The Great Art Debate

[William the White]

Either way - surely it's not about whether he's happy, Will's happy, you're happy or I'm happy - it's about whether the folk in Bomber Command are happy with their memorial - and generally from the quotes I've seen from them (not that there's many surviving) - the generally seem to be chuffed to bits. Which to me says mission accomplished.

As Sewell points out, there are only a handful of Bomber Command veterans left.

Anyway, as Simon Jenkins said a week or so after Sewell, when you deface one of London's parks with something like that, what is there and why it is there is a valid subject for public debate.

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Well if Simon Jenkins and Brian Sewell both have comments to make, then it must be true. Not that they're paid to give commentary about "stuff" of course.

Aye - when you're prepared to do it for nowt.

Their assessment of the aesthetic quality of this monument is absolutely clear, though, whatever broader discussion they place it in. And they are right.

IMHO.

[TANGODANCER]

Their assessment of the aesthetic quality of this monument is absolutely clear, though, whatever broader discussion they place it in. And they are right.
IMHO.

Since "aesthetic" is pertaining to taste or to beauty Will, can I ask you how the same applies to Picasso's "Guernica" ? I almost know you'll tell me it depects the true horror of war, but the bomber command statue is a memorial to those who died that we may all still be here, not how many of them are left. So, in its own way the memorial is just as truthful as the painting, that's admired by millions ,is it not?

[William the White]

Interesting comparison, Tango.

My stab at answering your question is that Picasso found a way that had never been found before of expressing the horrors of bombing in the form and images of his painting, with its fractures, its arbitrariness, its incomprehensibility, its terror, viciousness, cruelty. It tells many stories, and challenges the viewer to respond to each. It is a masterwork of 20th century art, giving expression to the cruelty of the perpetrators and the vulnerability and sufferings of the victims.

The Bomber Command memorial is a pastiche of two millenia old triumphalism telling no truth about the brave airmen or their victims.

One rewrites art. One defaces a public space.

Other than that they are pretty similar.

[TANGODANCER]

Interesting comparison, Tango.

My stab at answering your question is that Picasso found a way that had never been found before of expressing the horrors of bombing in the form and images of his painting, with its fractures, its arbitrariness, its incomprehensibility, its terror, viciousness, cruelty. It tells many stories, and challenges the viewer to respond to each. It is a masterwork of 20th century art, giving expression to the cruelty of the perpetrators and the vulnerability and sufferings of the victims.

The Bomber Command memorial is a pastiche of two millenia old triumphalism telling no truth about the brave airmen or their victims.

One rewrites art. One defaces a public space.

Other than that they are pretty similar.

Funnily enough Will, I watched a short video -you've probably seen it,and I know you'eve seen the original - On the faces of the airmen I see no triumph, no victorious smiles, no joy, just blank staring eyes, tired and gaunt expressions of weariness and nothingness. I see people who have returned from a mission they never wanted and faces knowing their comrades may not have been so lucky. I see no victory. To say such a monument defaces a public space is a view I can and never will hold with. I suppose we see what we see.

[William the White]

Interesting comparison, Tango.

My stab at answering your question is that Picasso found a way that had never been found before of expressing the horrors of bombing in the form and images of his painting, with its fractures, its arbitrariness, its incomprehensibility, its terror, viciousness, cruelty. It tells many stories, and challenges the viewer to respond to each. It is a masterwork of 20th century art, giving expression to the cruelty of the perpetrators and the vulnerability and sufferings of the victims.

The Bomber Command memorial is a pastiche of two millenia old triumphalism telling no truth about the brave airmen or their victims.

One rewrites art. One defaces a public space.

Other than that they are pretty similar.

Funnily enough Will, I watched a short video -you've probably seen it,and I know you'eve seen the original - On the faces of the airmen I see no triumph, no victorious smiles, no joy, just blank staring eyes, tired and gaunt expressions of weariness and nothingness. I see people who have returned from a mission they never wanted and faces knowing their comrades may not have been so lucky. I see no victory. To say such a monument defaces a public space is a view I can and never will hold with. I suppose we see what we see.

Indeed... I'm surprised you see that - if I had I would have felt a little more comfortable about the monument... But I didn't...

I think it's fair to say that the depiction of the airmen is not triumphant - but the monument certainly is, and consciously so, in the way it mimics classical sources...

[bobo the clown]

I am no admirer of deliberately obscurist work and admit to being very positive about straightforward portrayals.

Also, to declare my hand, my f-in-law was a Navigator & occasional pilot in Bomber Command & flew 80+ 'sorties' and viewed every day he lived from those as lucky bonuses.

Regarding whether their actions were right or wrong we will all have to make our own minds up. But nothing removes the fckg courage of people who flew those things in the belief that what they were doing was right and was bringing forward the end of the war & maybe prevented the VII's doing what they might have & the German development of their own Atomic bombs.

Rearding the monument, as a piece of 'art' I understand that the figures, unemotional and looking drained represent a whole crew having landed and they all face slightly different directions as they trudge away from their plane, some looking backward and into the sky to see which colleagues have also survived.

Personally I find it quite moving. If some others don't then fine.

[TANGODANCER]

Mainly for Will:

Whilst still on the arts topic of this, and admitting freely the timing leaves a whole lot to be desired, because so few are left who remember, this is what I saw. No "Biggles" pumping the air in comic book fashion, just a whole lot of drawn, tired faces, arms down, slumped shoulders and sad memories beautifully represented in bronze. No victory here.

