Britains Got Talent...

[TANGODANCER]

]

Nobody questioned slavery for years, did it make it right? Your argument that - that's the way it always has been, so that 's the way it should be , is up there with the best 5-year old's arguments - it's just a form of ignorance and bigotry.
The final line deserved the contempt with which it was treated. Are you suggesting that any of those characters are not specifically black or that the story is fundmentally about the dynamics of their race and that of other 'protagonists? There is no paralled between Nancy, who could without any question be black, white, yellow or brown, and Kunta Kinte an african slave, transported to work on cotton plantation in the dramatisation of historical events. Suggesting otherwise is plainly silly.

the "bottom line" is that the colour of nancy is irrelevant whereas that is absolutely not the case in every production, where race can be the core of the plot - as it is in all your examples.

There you go again with your suppositions and meaning-twisting. Don't put words (and utterly wrong ones at that) in my mouth. They are just your interpretations. All the things I mentioned are stories not historical facts or works of reference. I stated that nobody questioned them or wished to change anything about them. Dickens work is the same. There is another novel of the period ( by someone else) which has Fagin specified as a Jew. I hardly think a black Nancy wouldn't have been stated as so.

As to your point about Dickens not illustrating his own work: Quote:

"Oliver Twist (1838) is Charles Dickens' second novel. The book was originally published in Bentley's Miscellany as a serial, in monthly installments that began appearing in the month of February 1837 and continued through April 1839. George Cruikshank provided one steel etching per month to illustrate each installment.[1] Unquote.

I hardly think Cruikshank would have done this without Dickens seeing and approving them.

Finally, I repeat for the umpteenth time: I accept, admitted and stated that Nancy could be played by almost anyone. Until you, or anyone else, proves differently, I'll also continue to see her as a white London tavern wench (she actually worked there in the novel). There is no reason, or evidence, to suggest otherwise. That was/is the whole point of the debate. It wasn't that a black girl couldn't play Nancy, ( it will happen no doubt, as I stated earlier) it was why change accepted norms to suit that? That , surely, is the whim of a producer to be different and not in any way a requirement. Using slavery as an example to counteract that is, to use your own term, just plain silly.

Edited, to counteract you own addition. I did ask for civility. Didn't get it though.

[Worthy4England]

Finally, I repeat for the umpteenth time: I accept, admitted and stated that Nancy could be played by almost anyone. Until you, or anyone else, proves differently, I'll also continue to see her...

Didn't know you were into hooring TD

[TANGODANCER]

Finally, I repeat for the umpteenth time: I accept, admitted and stated that Nancy could be played by almost anyone. Until you, or anyone else, proves differently, I'll also continue to see her...

Didn't know you were into hooring TD

That, allowing for my great age of course, was my final trump card. Blast.

[Worthy4England]

Finally, I repeat for the umpteenth time: I accept, admitted and stated that Nancy could be played by almost anyone. Until you, or anyone else, proves differently, I'll also continue to see her...

Didn't know you were into hooring TD

That, allowing for my great age of course, was my final trump card. Blast.

A Dickensian love story of an illict tryst and of epic proportions just waiting to be penned

[TANGODANCER]

is Oliver really a boy???

Ollivette Twist. Now I really never considered that one.

[communistworkethic]

]

Nobody questioned slavery for years, did it make it right? Your argument that - that's the way it always has been, so that 's the way it should be , is up there with the best 5-year old's arguments - it's just a form of ignorance and bigotry.
The final line deserved the contempt with which it was treated. Are you suggesting that any of those characters are not specifically black or that the story is fundmentally about the dynamics of their race and that of other 'protagonists? There is no paralled between Nancy, who could without any question be black, white, yellow or brown, and Kunta Kinte an african slave, transported to work on cotton plantation in the dramatisation of historical events. Suggesting otherwise is plainly silly.

the "bottom line" is that the colour of nancy is irrelevant whereas that is absolutely not the case in every production, where race can be the core of the plot - as it is in all your examples.

There you go again with your suppositions and meaning-twisting. Don't put words (and utterly wrong ones at that) in my mouth. They are just your interpretations. All the things I mentioned are stories not historical facts or works of reference. I stated that nobody questioned them or wished to change anything about them. Dickens work is the same. There is another novel of the period ( by someone else) which has Fagin specified as a Jew. I hardly think a black Nancy wouldn't have been stated as so.

As to your point about Dickens not illustrating his own work: Quote:

"Oliver Twist (1838) is Charles Dickens' second novel. The book was originally published in Bentley's Miscellany as a serial, in monthly installments that began appearing in the month of February 1837 and continued through April 1839. George Cruikshank provided one steel etching per month to illustrate each installment.[1] Unquote.

