Today I'm angry about.....

[Hoboh]

Israel have muslim countries all around them, now some of them like the UAE are quite 'moderate' compared to Iran, but surely it should be applauded that they can & do defend themselves?

Hobo - terrible for you to actually pick a side, and then realise it's the wrong one.

which part of boarding aid/protest ships in international waters and shooting dead at least 10 civilians before imprisoning 600 people makes Israel the "right" side?

and - how is killing 1400 (mostly) civilian men women and children a "right" response to the death of 7 (mainly) Israeli army personel in an ongoing conflict?

bish, both sides have and continue to kill "non combatants" bit strange I know coming from me but both sides have a legitimate arguement, Isreals right to exist with security and the Palastinian right to cohabit and share in the land and resources. Killing each other serves no purpose, they really should talk genuinly about the path forwards and the rest of us facillitate this but keep our noses out.
The hardliners need abandoning and left to fester in their cesspit of hate.

as make no mistake had they gone into Isreali waters then the consequencies would have been of their own making, they didn't!

[Bruce Rioja]

Isreal!

I don't take any sides in the middle East conflict between the Arabs and Isreal

All that I can gather (including listening to a bit from the ship's captain's dialogue) was that he was asked to dock in Ashdod and was told that if they did then the goods would then be forwarded to Gaza by Israel, and that if they didn't believe them then the Egyptian army would take get them there. Yon Pugwash declined and all hell let loose!

[TANGODANCER]

bish, both sides have and continue to kill "non combatants" bit strange I know coming from me but both sides have a legitimate arguement, Isreals right to exist with security and the Palastinian right to cohabit and share in the land and resources. Killing each other serves no purpose, they really should talk genuinly about the path forwards and the rest of us facillitate this but keep our noses out.
The hardliners need abandoning and left to fester in their cesspit of hate.

as make no mistake had they gone into Isreali waters then the consequencies would have been of their own making, they didn't!

See, there were these Jewish slaves, ( later the Israelites) and another lot, the Egyptians, and the Jews escaped from slavery to the Egyptians and fled. That was over three thousand years ago and they're still at it with each other to this day. They've had more talks than Oprah Winfrey and it's never solved a thing.

[William the White]

Isreal!

I don't take any sides in the middle East conflict between the Arabs and Isreal

All that I can gather (including listening to a bit from the ship's captain's dialogue) was that he was asked to dock in Ashdod and was told that if they did then the goods would then be forwarded to Gaza by Israel, and that if they didn't believe them then the Egyptian army would take get them there. Yon Pugwash declined and all hell let loose!

Just Israel's usual dissembling, Bruce... Let them end the blockade as demanded by UN resolution, and the problem is diminished... the Israelis want the problems to continue.. they need a hostile enemy so they can carry on with the seizure of land and the murderous use of their armed supremacy and dictate to the Palestinians who they are allowed to elect...

Israel, according to the UN allows in less than one third of the humanitarian aid necessary to enable Gaza inhabitants to survive and, crucially, start to rebuild the land reduced to rubble by the heroic israeli military...

You are right - the flotilla had a political purpose - to expose the inhumanity of the blockade. Good, it is an outrage that needs exposing. The bravery of these people has led to bloodshed once more at the hands of the Israelis. That is the risk they took, but didn't seek or expect.

Edit - I was too generous to Israel, according to the BBC news website the UN says Israel allows in less than one quarter of the humanitarian aid needed... This is what the blockade means... and what the flotilla was opposing and trying to expose...

[Hoboh]

Isreal!

I don't take any sides in the middle East conflict between the Arabs and Isreal

All that I can gather (including listening to a bit from the ship's captain's dialogue) was that he was asked to dock in Ashdod and was told that if they did then the goods would then be forwarded to Gaza by Israel, and that if they didn't believe them then the Egyptian army would take get them there. Yon Pugwash declined and all hell let loose!

Just Israel's usual dissembling, Bruce... Let them end the blockade as demanded by UN resolution, and the problem is diminished... the Israelis want the problems to continue.. they need a hostile enemy so they can carry on with the seizure of land and the murderous use of their armed supremacy and dictate to the Palestinians who they are allowed to elect...

Israel, according to the UN allows in less than one third of the humanitarian aid necessary to enable Gaza inhabitants to survive and, crucially, start to rebuild the land reduced to rubble by the heroic israeli military...

You are right - the flotilla had a political purpose - to expose the inhumanity of the blockade. Good, it is an outrage that needs exposing. The bravery of these people has led to bloodshed once more at the hands of the Israelis. That is the risk they took, but didn't seek or expect.

