for them, though it doesn't, and can't ever, for no-one can match all those 'correct' choices of 'If' or do it 'My Way' because we are all profoundly flawed.

It's sanctimonious shit.

Life is fractious and tendentious and contradictory and joyous and grim and sexy and cruel and forgiving and that's where you'll find poetry that's wonderful and truthful. Not in some finger wagging pulpit with Kipling adjusting his specs and clearing his throat.

(Though I think Kipling had a heart and a feeling for the common soldier and his inscription for the gravestones of the unknown dead of the first World War - Known Unto God - is appropriate, absolutely, for his times and, even to an atheist like me, moving...)

I await the flak coming my way...

[TANGODANCER]

Always been a fan of Kipling's


IF.....

The 'My Way' of poetry...

Loved by so many, who think it speaks for them, though it doesn't, and can't ever, for no-one can match all those 'correct' choices of 'If' or do it 'My Way' because we are all profoundly flawed.

It's sanctimonious shit.

Life is fractious and tendentious and contradictory and joyous and grim and sexy and cruel and forgiving and that's where you'll find poetry that's wonderful and truthful. Not in some finger wagging pulpit with Kipling adjusting his specs and clearing his throat.

(Though I think Kipling had a heart and a feeling for the common soldier and his inscription for the gravestones of the unknown dead of the first World War - Known Unto God - is appropriate, absolutely, for his times and, even to an atheist like me, moving...)

I await the flak coming my way...

But we all know this WTW. Why do we need to read poems about it to tell make us more miserable? At the risk of being banned from the intellectual society, a lot of what classes as poetry is, quite frankly, a boring, rambling load of old bollocks.
A persons taste in poems is as acceptable as their taste in art. It's a personal thing and no less then anyone else's taste because of it. .

Ahem.

[William the White]

Always been a fan of Kipling's


IF.....

The 'My Way' of poetry...

Loved by so many, who think it speaks for them, though it doesn't, and can't ever, for no-one can match all those 'correct' choices of 'If' or do it 'My Way' because we are all profoundly flawed.

It's sanctimonious shit.

Life is fractious and tendentious and contradictory and joyous and grim and sexy and cruel and forgiving and that's where you'll find poetry that's wonderful and truthful. Not in some finger wagging pulpit with Kipling adjusting his specs and clearing his throat.

(Though I think Kipling had a heart and a feeling for the common soldier and his inscription for the gravestones of the unknown dead of the first World War - Known Unto God - is appropriate, absolutely, for his times and, even to an atheist like me, moving...)

I await the flak coming my way...

But we all know this WTW. Why do we need to read poems about it to tell make us more miserable? At the risk of being banned from the intellectual society, a lot of what classes as poetry is, quite frankly, a boring, rambling load of old bollocks.
A persons taste in poems is as acceptable as their taste in art. It's a personal thing and no less then anyone else's taste because of it. .
Ahem.

Agreed 100%. So - I presume it's ok for me to express mine?

[William the White]

Sharon Olds is my favourite living poet... this one makes me laugh

THE POPE'S PENIS

It hangs deep in his robes, a delicate
clapper at the centre of a bell.
it moves when he moves, a ghostly fish in a
halo of silver seaweed, the hair
swaying in the dimness and the heat - and at night
while his eyes sleep, it stands up
in praise of God.

aww the pope i know many a song about him lol

introduce the singers to poetry - see above - does it have to be printed orange?

[Prufrock]

Bishy wants to know why it is you like it. Is it the meter, the pacing of it, the style, the choice of word. Does it remind you of past experiences, if so what, which verses in particular resonate with you and why etc etc....

Sigh--Pru, don't you become condescending too. Am I some sort of idiot that I don't know what Bish is saying? He isn't asking anything of the sort. I already explained I like the truthful honesty of Khayyam. I don't anywhere compare him with others. Have you read the Rubaiyat Pru?