I hardly think Cruikshank would have done this without Dickens seeing and approving them.

Finally, I repeat for the umpteenth time: I accept, admitted and stated that Nancy could be played by almost anyone. Until you, or anyone else, proves differently, I'll also continue to see her as a white London tavern wench (she actually worked there in the novel). There is no reason, or evidence, to suggest otherwise. That was/is the whole point of the debate. It wasn't that a black girl couldn't play Nancy, ( it will happen no doubt, as I stated earlier) it was why change accepted norms to suit that? That , surely, is the whim of a producer to be different and not in any way a requirement. Using slavery as an example to counteract that is, to use your own term, just plain silly.

Edited, to counteract you own addition. I did ask for civility. Didn't get it though.

no, no supposition from you at all.

And everyone of your examples clearly was specific to stories of race either by direct historical reference or circumstance, if you don't see that then either you haven't read them or understood them.

I asked a question, no issue of civility, just a question. Again it's your own perception, just like the colour of Nancy.

[CrazyHorse]

[TANGODANCER]

no, no supposition from you at all.

And everyone of your examples clearly was specific to stories of race either by direct historical reference or circumstance, if you don't see that then either you haven't read them or understood them.

I asked a question, no issue of civility, just a question. Again it's your own perception, just like the colour of Nancy.

This very morning, Tango was observed staggering down Oxford Road with a dazed expression on his face. He was heard mumbling:

"I really must stop taking things for granted. I must raise questions, whose relevancy is of secondary importance opposed to another "possible" scenario. Have I got it all wrong? Was Nancy actually a girl of Jamaican or African origin and not just a tavern wench who could disguise herself as Oliver's ( a white boy's ) sister? Was Charles Dickens very lax in not defining this? Was Fagin - a man who surrounded himself with young children and got his hands on Nancy when she was just six years old- actually an old paedophile? Was Bill Sykes really a misunderstood nihilist who thought it was okay to rob and murder? I really should listen to insightful people, with questing minds, who know better than the masses. It's obvious that authors like Charles Dickens left a lot to our imagination and " possibly" didn't actually know what they were talking about.

I really must stop falling into the trap of thinking debates are between reasonable folk who can carry them out impersonally. All these things I must do"

When last seen, said Tango was being bundled into a large van by three men in white coats. It is feared he may never be seen again.

[David Lee's Hair]

The best adaption of Shakespeare I've ever seen was taken completely out of the context of it's original setting. So who care's what colour or creed you decide to make a character.

The show's crap as well

[Worthy4England]

no, no supposition from you at all.

And everyone of your examples clearly was specific to stories of race either by direct historical reference or circumstance, if you don't see that then either you haven't read them or understood them.

I asked a question, no issue of civility, just a question. Again it's your own perception, just like the colour of Nancy.

This very morning, Tango was observed staggering down Oxford Road with a dazed expression on his face. He was heard mumbling:

"I really must stop taking things for granted. I must raise questions, whose relevancy is of secondary importance opposed to another "possible" scenario. Have I got it all wrong? Was Nancy actually a girl of Jamaican or African origin and not just a tavern wench who could disguise herself as Oliver's ( a white boy's ) sister? Was Charles Dickens very lax in not defining this? Was Fagin - a man who surrounded himself with young children and got his hands on Nancy when she was just six years old- actually an old paedophile? Was Bill Sykes really a misunderstood nihilist who thought it was okay to rob and murder? I really should listen to insightful people, with questing minds, who know better than the masses. It's obvious that authors like Charles Dickens left a lot to our imagination and " possibly" didn't actually know what they were talking about.

I really must stop falling into the trap of thinking debates are between reasonable folk who can carry them out impersonally. All these things I must do"

When last seen, said Tango was being bundled into a large van by three men in white coats. It is feared he may never be seen again.

Who the bloody hell has hacked into his account then?

[superjohnmcginlay]

The best adaption of Shakespeare I've ever seen was taken completely out of the context of it's original setting. So who care's what colour or creed you decide to make a character.

The show's crap as well

Whats that then?

[communistworkethic]

no, no supposition from you at all.

And everyone of your examples clearly was specific to stories of race either by direct historical reference or circumstance, if you don't see that then either you haven't read them or understood them.

I asked a question, no issue of civility, just a question. Again it's your own perception, just like the colour of Nancy.