Edit - I was too generous to Israel, according to the BBC news website the UN says Israel allows in less than one quarter of the humanitarian aid needed... This is what the blockade means... and what the flotilla was opposing and trying to expose...

Insert stupidity and I'd agree

William answer me this
Why is it right for these folk to try and break the law of a country by illeagally entering that countrys sovereign waters and interfere in another country yet when governments do exactly the same as you laud this lot for doing all the lefties turn out to protest?
Same rule for all as I see it or like BWFCI loves accusing me of. you only pick and choose what is the "right" policy for your views?

[Lord Kangana]

There are several (unresolved) UN resolutions regarding just exactly what constitutes sovereign Israeli territory. As it stands, the "settlement" of Palestine (the weasel words given to the worlds media by Israel, under threat of legal challenge and accusations of anti-semitism) is classed as an occupation. Just to put this into context Hobo, when the Germans rolled in to France in 1940, would it have been satisfactory for the world to refer to this as "settlement"?

[thebish]

Israel have muslim countries all around them, now some of them like the UAE are quite 'moderate' compared to Iran, but surely it should be applauded that they can & do defend themselves?

Hobo - terrible for you to actually pick a side, and then realise it's the wrong one.

which part of boarding aid/protest ships in international waters and shooting dead at least 10 civilians before imprisoning 600 people makes Israel the "right" side?

and - how is killing 1400 (mostly) civilian men women and children a "right" response to the death of 7 (mainly) Israeli army personel in an ongoing conflict?

bish, both sides have and continue to kill "non combatants" bit strange I know coming from me but both sides have a legitimate arguement, Isreals right to exist with security and the Palastinian right to cohabit and share in the land and resources. Killing each other serves no purpose, they really should talk genuinly about the path forwards and the rest of us facillitate this but keep our noses out.
The hardliners need abandoning and left to fester in their cesspit of hate.

as make no mistake had they gone into Isreali waters then the consequencies would have been of their own making, they didn't!

hmmm...yes - there are civilian casualties on both sides.

would you care to guess how many Israeli civilians have been killed by palestinians in the last (say) 3 years (though - you can work to a timescale of your choice)

of course - 1 is too many, but several factors are surely pertinent...

1. scale - compare the number of Israeli civilian dead with the number of palestinian civilian dead
2. if the state of palestine is to be blockaded and denied weapons then why should Israel be allowed weapons (including NUKES) - if Isral has a divine right to defend herself - then why has palestine not got the same right?
3. if the palestinian action is "terrorist" - the why is the Israeli action not "massive state terrorism"
4. the israeli govt bulldozes homes and olive groves indiscriminately - shoots schoolchildren and crushes peace-workers with bulldozers (look up rachel corrie) - builds walls that annexe land illegally and (effectively) lay seige to a legitimate state.
5. the palestinians fire the odd rocket into Israel - which is wrong - but is hardly parallel to Israel's misdemeanors
6. the french resistance killed people - it's what countries under occupation do - yet you'd struggle to find many people condemning their acivity as anything like parallel to Hitler's invading forces.


Israel ride roughshod over far more UN resolutions than Iraq ever did....

[William the White]

Isreal!

I don't take any sides in the middle East conflict between the Arabs and Isreal

All that I can gather (including listening to a bit from the ship's captain's dialogue) was that he was asked to dock in Ashdod and was told that if they did then the goods would then be forwarded to Gaza by Israel, and that if they didn't believe them then the Egyptian army would take get them there. Yon Pugwash declined and all hell let loose!

Just Israel's usual dissembling, Bruce... Let them end the blockade as demanded by UN resolution, and the problem is diminished... the Israelis want the problems to continue.. they need a hostile enemy so they can carry on with the seizure of land and the murderous use of their armed supremacy and dictate to the Palestinians who they are allowed to elect...

Israel, according to the UN allows in less than one third of the humanitarian aid necessary to enable Gaza inhabitants to survive and, crucially, start to rebuild the land reduced to rubble by the heroic israeli military...

You are right - the flotilla had a political purpose - to expose the inhumanity of the blockade. Good, it is an outrage that needs exposing. The bravery of these people has led to bloodshed once more at the hands of the Israelis. That is the risk they took, but didn't seek or expect.

Edit - I was too generous to Israel, according to the BBC news website the UN says Israel allows in less than one quarter of the humanitarian aid needed... This is what the blockade means... and what the flotilla was opposing and trying to expose...

Insert stupidity and I'd agree

William answer me this
Why is it right for these folk to try and break the law of a country by illeagally entering that countrys sovereign waters and interfere in another country yet when governments do exactly the same as you laud this lot for doing all the lefties turn out to protest?
Same rule for all as I see it or like BWFCI loves accusing me of. you only pick and choose what is the "right" policy for your views?

