The Politics Thread

[Athers]

Panorama tonight was pretty depressing, that must be one of the worst of the worst estates in Britain I assume. Hope anyway.

[Hoboh]

Thought this was a "Tory only" type of policy?

http://news.uk.msn.com/uk/article.aspx? ... =150453470

Long live the socialists

[TANGODANCER]

What a laugh. On Eggheads tonight they played against a team of politicians: four Lib-Dem councilors and one Tory. One of the topics was politics. The politicians lost.

[a1]

What a laugh. On Eggheads tonight they played against a team of politicians: four Lib-Dem councilors and one Tory. One of the topics was politics. The politicians lost.

knowing that programme tho , the "eggheads" wouldve got a question like

"what's missus thatchers first name?"

while the politicans wouldve got a question like

"who lived in 12 downing street in 1899 ?"

15 to 1 FTW

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

So, the Shari'ah law march was called off yesterday.

As with that other video, I can't quite work out whether some of these people are nutjobs or satirical geniuses: http://islam4uk.com/non-muslims/364-buc ... he-shariah

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Article by Dave in the Times today. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/commen ... 919234.ece

I tend towards the Conservative side of the political spectrum, as some of you may be aware, but I have to say I am baffled by what appears to be one of the central pillars of their planned reform of education, which is expressed in this line:

This is where we would focus our most radical reforms. We have said we would bust open the supply of education so that any suitably qualified organisation could set up a new school anywhere they wished.

Does anyone get this? Yes, parents might be willing to play the system and falsify addresses etc. to get their kids into good schools, but I can't see that there are many groups that are desperate to be helped along the way to setting up new schools (i.e. by giving the same amount per pupil as state schools are given). Who are these other people who might want to set up schools, bearing in mind that making a profit is not to be allowed (a major difference to the much-vaunted Swedish experience)?

At any rate, this isn't Sweden, and, for me, we'd be far better off reinstating support for grammar schools, a great vehicle for social mobility in the UK in the last 100 years, as well as the assisted places scheme to put intelligent kids who can't afford the fees through private schools (a scheme scrapped as an offering of red meat to the brainless left in the Labour Party back in 1997).

I was, however, impressed with Cameron's 'big society' speech last week - a promising collection of 'big ideas' that was a pleasing antidote the 'race to the bottom' nature of a lot of politics at the moment.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009 ... ety-speech

Ask not what your country can do for you, and all that...

[ratbert]

The argument exists that some of the groups setting up their own schools under Cambo policies are going to be Islamic/Sharia schools, leading to a religious/ethnic ghettoisation of education. Alternatively it'll lead to class stratification as small, private expensive schools are started by those at the wealthier end of the spectrum. On the one hand you could argue that this lessens the burden on state schools and reduces class sizes, or creates a bit of a dog's breakfast of state schools and small 'cottage' schools outside but with access to the system.

I don't think that model works, grammar schools might if the routes in at primary level were improved so that testing was re-designed with a clearer end product. Like an 11 plus over a longer period of assessment, instead of an hour.

As for the assisted places scheme, that's a nice utopian idea that I doubt works in practice - setting up the 'poor' private school kids for bullying - and wasn't it scrapped because olde Tory grandees didn't want lower class kids in the private school system?

[BWFC_Insane]

Why the hell would anyone want grammar schools?

Why not concentrate on raising the overall school standard rather than creating flagships of any kind?

What we want is a country where education is placed right at the core and where people are encouraged to continue learning and developing throughout life in different ways, at different levels, and in a wider variety of disciplines.

What we don't want is the academic elite being separated and put on a pedestal to become the next set of academic elitist politicians in charge of the country but not really understanding the real issues.

When this country starts worrying about the average more than the academic elite, we might be in a position to actually develop a system that works for the majority.

And this is not reverse snobbery before anyone accuses me of that. I am educated beyond degree level and have enjoyed the benefits of being a part of the "academic elite". But that doesn't mean the system is right or producing the best overall standard it could!

[superjohnmcginlay]

The argument exists that some of the groups setting up their own schools under Cambo policies are going to be Islamic/Sharia schools, leading to a religious/ethnic ghettoisation of education. Alternatively it'll lead to class stratification as small, private expensive schools are started by those at the wealthier end of the spectrum. On the one hand you could argue that this lessens the burden on state schools and reduces class sizes, or creates a bit of a dog's breakfast of state schools and small 'cottage' schools outside but with access to the system.

I don't think that model works, grammar schools might if the routes in at primary level were improved so that testing was re-designed with a clearer end product. Like an 11 plus over a longer period of assessment, instead of an hour.

