The Religion Thread

[Lost Leopard Spot]

The point I was trying to get across here is that a true Shitoist does not believe in God, and therefore any encounter with God would be shocking to the Shintoist, and also hence why I was promoting it as your 'heaven'. It was you that said "as for other religions - I'm also a universalist!" and thus why I used Shinto as an example... so you see you are being generous, because you're inviting other people of widely different religions (or I'm presuming, no religion at all) who hold in some cases opposite beliefs to your own, to be accepted into 'your' heaven and be 'done unto' by your idea of what God will do.

yes - I understand your point that such an encounter will be a bit of a shock to someone who doesn't believe there is a God... but then it'll be a bit of a shock to everyone - I will also turn out to be wrong (as will you) - and (as I said) we will all be changed by the encounter.

thing is - having had the encounter, then my belief is that none of us will turn away - having had the encounter we will all choose to walk into whatever heaven looks like.

again - as I said - nothing to do with MY generosity - it is GOD who we will encounter... the invitation to heaven is not mine to make or give...

we are all free to believe whatever we like - it's just that I don't believe (as you seem to want/need me to believe!) that there is a set of choices we can make that would assign is to eternal torture and punishment...

Fair enough, I am beginning to understand the concept of Universal Salvation, which is the reason behind my questioning you.
But (to be devil's advocate ) on a secondary point in your answer, where did I sy that I wanted/needed you to believe in Hell. I think if you go back over my posts I made it quite plain that I don't believe in either Heaven or Hell, so I certainly don't expect or want you to do so. I was just trying to tease out the basics of an idea (universal salvation) that I'd never come across before.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I thought the idea of fire and brimstone 'hell' was far from universal. Thought it was a mainly Catholic thing, like transubstantiation and the Immaculate Conception. That a not insubstantial, more liberal side of the Anglican/Orthodox lot tended to be more wishy washy purgatory-style temporary hell.

Anyway, as a neutral I can say neither one (hell) nor the other (everyone in heaven) sounds more or less unbelievable .

Unbeliever! There are no neutrals in the war between good and evil. Choose.

[thebish]

But (to be devil's advocate ) on a secondary point in your answer, where did I sy that I wanted/needed you to believe in Hell. I think if you go back over my posts I made it quite plain that I don't believe in either Heaven or Hell, so I certainly don't expect or want you to do so. I was just trying to tease out the basics of an idea (universal salvation) that I'd never come across before.

I know you don't - you did make that clear. What does come across to me - from you and from Monty - is that you don't have a problem with me believing what I do (as I don't with you) - but somehow me NOT believing in Hell is an issue for you! so it SOUNDS like, for some reason, you would rather (If I am going to persist with these christian beliefs) I behave like those other christians and believe in hell!

Clearly my interpretation of the christian faith is not the most mainstream - but I am by no means an isolated minority of one! it's just that my liberal wing of the church is a bit pants at raving on R5 phone-ins.

my church has always ordained women the same as men (my missus is a minister too and has been for as long as me in exactly the same capacity) - my church has no problem with homosexuality - we do conduct blessings for civil partnerships - my church doesn't think that christians are being persecuted in the UK and run out of town by rampant political-correctness-gone-mad... my church doesn't picket abortion clinics... we're not particularly newsworthy..

[Lord Kangana]

I believe that makes you a liberal fascist. So, you see, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. You fascist.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

What does come across to me - from you and from Monty - is that you don't have a problem with me believing what I do (as I don't with you) - but somehow me NOT believing in Hell is an issue for you! so it SOUNDS like, for some reason, you would rather (If I am going to persist with these christian beliefs) I behave like those other christians and believe in hell!

OK, so I now get the universal salvation thing, and the no condemnation to an eternity of torture etc. which leaves the last question from me on this particular aspect. If your particular Christian branch doesn't believe in Hell, does that mean that you've ejected all the concommitent paraphenalia that goes with it: purgatory, limbo, Original Sin, devils, Satan, fallen angels, the Apocalypse, Judgement Day, the Revelation of St. John the Divine, the Four Horsemen, 666, the Beast, exorcism, bell book and candle?

[Montreal Wanderer]

What does come across to me - from you and from Monty - is that you don't have a problem with me believing what I do (as I don't with you) - but somehow me NOT believing in Hell is an issue for you! so it SOUNDS like, for some reason, you would rather (If I am going to persist with these christian beliefs) I behave like those other christians and believe in hell!

OK, so I now get the universal salvation thing, and the no condemnation to an eternity of torture etc. which leaves the last question from me on this particular aspect. If your particular Christian branch doesn't believe in Hell, does that mean that you've ejected all the concommitent paraphenalia that goes with it: purgatory, limbo, Original Sin, devils, Satan, fallen angels, the Apocalypse, Judgement Day, the Revelation of St. John the Divine, the Four Horsemen, 666, the Beast, exorcism, bell book and candle?

