The Religion Thread

[Lost Leopard Spot]

The argument, as I've said, isn't whether you could but more like was it probable. When you say he did a fair bit of wandering I've got to point out that you can see the desert from Jerusalem and that all specifically quoted places where Jesus was stated to be in the bible lie within a circle of 45 miles radius.

I don't want to get into a silly argument as I agree it would be highly improbable - Jesus as son of God is improbable to me tbh. However in the interest of facts Nazareth is well over 60 miles from Jerusalem...

I'm with you theologically, mathematically however, you are wrong: viz a circle of 45 miles radius gives a diameter of 90 miles across, and therefore Nazareth to Jerusalem sits well inside the circle.
And to pre-empt another objection, where (I think in Luke but it might be Matthew) in one Gospel he travelled to Egypt and in the other he travelled to Nazereth it has been pretty thoroughly demonstrated that 'Egypt' is a mistranslation from a transliteration of Hebrew/aramaic Mish'Raim to Misri (Greek) equals Musri (Greek for Egypt). Mish'Raim being the tax district in which Nazareth lies.

Oh, mathematically. All right - how about Capernaum, which is 99.7 miles from Jerusalem (John 2:12).

That's in winding up and down Holy Land miles... in good old English as the crow flies miles it's 89.7 miles

[thebish]

That's in winding up and down Holy Land miles... in good old English as the crow flies miles it's 89.7 miles

ahhh - but there's a little-known short-cut via the B161 past the Little Chef and under the motorway bridge... you avoid the pilgrimage traffic that way...

[Lost Leopard Spot]

That's in winding up and down Holy Land miles... in good old English as the crow flies miles it's 89.7 miles

ahhh - but there's a little-known short-cut via the B161 past the Little Chef and under the motorway bridge... you avoid the pilgrimage traffic that way...

Although to be fair it's slower that way because of all the crowds gawping at Ream in the Little Chef.

[Montreal Wanderer]

The argument, as I've said, isn't whether you could but more like was it probable. When you say he did a fair bit of wandering I've got to point out that you can see the desert from Jerusalem and that all specifically quoted places where Jesus was stated to be in the bible lie within a circle of 45 miles radius.

I don't want to get into a silly argument as I agree it would be highly improbable - Jesus as son of God is improbable to me tbh. However in the interest of facts Nazareth is well over 60 miles from Jerusalem...

I'm with you theologically, mathematically however, you are wrong: viz a circle of 45 miles radius gives a diameter of 90 miles across, and therefore Nazareth to Jerusalem sits well inside the circle.
And to pre-empt another objection, where (I think in Luke but it might be Matthew) in one Gospel he travelled to Egypt and in the other he travelled to Nazereth it has been pretty thoroughly demonstrated that 'Egypt' is a mistranslation from a transliteration of Hebrew/aramaic Mish'Raim to Misri (Greek) equals Musri (Greek for Egypt). Mish'Raim being the tax district in which Nazareth lies.

Oh, mathematically. All right - how about Capernaum, which is 99.7 miles from Jerusalem (John 2:12).

That's in winding up and down Holy Land miles... in good old English as the crow flies miles it's 89.7 miles

I'm not sure I accept your crow, but e'en so Bethlehem is several miles south of Jerusalem so outside the circle that includes Capernaum. Still, to end all argument, did not Jesus go to Caesarea Philippi (Mattew 16:13; Mark 8:27). He also went to Tyre and Sidon (Matthew 15:21; Mark 7:24. Sidon is 123.35 miles as the crow flies from Jerusalem, plus another six miles for Bethlehem. How will the leopard escape?

[Bruce Rioja]

Ask Moses. He probably went there in his Triumph.

[William the White]

The argument, as I've said, isn't whether you could but more like was it probable. When you say he did a fair bit of wandering I've got to point out that you can see the desert from Jerusalem and that all specifically quoted places where Jesus was stated to be in the bible lie within a circle of 45 miles radius.

I don't want to get into a silly argument as I agree it would be highly improbable - Jesus as son of God is improbable to me tbh. However in the interest of facts Nazareth is well over 60 miles from Jerusalem...

I'm with you theologically, mathematically however, you are wrong: viz a circle of 45 miles radius gives a diameter of 90 miles across, and therefore Nazareth to Jerusalem sits well inside the circle.
And to pre-empt another objection, where (I think in Luke but it might be Matthew) in one Gospel he travelled to Egypt and in the other he travelled to Nazereth it has been pretty thoroughly demonstrated that 'Egypt' is a mistranslation from a transliteration of Hebrew/aramaic Mish'Raim to Misri (Greek) equals Musri (Greek for Egypt). Mish'Raim being the tax district in which Nazareth lies.

