Britains Got Talent...

[Montreal Wanderer]

Well, I'm also convinced if she'd been black Dickens would have said so. Despite claims of a Victorian multi-cultural society in this country, this was only thirty years after the abolition of slavery and I think the non-white percentages would have been very small indeed. Not time to find facts right now as it's home time.

While I have no intention of entering into the general debate, the abolitionist movement has little to do with the black population of England - large or small. The slave trade was made illegal in 1807 and slavery was abolished in the British Empire in 1833. However, slavery in England had never existed. Black people were as free as any other. Certainly some English people had brought slaves purchased elsewhere to England as servants. Their status eventually resulted in a court case (R. v. Knowles, ex parte Somersett) in which it was determined that slavery had never existed under English common law. Thus, no one of any colour could have been a slave in England for many centuries.

[TANGODANCER]

By the way, didn't notice you moaning about West Side Story. Let's face it Shakespeare specifically wrote them as residents of Verona, not hispanics living in New York. By your mark, who did Bernstein and Sondheim think they were second guessing the Bard??? It was perfectly adequte as it was, or had you envisaged them as singing puerto ricans?

Oh, I decided firmly not to reply, but this....? I do happen to know a little on the topic.

So Shakespeare was responsible for West Side Story, was he? Harken!

The theme of unlucky love, ( Shakespeare used the term "strar-crossed) families warring etc etc, is no new thing, and plots on it are not based on Romeo and Juliet but on the said theme, ie unlucky/tragic love affairs and not the Montague's and Capulets. Shakespeare didn't even write the original Romeo and Juliet.

Eloise and Abelard, Tristan and Isolde, The Lovers of Terruel, ( eleventh/twelfth century) even old Lancelot and Guinevere are all based on the same theme as is Garcial Lorca's Blood Wedding and many more. Shakespeare just wrote one story around it which has become an ill-titled benchmark for all such plots. West side Story merely used the ingredients to write a modern-day play about it all using gang-warfare between American and Puerto-Rican teenagers. Boy of one warring faction meets girl of another and falls in love amidst all the aggro.

Not sure what all this has to do with Nancy, but no doubt you'll tell me?

[General Mannerheim]

Signature were my favourite, Shamon!

[CrazyHorse]

Signature were my favourite, Shamon!

With you there brother. Quality act.

[communistworkethic]

By the way, didn't notice you moaning about West Side Story. Let's face it Shakespeare specifically wrote them as residents of Verona, not hispanics living in New York. By your mark, who did Bernstein and Sondheim think they were second guessing the Bard??? It was perfectly adequte as it was, or had you envisaged them as singing puerto ricans?

Oh, I decided firmly not to reply, but this....? I do happen to know a little on the topic.

So Shakespeare was responsible for West Side Story, was he? Harken!

The theme of unlucky love, ( Shakespeare used the term "strar-crossed) families warring etc etc, is no new thing, and plots on it are not based on Romeo and Juliet but on the said theme, ie unlucky/tragic love affairs and not the Montague's and Capulets. Shakespeare didn't even write the original Romeo and Juliet.

Eloise and Abelard, Tristan and Isolde, The Lovers of Terruel, ( eleventh/twelfth century) even old Lancelot and Guinevere are all based on the same theme as is Garcial Lorca's Blood Wedding and many more. Shakespeare just wrote one story around it which has become an ill-titled benchmark for all such plots. West side Story merely used the ingredients to write a modern-day play about it all using gang-warfare between American and Puerto-Rican teenagers. Boy of one warring faction meets girl of another and falls in love amidst all the aggro.

Not sure what all this has to do with Nancy, but no doubt you'll tell me?

no, no twisting words from you, again. a "little knowledge", aye "little" is often a term I think of in refernce to your knowledge.

West Side Story not based on Shakespeare's romeo & juliet? Reet, whatever you say.

[Montreal Wanderer]

no, no twisting words from you, again. a "little knowledge", aye "little" is often a term I think of in refernce to your knowledge.

West Side Story not based on Shakespeare's romeo & juliet? Reet, whatever you say.