It is right because the blockade is wrong, condemned as wrong by the UN, which demands it be lifted and humanitarian aid be allowed to enter Gaza. The flotilla was trying to break the blockade. They knew it was highly likely that Israel would use violence to stop them - so this was a brave act, an attempt to implement a UN resolution.

If this was stupid then the resistance to Nazi occupation was stupid. They broke no laws, not of Israel, not international laws. The assault on the flotilla was an act of piracy, the arrest and detention of some 700 people was illegal.

If you support international law, then condemn Israel.

If you don't, you could always try nuking somebody.

[Gary the Enfield]

What's the UN's stance on the USA's continued blockade of Cuba?

[Hoboh]

Isreal!

I don't take any sides in the middle East conflict between the Arabs and Isreal

All that I can gather (including listening to a bit from the ship's captain's dialogue) was that he was asked to dock in Ashdod and was told that if they did then the goods would then be forwarded to Gaza by Israel, and that if they didn't believe them then the Egyptian army would take get them there. Yon Pugwash declined and all hell let loose!

Just Israel's usual dissembling, Bruce... Let them end the blockade as demanded by UN resolution, and the problem is diminished... the Israelis want the problems to continue.. they need a hostile enemy so they can carry on with the seizure of land and the murderous use of their armed supremacy and dictate to the Palestinians who they are allowed to elect...

Israel, according to the UN allows in less than one third of the humanitarian aid necessary to enable Gaza inhabitants to survive and, crucially, start to rebuild the land reduced to rubble by the heroic israeli military...

You are right - the flotilla had a political purpose - to expose the inhumanity of the blockade. Good, it is an outrage that needs exposing. The bravery of these people has led to bloodshed once more at the hands of the Israelis. That is the risk they took, but didn't seek or expect.

Edit - I was too generous to Israel, according to the BBC news website the UN says Israel allows in less than one quarter of the humanitarian aid needed... This is what the blockade means... and what the flotilla was opposing and trying to expose...

Insert stupidity and I'd agree

William answer me this
Why is it right for these folk to try and break the law of a country by illeagally entering that countrys sovereign waters and interfere in another country yet when governments do exactly the same as you laud this lot for doing all the lefties turn out to protest?
Same rule for all as I see it or like BWFCI loves accusing me of. you only pick and choose what is the "right" policy for your views?

It is right because the blockade is wrong, condemned as wrong by the UN, which demands it be lifted and humanitarian aid be allowed to enter Gaza. The flotilla was trying to break the blockade. They knew it was highly likely that Israel would use violence to stop them - so this was a brave act, an attempt to implement a UN resolution.

If this was stupid then the resistance to Nazi occupation was stupid. They broke no laws, not of Israel, not international laws. The assault on the flotilla was an act of piracy, the arrest and detention of some 700 people was illegal.

If you support international law, then condemn Israel.

If you don't, you could always try nuking somebody.

I think I did condemn Israel when I alluded to them commiting an act of Piracy in this case, I also condemn the militent Palestinians who want The jews wiped off the face of the earth. Actually do you not think it rather distasteful comparing the Jews to the Nazi's? I know a lot of what they do to be morally and legally indefenceable but I feel the "you commited a bigger atrocity than they did" just does not help, nor does the interference of forign powers nor politcally motivated "Aid workers".

Btw I wouldn't Nuke either of them in this situation, just pray one day they find a path to co exist

[Hoboh]

Israel have muslim countries all around them, now some of them like the UAE are quite 'moderate' compared to Iran, but surely it should be applauded that they can & do defend themselves?

Hobo - terrible for you to actually pick a side, and then realise it's the wrong one.

which part of boarding aid/protest ships in international waters and shooting dead at least 10 civilians before imprisoning 600 people makes Israel the "right" side?

and - how is killing 1400 (mostly) civilian men women and children a "right" response to the death of 7 (mainly) Israeli army personel in an ongoing conflict?

bish, both sides have and continue to kill "non combatants" bit strange I know coming from me but both sides have a legitimate arguement, Isreals right to exist with security and the Palastinian right to cohabit and share in the land and resources. Killing each other serves no purpose, they really should talk genuinly about the path forwards and the rest of us facillitate this but keep our noses out.
The hardliners need abandoning and left to fester in their cesspit of hate.

as make no mistake had they gone into Isreali waters then the consequencies would have been of their own making, they didn't!

hmmm...yes - there are civilian casualties on both sides.

would you care to guess how many Israeli civilians have been killed by palestinians in the last (say) 3 years (though - you can work to a timescale of your choice)

of course - 1 is too many, but several factors are surely pertinent...