Actually much of this 'paraphernalia' is subsequent Catholic dogma. The interpretation of original sin arose after Pelagius (a man I admire) lost a debate with St. Augustine (Hippo not Canterbury) in the fifth century. I guess the bish has also interpreted things in his way. I had simply thought to be Christian one had to accept a concept of Hell. I now have to accept the fact that I was wrong. Indeed, I hope the bish is correct.

[Andy Waller]

What does come across to me - from you and from Monty - is that you don't have a problem with me believing what I do (as I don't with you) - but somehow me NOT believing in Hell is an issue for you! so it SOUNDS like, for some reason, you would rather (If I am going to persist with these christian beliefs) I behave like those other christians and believe in hell!

OK, so I now get the universal salvation thing, and the no condemnation to an eternity of torture etc. which leaves the last question from me on this particular aspect. If your particular Christian branch doesn't believe in Hell, does that mean that you've ejected all the concommitent paraphenalia that goes with it: purgatory, limbo, Original Sin, devils, Satan, fallen angels, the Apocalypse, Judgement Day, the Revelation of St. John the Divine, the Four Horsemen, 666, the Beast, exorcism, bell book and candle?

I couldn't do an eternity of that. Not with my knees.

[Montreal Wanderer]

What does come across to me - from you and from Monty - is that you don't have a problem with me believing what I do (as I don't with you) - but somehow me NOT believing in Hell is an issue for you! so it SOUNDS like, for some reason, you would rather (If I am going to persist with these christian beliefs) I behave like those other christians and believe in hell!

OK, so I now get the universal salvation thing, and the no condemnation to an eternity of torture etc. which leaves the last question from me on this particular aspect. If your particular Christian branch doesn't believe in Hell, does that mean that you've ejected all the concommitent paraphenalia that goes with it: purgatory, limbo, Original Sin, devils, Satan, fallen angels, the Apocalypse, Judgement Day, the Revelation of St. John the Divine, the Four Horsemen, 666, the Beast, exorcism, bell book and candle?

I couldn't do an eternity of that. Not with my knees.

I expect they let poets off with doing the waltz.

[thebish]

OK, so I now get the universal salvation thing, and the no condemnation to an eternity of torture etc. which leaves the last question from me on this particular aspect. If your particular Christian branch doesn't believe in Hell, does that mean that you've ejected all the concommitent paraphenalia that goes with it:


purgatory, limbo - never part of my tradition - Catholic nonsense the kind of thing that Luther launched the Reformation for..

Original Sin, - was always nonsense! It's this that necessitated the lunatic mis-translations we were talking about earlier in order to go through hoops to try to show that jesus was not touched by so-called "original sin" - as it (to put it crudely) was thought of as a sexually transmitted disease... if mary was a virgin - then Jesus didn't catch it...

it only takes a quick glance at Genesis chapter one to see that "original BLESSING" is actually the concept they should have grasped... God constantly declares "it is good!"

devils, Satan, fallen angels, - these ideas a very very complicated and stem from Hebrew apocalyptic literature - but - not as popularly conceived... My own belief is that Satan is not a person/being/individual entity - but I DO believe there is what you might dramatically call a satanic force - or "evil" in the world - and that a lot of that is institutional - the systems and forces and powers that overarch individual human beings and communities and control their lives... institutions are not neutral... I guess the most often recognition of this is when the phrase "institutional racism" began to be used... (as I have recommended to Tango - the very best exposition of this language - and the only really proper and rigourous study of all the cultural and literary connotations of all this "powers & principalities" in the New Testament is Walter Wink's "Naming the Powers" trilogy.. I can lend you a copy if you are up or some serious research... it is an eye-opener though...)

the Apocalypse, Judgement Day, the Revelation of St. John the Divine, the Four Horsemen, 666, the Beast, - these are all words and phrases from the book of revelation - which, contrary to popular (and religious!) misconception is nothing whatsoever to do with end-times or the end of the world... it is Jewish apocolyptic literature - deeply and almost impenetrably symbolic - but NOT about the end of the world... looking for "the beast" or the number 666 is a waste of time - unless you want to make some cash from a horror movie...

exorcism, - not really sure what i think about this - i think i am 99% sure it is mostly bunkum - but 1% - hmmmm... a wee bit agnostic - and open to the idea that there is weird stuff out there that I just don't understand.

bell book - I don't know what that is!

and candle? - I can confirm I believe in candles - I have some at home - some of them aromatic!

[TANGODANCER]

Bell book and candle is an excommunication phrase. It's also a film with James Stewart, Kim Novak and a cat called Pyewacket.

[Hoboh]

Warning belief in religion can kill!

[Beefheart]

I reckon religion is basically fine. Not for me though.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

OK, so I now get the universal salvation thing, and the no condemnation to an eternity of torture etc. which leaves the last question from me on this particular aspect. If your particular Christian branch doesn't believe in Hell, does that mean that you've ejected all the concommitent paraphenalia that goes with it:


purgatory, limbo - never part of my tradition - Catholic nonsense the kind of thing that Luther launched the Reformation for..

