The Religion Thread

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Thought I'd start a new thread as the 'religion' debate seems to be taking over the General Chit Chat thread, and I'm fascinated to hear more...
(And anyway I was always told not to discuss religion, politics and football - and religion is the only one missing on this forum, so just for balance here it is) The Religion Thread:

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Anyway, first question (kind of directed at theBish).
If, in the doctrine called Universal Salvation, all souls are finally reunited with God no matter what their earthly sins have been, why bother to have a church? Why mediate, or present a point of view, or even talk about Christ if some sadistic savage who has never heard of him and spends his life slaughtering innocents is accepted into heaven on equal terms with someone who has spent their life worshipping Christ and leading a good life? What meaning does having a church or minister confer to those who believe such a doctrine?

[2399]

I wanted to start my own Church once.

But the Person who I was going to name it after toured here and I didn't go see him so now I feel I can't.

Hope he tours again

[Gooner Girl]

I'm not thebish and don't believe in exactly the same things he does re heaven and hell though the core of our Christian faith is the same and I'm pretty sure our views on why go to church aren't too far apart (though sure he will be along to disagree with that later)

For me though, the main points of church is:

1. Time out to meet with God - time devoted just to him in a busy life, to worship him, talk to him, to hear more about how to live a life pleasing to him, to learn more from the bible. You could do all those things at home (and should) but I find giving up my Sunday morning guarantees I always will at least once a week.

2. To meet with other believers, support, encourage, help each other. Practically as well as emotionally. Practically - After I had my twins our church bought us an evening meal every day for over a month. Emotionally - a couple of friends from my church came along to my 6 week old nephews funeral to show support even though they don't know my sister and brother in law.

Nothing to do with heaven or hell!

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I'm not thebish and don't believe in exactly the same things he does re heaven and hell though the core of our Christian faith is the same and I'm pretty sure our views on why go to church aren't too far apart (though sure he will be along to disagree with that later)

For me though, the main points of church is:

1. Time out to meet with God - time devoted just to him in a busy life, to worship him, talk to him, to hear more about how to live a life pleasing to him, to learn more from the bible. You could do all those things at home (and should) but I find giving up my Sunday morning guarantees I always will at least once a week.

2. To meet with other believers, support, encourage, help each other. Practically as well as emotionally. Practically - After I had my twins our church bought us an evening meal every day for over a month. Emotionally - a couple of friends from my church came along to my 6 week old nephews funeral to show support even though they don't know my sister and brother in law.

Nothing to do with heaven or hell!

A bit like a social club then. So are you a universal salvationist as well? If so, it's that particular aspect that baffles me as to why bother to to live 'a life pleasing to him' if in the end everybody gets to sit round the campfire eating crumpets with god.
Why did god even bother sponsoring his son if in the end his son is meaningless at the end times?

[thebish]

Thought I'd start a new thread as the 'religion' debate seems to be taking over the General Chit Chat thread, and I'm fascinated to hear more...
(And anyway I was always told not to discuss religion, politics and football - and religion is the only one missing on this forum, so just for balance here it is) The Religion Thread:

I have just attempted an answer to this on the general chit-chat thread in response to Monty.. if it still doesn't make sense - then by all means come back!

[Gooner Girl]

No leopard spot. My first point has nothing to do with anyone else. It's about me and my relationship with God.

And I wouldn't call myself a universal Salvationist, my view of heaven and hell has changed from what it used to be somewhat, but I'm more of the opinion we won't actually know exactly what God has in store for us that way til we get there so I don't have a firmly fixed opinion on hell, whereas I used to. Bish makes a strong argument for it not being a firey furnace all non believers are sent to but I do believe that whether you are a christian on earth or not does have some heavenly impact though I don't know exactly what.

[General Mannerheim]

bunch of freaks

[Lost Leopard Spot]

To theBish: "as for other religions - if you're asking - I'm also a universalist!" - how's that work then? Are you saying, for example, that a Shintoist is wrong, his ideas ultimately mean nothing, and that just to show how generous you are you'll still be welcoming the Shintoist into your heaven, even though he utterly rejects the idea of one God?

And are you a universalist when it comes to all creatures, or is it only homo sapiens that are 'saved'?

[Gooner Girl]

, or is it only homo sapiens that are 'saved'?

Heaven is full of good things. Therefore, my dog that died recently will be there. Looking forward to throwing a tennis ball for him in the sky Maybe in heaven he might actually bring it back to me?!

[Lost Leopard Spot]

, or is it only homo sapiens that are 'saved'?