Bish was asking my what appealed to me about Khayyam's philosophy, not about meter, style of verse or choice of word. Don't know how you deduced that. I replied the philosophy was in the man's poetry. I gave three examples.( I'd already quoted another in this thread.) Bish questioned the second as being fatalistic and un-Catholic, whilst the first seems to me to be saying that despite all man's knowlege/science, he is unable to explain God or the after life with any authority. Is that totally fatalistic? You decide, then you'll have passed an opinion just as I did. In another example Khayyam quotes "He who put you there, he knows, he knows" referring to God/Allah.

Khayyam, for me, was a far more intelligent person than just a wine lover stating "Here with a loaf of bread beneath the bough, a book of verse, a flask of wine and thou beside me singing in the wilderness". He was a man way before his time.

I certainly didn't mean to be condescending TD. thebish asked what attracted you to the poem (I think they're his words), perhaps he didn't mean exactly what I suggested but there are many reasons for which one can like a piece of poetry, they just being examples. I have never read the Rubaiyat, it's never something I have come across or really caught my eye, perhaps it will one day, who knows; the point I was making is you clearly enjoy certain pieces, some no doubt I would also like, some I would undoubtedly not, I am just interested into why, in more detail, you enjoy these pieces. What catches your attention, and why do they speak to you?

[thebish]

Always been a fan of Kipling's


IF.....

The 'My Way' of poetry...

Loved by so many, who think it speaks for them, though it doesn't, and can't ever, for no-one can match all those 'correct' choices of 'If' or do it 'My Way' because we are all profoundly flawed.

It's sanctimonious shit.

Life is fractious and tendentious and contradictory and joyous and grim and sexy and cruel and forgiving and that's where you'll find poetry that's wonderful and truthful. Not in some finger wagging pulpit with Kipling adjusting his specs and clearing his throat.

(Though I think Kipling had a heart and a feeling for the common soldier and his inscription for the gravestones of the unknown dead of the first World War - Known Unto God - is appropriate, absolutely, for his times and, even to an atheist like me, moving...)

I await the flak coming my way...

But we all know this WTW. Why do we need to read poems about it to tell make us more miserable? At the risk of being banned from the intellectual society, a lot of what classes as poetry is, quite frankly, a boring, rambling load of old bollocks.
A persons taste in poems is as acceptable as their taste in art. It's a personal thing and no less then anyone else's taste because of it. .

Ahem.

indeed - BUT - I have a fair idea WHY WtW despises "if" so because he has had a go at putting into words WHY he likes or dislikes poetry - what it is that turns him on or turns him off.

That's why WtW's posts in this thread are interesting - had he just put "I don't like that, it's all personal taste, y'know" - then that would have been tedious.


NOW... are you really saying that a mark of great poetry is that it cheers us up?

[thebish]

Always been a fan of Kipling's

IF.....

The 'My Way' of poetry...

Loved by so many, who think it speaks for them, though it doesn't, and can't ever, for no-one can match all those 'correct' choices of 'If' or do it 'My Way' because we are all profoundly flawed.

It's sanctimonious shit.

couldn't agree more... but I think Kipling has his moments (as you have also suggested) - for instance, I love the vaguely melancholic and wistful feeling of The Way Through the Woods... (no sex in it though!)

They shut the road through the woods
Seventy years ago.
Weather and rain have undone it again,
And now you would never know
There was once a road through the woods
Before they planted the trees.
It is underneath the coppice and heath,
And the thin anemones.
Only the keeper sees
That, where the ring-dove broods,
And the badgers roll at ease,
There was once a road through the woods.

Yet, if you enter the woods
Of a summer evening late,
When the night-air cools on the trout-ringed pools
Where the otter whistles his mate.
(They fear not men in the woods,
Because they see so few)
You will hear the beat of a horse's feet,
And the swish of a skirt in the dew,
Steadily cantering through
The misty solitudes,
As though they perfectly knew
The old lost road through the woods….
But there is no road through the woods.

[Puskas]

I like his cakes - exceedingly good.