1. scale - compare the number of Israeli civilian dead with the number of palestinian civilian dead
I think you answered that yourself above
2. if the state of palestine is to be blockaded and denied weapons then why should Israel be allowed weapons (including NUKES) - if Isral has a divine right to defend herself - then why has palestine not got the same right?
Western interference? OUR past indiference to the palestinians? the fact all your neighbours etheir openly or on the QT would not shed a tear should a black hole appear were you once was (and that includes all the palestinian inhabitants btw)
3. if the palestinian action is "terrorist" - the why is the Israeli action not "massive state terrorism"
Most of it is
4. the israeli govt bulldozes homes and olive groves indiscriminately - shoots schoolchildren and crushes peace-workers with bulldozers (look up rachel corrie) - builds walls that annexe land illegally and (effectively) lay seige to a legitimate state.
So the answer is people with bomb vests on blowing up diners and kids is it?
5. the palestinians fire the odd rocket into Israel - which is wrong - but is hardly parallel to Israel's misdemeanors
I think you may find it's a bit more than the "odd" rocket
6. the french resistance killed people - it's what countries under occupation do - yet you'd struggle to find many people condemning their acivity as anything like parallel to Hitler's invading forces.
Another reference to Hitler! surely you cannot equate the Iraelis with the Nazis? What they do is wrong, what they both do is wrong yet the innocent suffer on both sides because of the actions of a few. Makes me rather happy we can be shut of our leaders when they go bad.

Israel ride roughshod over far more UN resolutions than Iraq ever did....
Have they? not many get passed due to the interference of others

[Big_Girl_Oral_Explosion]

5. the palestinians fire the odd rocket into Israel - which is wrong - but is hardly parallel to Israel's misdemeanors

Oh dear! Now I can see that this particular BWFC forum is "left leaning" from this and other political debates, but there comes a point when comments such as above need to be challenged. So parking the fact that the odd rocket was more like hundreds how many "odd" rockets would you accept on towns in the UK from an enemy whose doctrine insists the total anhilation of your people?

How many before you use your strength of arms to react as Israel has done and still does to survive?

Let me tell you that if you were in charge and it even got above 2 or 3 and you decided to wring your hands as you expect them to do you would be strung up and rightly so!

[Hoboh]

5. the palestinians fire the odd rocket into Israel - which is wrong - but is hardly parallel to Israel's misdemeanors

Oh dear! Now I can see that this particular BWFC forum is "left leaning" from this and other political debates, but there comes a point when comments such as above need to be challenged. So parking the fact that the odd rocket was more like hundreds how many "odd" rockets would you accept on towns in the UK from an enemy whose doctrine insists the total anhilation of your people?

How many before you use your strength of arms to react as Israel has done and still does to survive?

Let me tell you that if you were in charge and it even got above 2 or 3 and you decided to wring your hands as you expect them to do you would be strung up and rightly so!

I think you'll find actually its a fairly balanced forum.

(Or maybe unbalanced in some cases )

[Prufrock]

5. the palestinians fire the odd rocket into Israel - which is wrong - but is hardly parallel to Israel's misdemeanors

Oh dear! Now I can see that this particular BWFC forum is "left leaning" from this and other political debates, but there comes a point when comments such as above need to be challenged. So parking the fact that the odd rocket was more like hundreds how many "odd" rockets would you accept on towns in the UK from an enemy whose doctrine insists the total anhilation of your people?

How many before you use your strength of arms to react as Israel has done and still does to survive?

Let me tell you that if you were in charge and it even got above 2 or 3 and you decided to wring your hands as you expect them to do you would be strung up and rightly so!

It's not quite that simple though is it? For a start what have the innocent civilians, children in some cases got to do with the terrorists? I think it quite presumptuous for you to imply every Palestinian demands the complete annihilation of Israel and all it's citizens. They understandably feel a bit miffed that some new blokes have come and taken over what was their country. Both sides have valid claims to the land, and both sides are guilty of awful attrocities, but there is a difference between independant terrorists, and state sanctioned, indiscriminate violence, especially when that state wants to be part of the global community.

[Hoboh]

5. the palestinians fire the odd rocket into Israel - which is wrong - but is hardly parallel to Israel's misdemeanors

Oh dear! Now I can see that this particular BWFC forum is "left leaning" from this and other political debates, but there comes a point when comments such as above need to be challenged. So parking the fact that the odd rocket was more like hundreds how many "odd" rockets would you accept on towns in the UK from an enemy whose doctrine insists the total anhilation of your people?