As for the assisted places scheme, that's a nice utopian idea that I doubt works in practice - setting up the 'poor' private school kids for bullying - and wasn't it scrapped because olde Tory grandees didn't want lower class kids in the private school system?

It did work in practice. I used it.

And no. Labour scrapped it for some reason.

[Lord Kangana]

The idea Cameron has, like most political thought over the last 30 years, is to devolve responsibility away from central government. The FSA gets blamed daily at the moment, PFI puts decision making (and accountability) one step removed from politicians, Ofcom/wat/whateverbolloxtheythinkupnext is all designed to deflect blame from our elected represenatives.

GNER is a wonderful example of this. We've heard nothing in the press of the bellend that took the decisions to give the franchise over to National Express, nor indeed which buffoon decided to privatise the railways, all we hear about is how the private companies running them provide a sh*t service. But of course they do, they're trying to make a profit from a public service, one that was run down for over a decade for yet another cheap sell off.

Why on earth people want us to pay politicians more when they have f*ck all left to do anymore is beyond me.

[thebish]

The idea Cameron has, like most political thought over the last 30 years, is to devolve responsibility away from central government.

people often claim to want this - and yet the same people whine like feck about "postcode lotteries" when a local PCT makes a local decision about allocation of resources that is different to the neighbouring one...

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Why the hell would anyone want grammar schools?

Because they work?

We need elites and should not be afraid of championing them.

Should you ever have the misfortune of appearing on a surgeon's table, Mr Insane, I am sure you will want the person staring down at you to be the member of an elite.

[superjohnmcginlay]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8363702.stm

Im sure she speaks very highly of you as well.

[Puskas]

Why the hell would anyone want grammar schools?

Because they work?

We need elites and should not be afraid of championing them.

Should you ever have the misfortune of appearing on a surgeon's table, Mr Insane, I am sure you will want the person staring down at you to be the member of an elite.

Depends on which elite.

I'd like them to be an intelligent, qualified, competent surgeon, not someone with wealthy parents that have put them through private school and them bought them a place at a posh university.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Why the hell would anyone want grammar schools?

Because they work?

We need elites and should not be afraid of championing them.

Should you ever have the misfortune of appearing on a surgeon's table, Mr Insane, I am sure you will want the person staring down at you to be the member of an elite.

Depends on which elite.

I'd like them to be an intelligent, qualified, competent surgeon, not someone with wealthy parents that have put them through private school and them bought them a place at a posh university.

Absolutely - couldn't agree more. But we shouldn't be afraid of making the case for the former kind, as a result of distaste for the latter.



(Incidentally, I'm not sure what a posh university is, and how places at these places can be bought, but perhaps that's another discussion.)

[Puskas]

Absolutely - couldn't agree more. But we shouldn't be afraid of making the case for the former kind, as a result of distaste for the latter.



(Incidentally, I'm not sure what a posh university is, and how places at these places can be bought, but perhaps that's another discussion.)

So if you're trying to champion intellectual elites, how do grammar schools help?

You're discarding children who, for one reason or another, fail an exam at the age of 11. This will generally favour richer kids, whose parents can afford to send them to "prep schools" where they're taught to pass these exams, rather than poorer (but possibly more intelligent kids) who are taught in state schools.

Also kids with less supportive parents (who, generally, will be from poorer backgrounds) will tend to be lost.

So you're creating an elite of the "latter kind".

[BWFC_Insane]

Why the hell would anyone want grammar schools?

Because they work?

We need elites and should not be afraid of championing them.

Should you ever have the misfortune of appearing on a surgeon's table, Mr Insane, I am sure you will want the person staring down at you to be the member of an elite.

Yes but they are highly trained and specialised in a specific discipline.

Have you ever met many surgeons? To suggest that they are all some "elite" super-intelligent bunch is inaccurate. I'm not even convinced that academic achievement up until say A-Levels is a good measure of the skills that are required to be a top surgeon.

I want a surgeon who is as good as possible at his job. I don't need him to be a literary genius or a member of mensa.

And furthermore why do I want or need a surgeon who has been to a "grammar school". Plenty of surgeons have come from the state school system and don't seem to suffer for it!

[Bruno]

One of my mates is training to be a surgeon, and he's one of the most twitchy and nervous people you could ever hope to meet

[Hoboh]

The problem I see with state schools is dumbing down to the lowest level instead of pushing up to the next.
If you are in a class with a couple of Hoodies and their hangers on who are disruptive what chance do you have of progressing when schools hardly have the tools to dicipline them?
Even expulsion is a dirty word now with the labour goverment determined to keep the little horrors some where they don't want to be.

[BWFC_Insane]

One of my mates is training to be a surgeon, and he's one of the most twitchy and nervous people you could ever hope to meet

Only when he's around you I imagine!