Original Sin, - was always nonsense! It's this that necessitated the lunatic mis-translations we were talking about earlier in order to go through hoops to try to show that jesus was not touched by so-called "original sin" - as it (to put it crudely) was thought of as a sexually transmitted disease... if mary was a virgin - then Jesus didn't catch it...

it only takes a quick glance at Genesis chapter one to see that "original BLESSING" is actually the concept they should have grasped... God constantly declares "it is good!"

devils, Satan, fallen angels, - these ideas a very very complicated and stem from Hebrew apocalyptic literature - but - not as popularly conceived... My own belief is that Satan is not a person/being/individual entity - but I DO believe there is what you might dramatically call a satanic force - or "evil" in the world - and that a lot of that is institutional - the systems and forces and powers that overarch individual human beings and communities and control their lives... institutions are not neutral... I guess the most often recognition of this is when the phrase "institutional racism" began to be used... (as I have recommended to Tango - the very best exposition of this language - and the only really proper and rigourous study of all the cultural and literary connotations of all this "powers & principalities" in the New Testament is Walter Wink's "Naming the Powers" trilogy.. I can lend you a copy if you are up or some serious research... it is an eye-opener though...)

the Apocalypse, Judgement Day, the Revelation of St. John the Divine, the Four Horsemen, 666, the Beast, - these are all words and phrases from the book of revelation - which, contrary to popular (and religious!) misconception is nothing whatsoever to do with end-times or the end of the world... it is Jewish apocolyptic literature - deeply and almost impenetrably symbolic - but NOT about the end of the world... looking for "the beast" or the number 666 is a waste of time - unless you want to make some cash from a horror movie...

exorcism, - not really sure what i think about this - i think i am 99% sure it is mostly bunkum - but 1% - hmmmm... a wee bit agnostic - and open to the idea that there is weird stuff out there that I just don't understand.

bell book - I don't know what that is!

and candle? - I can confirm I believe in candles - I have some at home - some of them aromatic!

So basically, the short answer is Yes you've chucked all the paraphenalia. To which I'm glad. Religion is so much better at its simplest.
And TangoDancer is correct in that Bell, book, and candle is a Roman Catholic rite of exorcism (I'm surprised you didn't know that )

[thebish]

So basically, the short answer is Yes you've chucked all the paraphenalia. To which I'm glad. Religion is so much better at its simplest.
And TangoDancer is correct in that Bell, book, and candle is a Roman Catholic rite of exorcism (I'm surprised you didn't know that )

you obviously have a deeper Catholic knowledge than me - but having looked it up I now see where it has been referenced in all sorts of places - and now some things make sense that didn't before in wtf people were talking about with bell, book and candle!

anyway - having now read the ceremony of excommunication - then I can confidently say that Neither I nor my branch of the church would ever participate in such a ceremony!

it does strike me that there are folk on here that would like a kind of equivalent ceremony for Owen Coyle to be excommunicated from the club..

not bell, book and candle - but whistle, ball and shorts??

[Lost Leopard Spot]

[thebish]

in fact I have taken the trouble to adapt the ceremony for such a purpose should the need ever arise....

This ceremony will involve thebish, with 12 immortal TW-forumites, reciting an oath on at the centre spot:

"We separate him, together with his toady accomplices and abettors, from the precious stadium of the Reebok and from the society of all Bolton fans; we exclude him from the Barclays Premier League and we declare him excommunicate and anathema; we judge him damned, with Megson and all the reprobate, to eternal fire until he shall recover himself from the toils of the ping-pong table and return to amendment and to 3-5-1."

After reciting this the immortal TW-forumites shall respond "So be it!" Thebish will blow a whistle to evoke game-over finality, kick a ball out of the stadium to symbolise the ex-manager's separation from the club and burn a pair of shorts just for the hell of it.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

But alas, in the year of the Championship 2012 we are afflicted by the Great Schism and another sect has arisen: the Coylites

Our Manager, which art in t'dugout
Coyle be thy name
thy formation come
thy tactics done
utilising 4-4-2
Give us this weekend our weekly match
And yellow card our fouls
as we'd red card them that foul against us
And lead us not into offside
but deliver us some goals

For thine is the pitch,
the tackles, and the passes,
for 45 minutes and then another 45 minutes
Amen

[thebish]

And TangoDancer is correct in that Bell, book, and candle is a Roman Catholic rite of exorcism (I'm surprised you didn't know that )

well - I know enough to know that it is not the rite of exorcism!!! it is the ceremony of excommunication! ner!

[Lost Leopard Spot]

And TangoDancer is correct in that Bell, book, and candle is a Roman Catholic rite of exorcism (I'm surprised you didn't know that )

well - I know enough to know that it is not the rite of exorcism!!! it is the ceremony of excommunication! ner!

Oops.
I always thought it was the exorcism ritual, but no; having wikipedia'd it just now you are right.
(Still references the devil and his minions though.)

[TANGODANCER]

And TangoDancer is correct in that Bell, book, and candle is a Roman Catholic rite of exorcism (I'm surprised you didn't know that )

well - I know enough to know that it is not the rite of exorcism!!! it is the ceremony of excommunication! ner!

To please be noted that I said that and not "excorcism". Just to keep the record straight.