Is it really? It's certainly Arabic for Egypt.

[TANGODANCER]

The Glastonbury legends are all based aound his uncle ( Joseph of Arimathea) who owned tin mines and thus, was a trader. Ships would also offer passage to paying passengers who just wished to visit other lands, no, or is that too improbable? It's all hypothetical, but one theory is as good as another as no one really knows the truth of it. "Bollox" isn't much of an argument really.

no... one theory is NOT as good as another! A theory built on a tottering pile of supposition, guesswork, made-up stuff and mistranslation is not as good as a theory which is not built on such guff....

i know you like your Grail conspiracy stuff - but...

for your Jesus=Arthur bollox - look up a certain Ralph Ellis - he'll keep you amused for days!

That's just a load of smoke of an answer based on opinionism. I never mentioned Grail conspiracies ( although I've probably read far more than you on the topic) nor even professed much of an opinion on any of it. Any view is better than just the bollox one.

really - it's not! cos if Jesus didn't walk on our mountains-green - then the bollox view is entirely correct - and I am still minded to believe that given there is no even closely contemporaneous documentary reference at all the the contrary - then, he didn't - hence - bollox.

it wasn't a smokey answer - it was a very precise answer!! you asked for a reference to someone who talked about Jesus being King Arthur - I gave you one!!!

I wasn't referring to the link, but the first part of your answer, the relevant word being "if"

[thebish]

I wasn't referring to the link, but the first part of your answer, the relevant word being "if"

and the relevant answer being: did he bollox...

[Prufrock]

but Jerusalem has always been one of my favourite hymns and I'll sing it where I like.

and the answer to the question at the start of verse one is.... no - did they bollox!

I read recently a story of somebody describing to their father how Jerusalem was fantastic (and possibly should be the national anthem, though I may have made that up). Said father replied it was a good song, but it asks four questions, the answer to all of which is 'No'.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

The argument, as I've said, isn't whether you could but more like was it probable. When you say he did a fair bit of wandering I've got to point out that you can see the desert from Jerusalem and that all specifically quoted places where Jesus was stated to be in the bible lie within a circle of 45 miles radius.

I don't want to get into a silly argument as I agree it would be highly improbable - Jesus as son of God is improbable to me tbh. However in the interest of facts Nazareth is well over 60 miles from Jerusalem...

I'm with you theologically, mathematically however, you are wrong: viz a circle of 45 miles radius gives a diameter of 90 miles across, and therefore Nazareth to Jerusalem sits well inside the circle.
And to pre-empt another objection, where (I think in Luke but it might be Matthew) in one Gospel he travelled to Egypt and in the other he travelled to Nazereth it has been pretty thoroughly demonstrated that 'Egypt' is a mistranslation from a transliteration of Hebrew/aramaic Mish'Raim to Misri (Greek) equals Musri (Greek for Egypt). Mish'Raim being the tax district in which Nazareth lies.

Is it really? It's certainly Arabic for Egypt.

It's ancient Greek for "Egypt" (not sure what modern day Greek is for Egypt), it too like the modern Arabic is derived directly from Ancient Egyptian which is distantly related to Arabic.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I'm not sure I accept your crow, but e'en so Bethlehem is several miles south of Jerusalem so outside the circle that includes Capernaum. Still, to end all argument, did not Jesus go to Caesarea Philippi (Mattew 16:13; Mark 8:27). He also went to Tyre and Sidon (Matthew 15:21; Mark 7:24. Sidon is 123.35 miles as the crow flies from Jerusalem, plus another six miles for Bethlehem. How will the leopard escape?

He doesn't escape, he's trapped in a cage not of his own making.
I tried to find the miserable SOB who penned what I quoted but couldn't find him on my shelves - he's a German who wrote about ancient languages and decipherment, one of his books is called 'voices in stone' or similar. Anyway, for years I'd accepted his figure without actually checking it myself, and as a result the leopard has spotty egg all over his face. I spent a far too considerably large proportion of last night compiling from first principles a list of all named places connected with where Jesus was (excluding the forementioned Egypt) from the new Testament and, using GoogleEarth, the best fit circle I could squeeze him into had a radius of 76 miles. I therefore concede defeat . Looks like he was a wanderer and therefore he might, just might, have had a youthful trip over to enjoy the surf at Polperro and ride the donkeys at Penzance .