I guess Tango's point was that Shakespeare lifted the story from an English translation of a French translation of an Italian tale (Romeus and Juliet???) - he took many of his story lines from older sources. However, his version clearly became far more famous than these earlier versions and West Side Story was clearly derived from the Shakespearian version. So Shakespeare did not originate this specific tale, but was clearly responsible for its immortality. Just my opinion.

[TANGODANCER]

Let’s just back up a bit here for clarity. Commie posted (ignoring the bits that preceeded it):

Quote: “By the way, didn't notice you moaning about West Side Story. Let's face it Shakespeare specifically wrote them as residents of Verona, not hispanics living in New York. By your mark, who did Bernstein and Sondheim think they were second guessing the Bard??? It was perfectly adequte as it was, or had you envisaged them as singing puerto ricans?” Unquote.

Now up till then we were discussing Nancy in Oliver Twist. No, I hadn’t been “moaning” about West Side Story, because no one had mentioned it, so, I was a little baffled, but, hey-ho. Now, back to the present:

I’ve already stated that “Star-crossed” lover stories weren’t new when Shakespeare wrote Romeo and Juliet and that the concept wasn’t his or new.. Perhaps you didn’t bother with that bit? The producers of West Side story were originally going to write the musical as "East Side Story" using a Jewish girl and a Catholic boy using the same sort of plot. I still have, somewhere, a copy of the stage play script. I read it long before I saw the film. "Based on" is a very loose term when referring to plots.

My post said, quote: West Side Story merely used the ingredients to write a modern-day play about it all using gang-warfare between American and Puerto-Rican teenagers. Boy of one warring faction meets girl of another and falls in love amidst all the aggro. unquote. Boy dies, girl lives. A very loose version of Shakespeare's plot, okay. On that, I won't argue since the plot has been used in some form countless times.
Add the musical’s territorial supremecy, weapons, revenge and mindless hatred and you could almost film
a typical night in Moss Side modern day. There wouldn’t be much Shakespeare connection unless there was a pub around with that name. The rest is more than feasible.

I'm still not sure why you brought this topic up in the middle of a discussion about Oliver Twist. I'll also ignore your ending remarks; those I’ve come to expect from you and have no bearing on anything.

[communistworkethic]

and when someone lifted the basic characters and story of Romeo and Juliet, deny it all you want but it happened, they changed the colour of their skins and accents to suit their own interpretation and you think this is ok. But you don't think it's reasonable for someone to simply be black and play a part you percieve as being white. So, artistic licence is fine in some instances but not when it rubs up against your views?

[TANGODANCER]

and when someone lifted the basic characters and story of Romeo and Juliet, deny it all you want but it happened, they changed the colour of their skins and accents to suit their own interpretation and you think this is ok. But you don't think it's reasonable for someone to simply be black and play a part you percieve as being white. So, artistic licence is fine in some instances but not when it rubs up against your views?

Show me exactly where I said any such thing ,apart from Dickens gave no indication Nancy was black in the story? You might note how many times I said a black girl could/will play the part one day and do it well. Bit of a difference to your version don't you think? Oh, and I didn't raise the point in the first place, it was mummy. I simply, like he did, asked why it was necessary.

[communistworkethic]

and when someone lifted the basic characters and story of Romeo and Juliet, deny it all you want but it happened, they changed the colour of their skins and accents to suit their own interpretation and you think this is ok. But you don't think it's reasonable for someone to simply be black and play a part you percieve as being white. So, artistic licence is fine in some instances but not when it rubs up against your views?

Show me exactly where I said any such thing ,apart from Dickens gave no indication Nancy was black in the story? You might note how many times I said a black girl could/will play the part one day and do it well. Bit of a difference to your version don't you think? Oh, and I didn't raise the point in the first place, it was mummy. I simply, like he did, asked why it was necessary.

and for a further time, he didn't specify she was white and why isn't it necessary? The idea that it would be contextually wrong has been shot out of the water. Why is it necessary she's white? The only reason you've given is that that's the way you think it should be. Frankly, not the strongest reason.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

and when someone lifted the basic characters and story of Romeo and Juliet, deny it all you want but it happened, they changed the colour of their skins and accents to suit their own interpretation and you think this is ok. But you don't think it's reasonable for someone to simply be black and play a part you percieve as being white. So, artistic licence is fine in some instances but not when it rubs up against your views?