How many before you use your strength of arms to react as Israel has done and still does to survive?

Let me tell you that if you were in charge and it even got above 2 or 3 and you decided to wring your hands as you expect them to do you would be strung up and rightly so!

It's not quite that simple though is it? For a start what have the innocent civilians, children in some cases got to do with the terrorists? I think it quite presumptuous for you to imply every Palestinian demands the complete annihilation of Israel and all it's citizens. They understandably feel a bit miffed that some new blokes have come and taken over what was their country. Both sides have valid claims to the land, and both sides are guilty of awful attrocities, but there is a difference between independant terrorists, and state sanctioned, indiscriminate violence, especially when that state wants to be part of the global community.

You took your flamin' time getting in and simplyfing my points

[William the White]

5. the palestinians fire the odd rocket into Israel - which is wrong - but is hardly parallel to Israel's misdemeanors

Oh dear! Now I can see that this particular BWFC forum is "left leaning" from this and other political debates, but there comes a point when comments such as above need to be challenged. So parking the fact that the odd rocket was more like hundreds how many "odd" rockets would you accept on towns in the UK from an enemy whose doctrine insists the total anhilation of your people?

How many before you use your strength of arms to react as Israel has done and still does to survive?

Let me tell you that if you were in charge and it even got above 2 or 3 and you decided to wring your hands as you expect them to do you would be strung up and rightly so!

I doubt the figure of hundreds of rockets from Gaza. Could you give your source, please?

The bish said firing rockets into israel was wrong, but the Israeli response is wildy disproportionate, as is the appalling death toll. That is not a 'left leaning' thing to say - it's accurate, moderate and a view shared by many countries internationally.

William hague's speech today in Parliament gives hope that at last a British government may stop being so craven in the face of continued Israeli atrocity and so cowardly in its arse-licking support of america's blind decision to let the Israeli tail wag the superpower dog.

Hague is not notably left leaning.

[Montreal Wanderer]

What's the UN's stance on the USA's continued blockade of Cuba?

Surely it is not a blockade, despite the Cubans calling the trade embargo el bloqueo or some such. It is an embargo on Americans trading with Cuba but everyone else is free to come and go. Indeed, I went this year as do many Canadians. Any sovereign state is entitled not to trade with another. It is only a blockade if they attempt to force everyone else to do the same. Not that I think the embargo is a sensible thing to do (unless you depend on votes in Florida to get elected) but it is scarcely the UN's business.

[Hoboh]

5. the palestinians fire the odd rocket into Israel - which is wrong - but is hardly parallel to Israel's misdemeanors

Oh dear! Now I can see that this particular BWFC forum is "left leaning" from this and other political debates, but there comes a point when comments such as above need to be challenged. So parking the fact that the odd rocket was more like hundreds how many "odd" rockets would you accept on towns in the UK from an enemy whose doctrine insists the total anhilation of your people?

How many before you use your strength of arms to react as Israel has done and still does to survive?

Let me tell you that if you were in charge and it even got above 2 or 3 and you decided to wring your hands as you expect them to do you would be strung up and rightly so!

I doubt the figure of hundreds of rockets from Gaza. Could you give your source, please?

The bish said firing rockets into israel was wrong, but the Israeli response is wildy disproportionate, as is the appalling death toll. That is not a 'left leaning' thing to say - it's accurate, moderate and a view shared by many countries internationally.

William hague's speech today in Parliament gives hope that at last a British government may stop being so craven in the face of continued Israeli atrocity and so cowardly in its arse-licking support of america's blind decision to let the Israeli tail wag the superpower dog.

Hague is not notably left leaning.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pa ... rael,_2008

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE50G2QU20090117

[InsaneApache]

Just a quick look at those nice peaceful aid workers.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcb ... r_embedded

A picture paints a thousand words....

Wow, just wow....

June 19 2008 2378 rockets and mortars were launched. This is more than the 1,639 attacks launched in all of 2007

I can think of NO country in the world that would put up with that.

[TANGODANCER]

Rather than generalising the Israelis or Palestinians, look to the leaders of both. Armies take orders from government and the results open the gates to fanatics. And thus it ever was. It's all territorial and that makes a solution almost impossible. People settle and won't be uprooted from their homes by government decisions, Northern Ireland, Gibraltar being just two examples of it not just being as simple as saying "Okay, it's yours, we'll move out". The Brits in Northern Ireland consider it their home, and 99% of Gibraltans voted to stay British in a poll a few years ago when there was talk of handing it back to Spain. Until boundaries are finally agreed in a sensible way, it will just go on and get worse.