Heaven is full of good things. Therefore, my dog that died recently will be there. Looking forward to throwing a tennis ball for him in the sky Maybe in heaven he might actually bring it back to me?!

I doubt it, he'll be too busy chasing cats.

[Bijou Bob]

, or is it only homo sapiens that are 'saved'?

Heaven is full of good things. Therefore, my dog that died recently will be there. Looking forward to throwing a tennis ball for him in the sky Maybe in heaven he might actually bring it back to me?!

I doubt it, he'll be too busy chasing cats.

I was planning something similar myself.

[Montreal Wanderer]

I'll move it over here. Why the KJV, bish? Simply because that was the version when I was young - that's what I had to read in religion at school, that's what was read out every week at church. I like it now because of the beauty of some of the language. The accuracy of the translation, or lack thereof, was never an issue with me and I never read many of the newer versions. I could never hope to win an argument with you on sacred texts - all I felt was that the concept of Hell was an essential component of Christianity. I am a little shaky on Universalism in the after life, though I can see the concept may have some problematic elements.

I don't believe in either Heaven or Hell. Thus I don't believe I will be judged for what I have done after this life. To the extent that I have tried to live a righteous life, it was not therefore in the expectation of a reward. It is more because I accepted certain ethical and moral dictates. Some of these, no doubt, stem from the teachings of Christ, but also from many others. I also have some respect for the rule of law in a well-ordered society.

[thebish]

To theBish: "as for other religions - if you're asking - I'm also a universalist!" - how's that work then? Are you saying, for example, that a Shintoist is wrong, his ideas ultimately mean nothing, and that just to show how generous you are you'll still be welcoming the Shintoist into your heaven, even though he utterly rejects the idea of one God?

And are you a universalist when it comes to all creatures, or is it only homo sapiens that are 'saved'?

I am saying that in an encounter with God we will all turn out to be "wrong" - and as such it will be a painful encounter... for me, for your friend the shintoist, for you, for everyone... As long as a shintoist's ideas lead him/her in the direction of a life well lived - then they do not "mean nothing" - wherever did I say anything remotely close to that??

Thanks for the apparent promotion - but I won't be welcoming anyone onto heaven by my "generosity"!

as for other creatures - I'm agnostic on that - can't say i've given it much thought, but then, i don't give heaven and the afterlife much thought full-stop - for now it doesn't really interest me that much...

[thebish]

I'll move it over here. Why the KJV, bish? Simply because that was the version when I was young - that's what I had to read in religion at school, that's what was read out every week at church. I like it now because of the beauty of some of the language. The accuracy of the translation, or lack thereof, was never an issue with me and I never read many of the newer versions. I could never hope to win an argument with you on sacred texts - all I felt was that the concept of Hell was an essential component of Christianity. I am a little shaky on Universalism in the after life, though I can see the concept may have some problematic elements.

I don't believe in either Heaven or Hell. Thus I don't believe I will be judged for what I have done after this life. To the extent that I have tried to live a righteous life, it was not therefore in the expectation of a reward. It is more because I accepted certain ethical and moral dictates. Some of these, no doubt, stem from the teachings of Christ, but also from many others. I also have some respect for the rule of law in a well-ordered society.

oh yes - the KJV has a certain beauty of language and phrase that has deeply influenced our language - with you there 100% I was merely surprised that in the context of a discussion about what the bible does or doesn't say - and you quoting it at me - you would deliberately and proudly choose the dodgiest version!!

it'd be like a transfer story appearing on here - and us discussing it - only it was in the spanish media..

and you decided to argue its veracity on the basis of the online babelfish spanish-english translation against someone who had a professional UN translator's version to hand - yet claiming yours was more poetic!

anyway - whether you expect it/like it or not - my own belief is that after death you will have an encounter with God that leaves you awestruck and humbled and a little bit disappointed at how far you have fallen short of what your life COULD have been - and so will I - and neither of us will have much of a claim to having been right or wrong - we'll just retire to the heavenly tavern and raise a toast to how it wasn't really like either of us had expected it to be...

[Montreal Wanderer]

I'll move it over here. Why the KJV, bish? Simply because that was the version when I was young - that's what I had to read in religion at school, that's what was read out every week at church. I like it now because of the beauty of some of the language. The accuracy of the translation, or lack thereof, was never an issue with me and I never read many of the newer versions. I could never hope to win an argument with you on sacred texts - all I felt was that the concept of Hell was an essential component of Christianity. I am a little shaky on Universalism in the after life, though I can see the concept may have some problematic elements.