You're being disingenuous as usual. Tango and I both accepted early on that sometimes a classic story or theme can be successfully experimented with in some sort of revisionist production. I actually enjoy productions like the Romeo and Juliet film, with close up shots of their handguns made by "sword", and the like - it shows that some themes are indeed timeless, and the effect of superimposing a modern setting on a Shakespearean dialogue can be very arresting.

However, there is a distinction to be made between this kind of production and the 'straight' production that attempts loyalty to the original. Now, I hope Tango doesn't mind my further throwing my lot in with him and indeed even presuming to speak for him, but I think we both treat characters conceived by their creators as having qualities just as fixed as biographical subjects such as Nelson Mandela etc. Perhaps it is possible to disagree on what this fixed set of qualities is with certain fictional characters, but accepting that the original was indeed fixed is, at least, a start. I happen to believe that you're on very shaky ground trying to argue for the possibility that Dickens conceived of both Nancy and Oliver being black (and I believe that my brilliant 'sister disguise' point means that you have to commit to argue in relation to both of them!).

For me, it just doesn't make sense to include one big deliberate departure from the original when everything else remains constant - it's just a distraction if there's no compelling reason for the change. Perhaps this is too black and white for some tastes (ho hum!), but I think that the two options are to stick to the main features of the original, or to invent some conspicuously new setting for a work - anything in between is likely to enjoy the best of neither world.


Only one thing is certain - we're all incredibly sad bastards and I really shouldn't debate nonsense like this as a way to avoid my real work.....

[TANGODANCER]

The title of this Cruikshank illustration is: "Mr Fagin and his pupils recovering Nancy". Does this put the Dickens thing to bed?

[Hoboh]

The title of this Cruikshank illustration is: "Mr Fagin and his pupils recovering Nancy". Does this put the Dickens thing to bed?

Not really it's in Black and white

[CAPSLOCK]

Wheres Sams bazongas?

[TANGODANCER]

Wheres Sams bazongas?

Well-er, Never seen em on the menu in the Pickwick Room at Smithills. Must be a discontinued line.

[Dujon]

There has been many a production over the years which involved a rehashing of the situation of the characters - i.e. a movement in time, but not the condition in which the characters find themselves.

On a personal level I look forward to the next production of Porgy and Bess with Hyacinth and Onslow belting out Summer Time with Rose and Richard as backing vocals.

[communistworkethic]

The title of this Cruikshank illustration is: "Mr Fagin and his pupils recovering Nancy". Does this put the Dickens thing to bed?

no, it's interpretive. Until you get Mr Dickens himself here you cannot suggest as to knowing his thoughts, though you have tried.

[communistworkethic]

.
I happen to believe that you're on very shaky ground trying to argue for the possibility that Dickens conceived of both Nancy and Oliver being black (and I believe that my brilliant 'sister disguise' point means that you have to commit to argue in relation to both of them!).

as you appear to want to be as guilty as Tango in the "I'll accuse you of doing exactly what I'm doing stakes", I'll not waste my time pointingout all thepost of mine you've ignored and pick up on this one.

So a black girl couldn't attempt to disguise herself as white?

Just to help you.....

dis·guise [dis-gahyz, di-skahyz] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation verb, -guised, -guis·ing,
–verb (used with object) 1. to change the appearance or guise of so as to conceal identity or mislead, as by means of deceptive garb: The king was disguised as a peasant.
2. to conceal or cover up the truth or actual character of by a counterfeit form or appearance; misrepresent: to disguise one's intentions.



And no matter what, neither of you have shown that Dickens wrote the girl as any race in particular. Tango keeps asking the question "why is it necessary that she's black?" At no pint has anyone said it is a necessity, just that is reasonable to do it within the bounds off an "authentic" production. Which for some reason some of you are very keen to deny, for what reason I don't know.

[TANGODANCER]

At which point, methinks I'll call it a day on this.

[Hoboh]

At which point, methinks I'll call it a day on this.

Don't do that spoilsport we are all wadeing in now No footie = bloody bored!