[TANGODANCER]

indeed - BUT - I have a fair idea WHY WtW despises "if" so because he has had a go at putting into words WHY he likes or dislikes poetry - what it is that turns him on or turns him off.
That's why WtW's posts in this thread are interesting - had he just put "I don't like that, it's all personal taste, y'know" - then that would have been tedious.
NOW... are you really saying that a mark of great poetry is that it cheers us up?

Bish. You asked, okay.....( I've never used the expression "y'know", by the way, so why quote it?)

Human nature is the answer to it all, tedious or no. Read any thread topic on this forum and you get a mixed bag of agreement, uncertainty, conflicting viws and sometimes blatant disageement. That's because personal taste in almost everything is as different as individuals. Having a view doesn't mean you are in need of psychiatry to explain why. We've all seen what life has to offer, some more than others; we've all experienced the emotions it kicks off in us. Are you afraid of just admitting you just like something because it just simply appeals to you? Yes, I like positive things and thing that make me happy. No, I don't like things that tell me of life's myseries , I've experienced enough of them and we're constantly surrounded by reminders that life isn't that great bowl of cherries that some would have us believe. We're intelligent enough to know good from bad and happiness from misery, surely. We and do cope, come what may.

What we don't have to do is serenade the greatness (and I use the term very loosely indeed) of so-called artsist who basically just air their angst and dissatisfaction in the supposed name of art, regardless of whether that be from hundreds of years ago or yesterday. . WTW more or less slated "Charge of the Light Brigade ( a story-poem based on history) and IF ( an attempt to get man to better himself positively) as rubbish to two of us for just stating we liked them.. That's wrong. It's also just his view, not some great truth we all missed. One of the most succesful threads on here has been the "What are you playing tonight?". That's because anyone can state their preferences of various types of music without being slated for their choices, or having to explain the reasons for their personal preferences. Art, be it poetry, painting, sculpture or whatever, is no different. Liking something without an inquest is the simplest of emotions. Maybe I'm just a simple man. In reality, those great poets and artists almost all lived the lives they chose or choose. How many of them dared to just be happy with it? Is Van Gogh regarded as a great artist because of the joy he brought in his paintings, or because he was a manic depressive in reality?

I know Pru's personal favourite poem, T.S.Elliot's "The Love Song of J.Alfred Prufrock" is thought great by him. I don't take him to task for liking what I consider rambling and badly written twaddle, indeed I wouldn't have mentioned it but for your question. It's personal liking and I don't ask him to explain why he likes it. It's his choice and I respect it, but I don't have to like it. Debate is fine if you have a point to make. I'd rather just have conversation in the main that accepts people's choices without an inquisition. Is that really so wrong or nieve?

[thebish]

indeed - BUT - I have a fair idea WHY WtW despises "if" so because he has had a go at putting into words WHY he likes or dislikes poetry - what it is that turns him on or turns him off.
That's why WtW's posts in this thread are interesting - had he just put "I don't like that, it's all personal taste, y'know" - then that would have been tedious.
NOW... are you really saying that a mark of great poetry is that it cheers us up?

Bish. You asked, okay.....( I've never used the expression "y'know", by the way, so why quote it?)

nowhere did I say that was a quote of YOU - that's just paranoia!

as for the rest - by all means tell us what you like - knock yourself out!

I won't find it very interesting though, unless you can give me some kind of an insight as to "why"... and that's what I said - merely my view that WtW's posts about what he likes and dislikes are more interesting than yours - for this reason alone, that he tries to give an insight into "why". If you choose not to - that's fine - but sometimes you hint at it - such as when you said that you like Khayyam's "philosophy" - then left us all a bit high and dry as to what you mean by that because you are unwilling to tell us what you think Khayyam's philosophy is - instead telling us to go read his stuff and work it out for ourselves - yet, even if we did, we'd still be none the wiser as to why YOU like it...

[TANGODANCER]

indeed - BUT - I have a fair idea WHY WtW despises "if" so because he has had a go at putting into words WHY he likes or dislikes poetry - what it is that turns him on or turns him off.
That's why WtW's posts in this thread are interesting - had he just put "I don't like that, it's all personal taste, y'know" - then that would have been tedious.
NOW... are you really saying that a mark of great poetry is that it cheers us up?