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I'm not sure I accept your crow, but e'en so Bethlehem is several miles south of Jerusalem so outside the circle that includes Capernaum. Still, to end all argument, did not Jesus go to Caesarea Philippi (Mattew 16:13; Mark 8:27). He also went to Tyre and Sidon (Matthew 15:21; Mark 7:24. Sidon is 123.35 miles as the crow flies from Jerusalem, plus another six miles for Bethlehem. How will the leopard escape?

He doesn't escape, he's trapped in a cage not of his own making.
I tried to find the miserable SOB who penned what I quoted but couldn't find him on my shelves - he's a German who wrote about ancient languages and decipherment, one of his books is called 'voices in stone' or similar. Anyway, for years I'd accepted his figure without actually checking it myself, and as a result the leopard has spotty egg all over his face. I spent a far too considerably large proportion of last night compiling from first principles a list of all named places connected with where Jesus was (excluding the forementioned Egypt) from the new Testament and, using GoogleEarth, the best fit circle I could squeeze him into had a radius of 76 miles. I therefore concede defeat . Looks like he was a wanderer and therefore he might, just might, have had a youthful trip over to enjoy the surf at Polperro and ride the donkeys at Penzance .

Postscript, found the book, it's by Ernst Doblhofer a biblical scholar.
The mists of time had concatenated in my head all manner of things he said, but to put the record straight - his conjecture was about the origins and believability of both Jesus as a historical person and the reliability of the Gospels in portraying the man: in short he contends (through what looks to me like reasoned argument, although he loses me on some of the specialist linguistic stuff) that the most unadulterated of the syncretic Gospels is Luke and that Luke shows Jesus to have been a local Galilean who had a ministry confined to that region and who was later persuaded to undertake a messianic journey to Jerusalem and the region thereabouts in the latter part of his life. It is in this context that Doblhofer talks about the 45 mile radius thing.
The leopard, having found a gap, wriggles free.

[TANGODANCER]

I read recently a story of somebody describing to their father how Jerusalem was fantastic (and possibly should be the national anthem, though I may have made that up). Said father replied it was a good song, but it asks four questions, the answer to all of which is 'No'.

When I first came into contact with Jerusalem (back in ancient times ) I was but fourteen. I should imagine what drew me to it was the gusto with which it was sung, (although, at that age, all those bows and spears and things might have had some impact). I've lived since with all the controversies( did he bollox) etc without ever caring much for views on yeh or nay, although always baffled as to what Catholics could object to in it (probably because they didn't write it). It's a hymn first and foremost and a joyous one. End of. Believe what you will. I'm happy to belt it out with the same enthusiasm that I sing that most beautiful of our own accepted hymns, Adeste Fidelis (although most sing the English version now) at Christmas time. Glorious music in praise of the Lord.

If asked "did those feet" ever reach Bolton, I'd have to say, apart from WTW's version, did they bollox.

[Prufrock]

I read recently a story of somebody describing to their father how Jerusalem was fantastic (and possibly should be the national anthem, though I may have made that up). Said father replied it was a good song, but it asks four questions, the answer to all of which is 'No'.

When I first came into contact with Jerusalem (back in ancient times ) I was but fourteen. I should imagine what drew me to it was the gusto with which it was sung, (although, at that age, all those bows and spears and things might have had some impact). I've lived since with all the controversies( did he bollox) etc without ever caring much for views on yeh or nay, although always baffled as to what Catholics could object to in it (probably because they didn't write it). It's a hymn first and foremost and a joyous one. End of. Believe what you will. I'm happy to belt it out with the same enthusiasm that I sing that most beautiful of our own accepted hymns, Adeste Fidelis (although most sing the English version now) at Christmas time. Glorious music in praise of the Lord.

If asked "did those feet" ever reach Bolton, I'd have to say, apart from WTW's version, did they bollox.

Don't get me wrong Tango, I think it's ace too, just thought it was a brilliant put down!

[Montreal Wanderer]

I'm not sure I accept your crow, but e'en so Bethlehem is several miles south of Jerusalem so outside the circle that includes Capernaum. Still, to end all argument, did not Jesus go to Caesarea Philippi (Mattew 16:13; Mark 8:27). He also went to Tyre and Sidon (Matthew 15:21; Mark 7:24. Sidon is 123.35 miles as the crow flies from Jerusalem, plus another six miles for Bethlehem. How will the leopard escape?