This very morning, Tango was observed staggering down Oxford Road with a dazed expression on his face. He was heard mumbling:

"I really must stop taking things for granted. I must raise questions, whose relevancy is of secondary importance opposed to another "possible" scenario. Have I got it all wrong? Was Nancy actually a girl of Jamaican or African origin and not just a tavern wench who could disguise herself as Oliver's ( a white boy's ) sister? Was Charles Dickens very lax in not defining this? Was Fagin - a man who surrounded himself with young children and got his hands on Nancy when she was just six years old- actually an old paedophile? Was Bill Sykes really a misunderstood nihilist who thought it was okay to rob and murder? I really should listen to insightful people, with questing minds, who know better than the masses. It's obvious that authors like Charles Dickens left a lot to our imagination and " possibly" didn't actually know what they were talking about.

I really must stop falling into the trap of thinking debates are between reasonable folk who can carry them out impersonally. All these things I must do"

When last seen, said Tango was being bundled into a large van by three men in white coats. It is feared he may never be seen again.

oh woe is you. As ever, you're the very worst for all the things you accuse others of; twisting words, making things up and personal insults to name nut three. Then there's the ability to play the victim that'd make a scouser blush. Just my opinion, of course.

[David Lee's Hair]

The best adaption of Shakespeare I've ever seen was taken completely out of the context of it's original setting. So who care's what colour or creed you decide to make a character.

The show's crap as well

Whats that then?

T'was the Merchant of Venice, in a concentration camp, so you had Jews playing all the roles. Seeing anti-semitism, a common view held at the time the play was written, seeing in many countries in the 16th centuury judaism was still banned (all jews were expelled from England in the 13th century - many left to drown on the sandbanks of the thames at high tide) is at the core of the plot it made for an interesting play.

Was only a small time production in Harrogate iirc, but finished with the whole cast being executed by some camp guards placed in the stalls.

[superjohnmcginlay]

The best adaption of Shakespeare I've ever seen was taken completely out of the context of it's original setting. So who care's what colour or creed you decide to make a character.

The show's crap as well

Whats that then?

T'was the Merchant of Venice, in a concentration camp, so you had Jews playing all the roles. Seeing anti-semitism, a common view held at the time the play was written, seeing in many countries in the 16th centuury judaism was still banned (all jews were expelled from England in the 13th century - many left to drown on the sandbanks of the thames at high tide) is at the core of the plot it made for an interesting play.

Was only a small time production in Harrogate iirc, but finished with the whole cast being executed by some camp guards placed in the stalls.

Sounds like a right barrel o' laughs.

[warthog]

Was only a small time production in Harrogate iirc, but finished with the whole cast being executed by some camp guards placed in the stalls.

'Ooh, you beast. How dare you say that about my outfit.'

BANG.

[TANGODANCER]

oh woe is you. As ever, you're the very worst for all the things you accuse others of; twisting words, making things up and personal insults to name nut three. Then there's the ability to play the victim that'd make a scouser blush. Just my opinion, of course.

[Hoboh]

If he was not no longer with us I'm sure Olly' Reed maybe could have helped us out here .

How do we know;

Jesus wasn't a muslim convert?

Jame T Kirk wasn't really colured?

Elvis is really dead?

Gary Megson is a football manager?

Just a thought!

[Worthy4England]

If he was not no longer with us I'm sure Olly' Reed maybe could have helped us out here .

How do we know;

Jesus wasn't a muslim convert?

Jame T Kirk wasn't really colured?

Elvis is really dead?

Gary Megson is a football manager?

Just a thought!

Of this we have no notion. He isn't born for another 200 years....eejet

[Hoboh]

If he was not no longer with us I'm sure Olly' Reed maybe could have helped us out here .

How do we know;

Jesus wasn't a muslim convert?

Jame T Kirk wasn't really colured?

Elvis is really dead?

Gary Megson is a football manager?

Just a thought!

Of this we have no notion. He isn't born for another 200 years....eejet

Whoops sorry forgot I'm not supposed to give away the fact I'm a time traveller and seen things you won't beleive like ;
Gary Megson and Phil Gartside holding aloft both the Champions league and Prem tropheys in 2010 after finishing runners up in the FA cup to Darlington managed by Gazzer!

[communistworkethic]

oh woe is you. As ever, you're the very worst for all the things you accuse others of; twisting words, making things up and personal insults to name nut three. Then there's the ability to play the victim that'd make a scouser blush. Just my opinion, of course.

aye there's none so blind as them that won't see. The first two were in the post I was responding to, the third well let's see.."before the Anti-god appears" also an example of your "I never said anything" approach which Bruce picked up on to get the response "very commie of you". No you don't get personal at all. And that's before we mention your recent spat with Sluffy.

By the way, didn't notice you moaning about West Side Story. Let's face it Shakespeare specifically wrote them as residents of Verona, not hispanics living in New York. By your mark, who did Bernstein and Sondheim think they were second guessing the Bard??? It was perfectly adequte as it was, or had you envisaged them as singing puerto ricans?