Bish. You asked, okay.....( I've never used the expression "y'know", by the way, so why quote it?)

nowhere did I say that was a quote of YOU - that's just paranoia!

Do behave Bish. I answered you at length and you pick that out.

[thebish]

indeed - BUT - I have a fair idea WHY WtW despises "if" so because he has had a go at putting into words WHY he likes or dislikes poetry - what it is that turns him on or turns him off.
That's why WtW's posts in this thread are interesting - had he just put "I don't like that, it's all personal taste, y'know" - then that would have been tedious.
NOW... are you really saying that a mark of great poetry is that it cheers us up?

Bish. You asked, okay.....( I've never used the expression "y'know", by the way, so why quote it?)

nowhere did I say that was a quote of YOU - that's just paranoia!

Do behave Bish. I answered you at length and you pick that out.

(I have - u didn't wait for the edit )

[TANGODANCER]

Have a nice day Bish. I'm off to build my model ship......cos I'm worth it.

[thebish]

Have a nice day Bish. I'm off to build my model ship......cos I'm worth it.

but what makes you LIKE building model ships Tango - does it move you?

[Prufrock]

Bish. You asked, okay.....( I've never used the expression "y'know", by the way, so why quote it?)

Human nature is the answer to it all, tedious or no. Read any thread topic on this forum and you get a mixed bag of agreement, uncertainty, conflicting viws and sometimes blatant disageement. That's because personal taste in almost everything is as different as individuals. Having a view doesn't mean you are in need of psychiatry to explain why. We've all seen what life has to offer, some more than others; we've all experienced the emotions it kicks off in us. Are you afraid of just admitting you just like something because it just simply appeals to you? Yes, I like positive things and thing that make me happy. No, I don't like things that tell me of life's myseries , I've experienced enough of them and we're constantly surrounded by reminders that life isn't that great bowl of cherries that some would have us believe. We're intelligent enough to know good from bad and happiness from misery, surely. We and do cope, come what may.

What we don't have to do is serenade the greatness (and I use the term very loosely indeed) of so-called artsist who basically just air their angst and dissatisfaction in the supposed name of art, regardless of whether that be from hundreds of years ago or yesterday. . WTW more or less slated "Charge of the Light Brigade ( a story-poem based on history) and IF ( an attempt to get man to better himself positively) as rubbish to two of us for just stating we liked them.. That's wrong. It's also just his view, not some great truth we all missed. One of the most succesful threads on here has been the "What are you playing tonight?". That's because anyone can state their preferences of various types of music without being slated for their choices, or having to explain the reasons for their personal preferences. Art, be it poetry, painting, sculpture or whatever, is no different. Liking something without an inquest is the simplest of emotions. Maybe I'm just a simple man. In reality, those great poets and artists almost all lived the lives they chose or choose. How many of them dared to just be happy with it? Is Van Gogh regarded as a great artist because of the joy he brought in his paintings, or because he was a manic depressive in reality?

I know Pru's personal favourite poem, T.S.Elliot's "The Love Song of J.Alfred Prufrock" is thought great by him. I don't take him to task for liking what I consider rambling and badly written twaddle, indeed I wouldn't have mentioned it but for your question. It's personal liking and I don't ask him to explain why he likes it. It's his choice and I respect it, but I don't have to like it. Debate is fine if you have a point to make. I'd rather just have conversation in the main that accepts people's choices without an inquisition. Is that really so wrong or nieve?

That's the bit I don't get. You seem to be defensive. Why shouldn't you ask me? It's not a question of justification, no matter why I tell you I like it, you can't tell me I'm wrong. Similarly back to you, but it's interesting conversation to talk about what and why we like or dislike certain works.

[William the White]

Sharon Olds reads two of her famous odes at USA poetry festival.

The first is Ode to a Composting Toilet. The second is Ode to a Tampon.

http://www.vidoemo.com/yvideo.php?i=NDB ... l-9-26-08=

Recommended to Tango so he can have a fit of apoplectic rage at what passes for poetry these days.