He doesn't escape, he's trapped in a cage not of his own making.
I tried to find the miserable SOB who penned what I quoted but couldn't find him on my shelves - he's a German who wrote about ancient languages and decipherment, one of his books is called 'voices in stone' or similar. Anyway, for years I'd accepted his figure without actually checking it myself, and as a result the leopard has spotty egg all over his face. I spent a far too considerably large proportion of last night compiling from first principles a list of all named places connected with where Jesus was (excluding the forementioned Egypt) from the new Testament and, using GoogleEarth, the best fit circle I could squeeze him into had a radius of 76 miles. I therefore concede defeat . Looks like he was a wanderer and therefore he might, just might, have had a youthful trip over to enjoy the surf at Polperro and ride the donkeys at Penzance .

Postscript, found the book, it's by Ernst Doblhofer a biblical scholar.
The mists of time had concatenated in my head all manner of things he said, but to put the record straight - his conjecture was about the origins and believability of both Jesus as a historical person and the reliability of the Gospels in portraying the man: in short he contends (through what looks to me like reasoned argument, although he loses me on some of the specialist linguistic stuff) that the most unadulterated of the syncretic Gospels is Luke and that Luke shows Jesus to have been a local Galilean who had a ministry confined to that region and who was later persuaded to undertake a messianic journey to Jerusalem and the region thereabouts in the latter part of his life. It is in this context that Doblhofer talks about the 45 mile radius thing.
The leopard, having found a gap, wriggles free.

I'm not sure we can trust even this weakish attempt to wriggle free since these arguments require accuracy to the point of pedantry. Apart from the fact you should have qualified the assertion with "According to some German linguist's study of Luke..." (where I could have seen your Luke and raised you two evangelists), Ernst Doblhofer was not German.

[Montreal Wanderer]

I read recently a story of somebody describing to their father how Jerusalem was fantastic (and possibly should be the national anthem, though I may have made that up). Said father replied it was a good song, but it asks four questions, the answer to all of which is 'No'.

When I first came into contact with Jerusalem (back in ancient times ) I was but fourteen. I should imagine what drew me to it was the gusto with which it was sung, (although, at that age, all those bows and spears and things might have had some impact). I've lived since with all the controversies( did he bollox) etc without ever caring much for views on yeh or nay, although always baffled as to what Catholics could object to in it (probably because they didn't write it). It's a hymn first and foremost and a joyous one. End of. Believe what you will. I'm happy to belt it out with the same enthusiasm that I sing that most beautiful of our own accepted hymns, Adeste Fidelis (although most sing the English version now) at Christmas time. Glorious music in praise of the Lord.

If asked "did those feet" ever reach Bolton, I'd have to say, apart from WTW's version, did they bollox.

Actually, Tango, it was a poem first and foremost by William Blake, written at the beginning of the nineteenth century. The music did not come for over a century later, when it was adopted as a hymn by many different sects.

[Gary the Enfield]

.... but if God is omnipresent and Jesus is the Son of God made flesh then surely he must have, in some pedantic way, set foot upon England's green and pleasant land?

[Montreal Wanderer]

.... but if God is omnipresent and Jesus is the Son of God made flesh then surely he must have, in some pedantic way, set foot upon England's green and pleasant land?

Assuming he still had feet at the time.... (England not existing for some centuries after Christ was walking about). I seem to recall the feet were on the mountains green, but I'll leave the answer to your complex question to others better qualified to respond.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I'm not sure we can trust even this weakish attempt to wriggle free since these arguments require accuracy to the point of pedantry. Apart from the fact you should have qualified the assertion with "According to some German linguist's study of Luke..." (where I could have seen your Luke and raised you two evangelists), Ernst Doblhofer was not German.

I concede that it is a very weak escape attempt, but that's the nature of the beast... leopards hate being caught. Plus, I was using my memory which I shouldn't have done, not without checking the facts first.
So you win.
(Waddya mean he wasn't German? )

[Gary the Enfield]

.... but if God is omnipresent and Jesus is the Son of God made flesh then surely he must have, in some pedantic way, set foot upon England's green and pleasant land?

Assuming he still had feet at the time.... (England not existing for some centuries after Christ was walking about). I seem to recall the feet were on the mountains green, but I'll leave the answer to your complex question to others better qualified to respond.

Ah, but God is also Omnipotent. He would have known that England WOULD exist. And at some juncture the hills of the pennines were as high as mountains.