I don't believe in either Heaven or Hell. Thus I don't believe I will be judged for what I have done after this life. To the extent that I have tried to live a righteous life, it was not therefore in the expectation of a reward. It is more because I accepted certain ethical and moral dictates. Some of these, no doubt, stem from the teachings of Christ, but also from many others. I also have some respect for the rule of law in a well-ordered society.

oh yes - the KJV has a certain beauty of language and phrase that has deeply influenced our language - with you there 100% I was merely surprised that in the context of a discussion about what the bible does or doesn't say - and you quoting it at me - you would deliberately and proudly choose the dodgiest version!!

it'd be like a transfer story appearing on here - and us discussing it - only it was in the spanish media..

and you decided to argue its veracity on the basis of the online babelfish spanish-english translation against someone who had a professional UN translator's version to hand - yet claiming yours was more poetic!

anyway - whether you expect it/like it or not - my own belief is that after death you will have an encounter with God that leaves you awestruck and humbled and a little bit disappointed at how far you have fallen short of what your life COULD have been - and so will I - and neither of us will have much of a claim to having been right or wrong - we'll just retire to the heavenly tavern and raise a toast to how it wasn't really like either of us had expected it to be...

If you are correct that encounter would definitely be an 'oops' moment for me. However, it is reassuring there will be a tavern for recovery.

[thebish]

If you are correct that encounter would definitely be an 'oops' moment for me. However, it is reassuring there will be a tavern for recovery.

I doubt any of us will have much of a leg to stand on in terms of "I told you so"... fortunately - the recovery tavern is the bit I know for sure!

[Prufrock]

I thought the idea of fire and brimstone 'hell' was far from universal. Thought it was a mainly Catholic thing, like transubstantiation and the Immaculate Conception. That a not insubstantial, more liberal side of the Anglican/Orthodox lot tended to be more wishy washy purgatory-style temporary hell.

Anyway, as a neutral I can say neither one (hell) nor the other (everyone in heaven) sounds more or less unbelievable .

[Lost Leopard Spot]

To theBish: "as for other religions - if you're asking - I'm also a universalist!" - how's that work then? Are you saying, for example, that a Shintoist is wrong, his ideas ultimately mean nothing, and that just to show how generous you are you'll still be welcoming the Shintoist into your heaven, even though he utterly rejects the idea of one God?

And are you a universalist when it comes to all creatures, or is it only homo sapiens that are 'saved'?

I am saying that in an encounter with God we will all turn out to be "wrong" - and as such it will be a painful encounter... for me, for your friend the shintoist, for you, for everyone... As long as a shintoist's ideas lead him/her in the direction of a life well lived - then they do not "mean nothing" - wherever did I say anything remotely close to that??

Thanks for the apparent promotion - but I won't be welcoming anyone onto heaven by my "generosity"!

as for other creatures - I'm agnostic on that - can't say i've given it much thought, but then, i don't give heaven and the afterlife much thought full-stop - for now it doesn't really interest me that much...

The point I was trying to get across here is that a true Shitoist does not believe in God, and therefore any encounter with God would be shocking to the Shintoist, and also hence why I was promoting it as your 'heaven'. It was you that said "as for other religions - I'm also a universalist!" and thus why I used Shinto as an example... so you see you are being generous, because you're inviting other people of widely different religions (or I'm presuming, no religion at all) who hold in some cases opposite beliefs to your own, to be accepted into 'your' heaven and be 'done unto' by your idea of what God will do.

[thebish]

The point I was trying to get across here is that a true Shitoist does not believe in God, and therefore any encounter with God would be shocking to the Shintoist, and also hence why I was promoting it as your 'heaven'. It was you that said "as for other religions - I'm also a universalist!" and thus why I used Shinto as an example... so you see you are being generous, because you're inviting other people of widely different religions (or I'm presuming, no religion at all) who hold in some cases opposite beliefs to your own, to be accepted into 'your' heaven and be 'done unto' by your idea of what God will do.

yes - I understand your point that such an encounter will be a bit of a shock to someone who doesn't believe there is a God... but then it'll be a bit of a shock to everyone - I will also turn out to be wrong (as will you) - and (as I said) we will all be changed by the encounter.

thing is - having had the encounter, then my belief is that none of us will turn away - having had the encounter we will all choose to walk into whatever heaven looks like.

again - as I said - nothing to do with MY generosity - it is GOD who we will encounter... the invitation to heaven is not mine to make or give...

we are all free to believe whatever we like - it's just that I don't believe (as you seem to want/need me to believe!) that there is a set of choices we can make that would assign is to eternal torture and punishment...