[bobo the clown]

Maybe if it looked a bit moore (ha, see what I did there ?) like this the angst and agony, interwined with regret at lost opportunity, showing empathy with the diverse nature of the tragic reality of their actions would be meet greater more approval ...



Coz, apparently THIS is art.

[William the White]

Tango - I've seen it... I was there last weekend...

Bobo - you really do hate any art that isn't totally literal and representational, don't you? The Yorkshire sculpture park is brilliant.

[TANGODANCER]

Tango - I've seen it... I was there last weekend...Bobo - you really do hate any art that isn't totally literal and representational, don't you? The Yorkshire sculpture park is brilliant.

I know you have and respect that. I was merely saying what I see in it and posted the pics to show my point as opposed to yours. One of the most poignant things I ever saw, that represents the true attitude to war, was in BBC programme of the 1917 British occupation of Jerusalem. A local had daubed on a wall : "British soldiers fxck off home". Underneath, a soldier had written: "Just give us half a fxcking chance mate".

[William the White]

Tango - I've seen it... I was there last weekend...Bobo - you really do hate any art that isn't totally literal and representational, don't you? The Yorkshire sculpture park is brilliant.

I know you have and respect that. I was merely saying what I see in it and posted the pics to show my point as opposed to yours. One of the most poignant things I ever saw, that represents the true attitude to war, was in BBC programme of the 1917 British occupation of Jerusalem. A local had daubed on a wall : "British soldiers fxck off home". Underneath, a soldier had written: "Just give us half a fxcking chance mate".

Tango have a look at what I actually said, not what you think I said... Which includes a post saying I think it's fair to say the depiction of the airmen is not triumphant...

[TANGODANCER]

Tango have a look at what I actually said, not what you think I said... Which includes a post saying I think it's fair to say the depiction of the airmen is not triumphant...

I know exactly what you said Will. .We just disagree on what we see and represent ...as I said. I don't regard this as a work of art in the same way you do. Like the cenotaph on the town hall square, and Dunscar war memorial, it just commemorates those who died. " Lest we forget" etc. Let's just agree to disagree on the why's and wherefore's.

[bobo the clown]

Well, if anyone can explain why the Henry Moore's work, basically huge blobs, is art and not simply piss taking of the gullible and outstanding examples of the Emporer's new clothes I'd be fascinated.

Will, truly, when I look at that the only sub-structures i see are huge virtual gatherings of self proclaimed intellectuals all patting themselves on the back as they agree with themselves that their enormous brains understand the depths of meaning and so proving (to themselves, if no-one else) that their superior mindsets belong with other superior beings who exist on a different plain from the shrivel headed plankton who look at it & say "well, that's a load of shite".

[Wandering Willy]

There may be no hope for me - I find my self agreeing with a clown.

[thebish]

Well, if anyone can explain why the Henry Moore's work, basically huge blobs, is art and not simply piss taking of the gullible and outstanding examples of the Emporer's new clothes I'd be fascinated.

Will, truly, when I look at that the only sub-structures i see are huge virtual gatherings of self proclaimed intellectuals all patting themselves on the back as they agree with themselves that their enormous brains understand the depths of meaning and so proving (to themselves, if no-one else) that their superior mindsets belong with other superior beings who exist on a different plain from the shrivel headed plankton who look at it & say "well, that's a load of shite".

...and on the other side of the sculpture are a load of self-congratulatory know-it-alls saying - ooh we're so clever we can see through this pretentious guff - unlike that crowd of empty-headed pseudo-intellectuals on the other side. Let's congratulate ourselves for being oh-so level headed and full of common sense and plain straight-talking earthy taste and be very self-satisfied that we are ever so much more independent-minded than those on the other side.

twas ever thus.

(Moore has never really done it for me - but they are ace to climb on when you are a kid!)

[bobo the clown]

the single difference being, Bish, that my side are right.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I quite like the representation of the airmen and wish the monument had been left at that. It the 'billionaire's garden ornament' that is is both ugly and awkwardly inappropriate.

Not sure how Henry Moore came into this!

[thebish]

I quite like the represntation of the airmen and wish the monument had been left at that. It the 'billionaire's garden ornament' that is is both ugly and awkwardly inappropriate.

Not sure how Henry Moore came into this!

Bobo's Henry Moore is like Tango's Tracey Emin... they crop up as exemplars of anything "arty" whenever we have a discussion about art!

[TANGODANCER]

I quite like the represntation of the airmen and wish the monument had been left at that. It the 'billionaire's garden ornament' that is is both ugly and awkwardly inappropriate.

Not sure how Henry Moore came into this!

Bobo's Henry Moore is like Tango's Tracey Emin... they crop up as exemplars of anything "arty" whenever we have a discussion about art!

Aye, a bit like me and you; one happy to be confused and admit it, and the other to know and understand everything. Thus it ever was.

[thebish]

I quite like the represntation of the airmen and wish the monument had been left at that. It the 'billionaire's garden ornament' that is is both ugly and awkwardly inappropriate.

Not sure how Henry Moore came into this!

Bobo's Henry Moore is like Tango's Tracey Emin... they crop up as exemplars of anything "arty" whenever we have a discussion about art!

Aye, a bit like me and you; one happy to be confused and admit it, and the other to know and understand everything. Thus it ever was.