Poetry!!!

[TANGODANCER]

I'm not sure if I like it bish, but I did write it. It's in my novel "Moro" and was written to suit an occasion. I suppose my point in putting it here was to prove that poetry can be written to suit any mood, occasion or situation.

I'm not sure that was ever under dispute was it?

Only by those who write for Hallmark.

[Bruce Rioja]

They were being kept apart by that most formidable of barriers, her family. He was a Christian, she a Muslim.

As a man that's been in that very position, Tango, (albeit agnostic but C of E by dint of family) it still said absolutely nothing to me whatsoever. Sorry.

[TANGODANCER]

They were being kept apart by that most formidable of barriers, her family. He was a Christian, she a Muslim.

As a man that's been in that very position, Tango, (albeit agnostic but C of E by dint of family) it still said absolutely nothing to me whatsoever. Sorry.

Don't be sorry Bruce. On top of everything, the girl's sister had just been killed and her father thought it the hero's fault. It all loked pretty grim for them.The poem was just written as part of the story and not meant as a poetic gem.

[Dujon]

'Poetry' - or in this case a 'song' - can get one into trouble, as I found out at the tender age of nine.

The father of one of my friends was standing for the position of councilor in our local government elections. For some long forgotten reason the two of us decided to march up and down the village singing. Presumably we had the idea that it would help my friend's Dad? Whatever, we both got a right rollicking when the truth was out.

The names of the innocent are omitted in order to protect the guilty. Both protagonists had two syllable names, the first of the first was stretched to two beats, as is the word 'day':

Vote, vote, vote for David ********
He is sure to win the day
Then we'll get a salmon tin
And we'll shove old ******** in
So we'll never see his uggerly mug anymore.

My friend's father was unsuccessful. He did though eventually make it onto the council (without our help).


Back to poetry. To be honest I have never been in thrall of verse that requires some sort of second sight plus a deep knowledge of the writer's state of mind, sexual preference and personal habits - never mind those of his pets, mistresses and rhubarb patch. From my limited experience writing poetry (and, yes, I have done so at times) it reflects my emotions/feelings at the time of penning it. Why would I expect someone else to understand what I wrote, or even try? Why would anybody attempt to stamp upon my emotions some ghost of their own that, by some quirk of coincidence, seems to reflect an aspect of their own life and experience which, in all probability, has no more validity than forged notes of the realm?

I love words and the way some people use them. We have a number of people on this forum who use them well. I wish at times that my verbosity would wane and allow me to be one of them. Alas!

[TANGODANCER]

We all have different tastes Dujon. Doubtless, few poets or artists or poets were involved, but in polls last year the nation's favourite poem was Kiplng's "If", and the nation's favourite painting, Turner's "The Fighting Temeraire". Funny old world.

[William the White]

We all have different tastes Dujon. Doubtless, few poets or artists or poets were involved, but in polls last year the nation's favourite poem was Kiplng's "If", and the nation's favourite painting, Turner's "The Fighting Temeraire". Funny old world.

They vote for those they've heard of.

Really a shame that we don't have a culture that welcomes poetry more... and art...

[TANGODANCER]

We all have different tastes Dujon. Doubtless, few poets or artists or poets were involved, but in polls last year the nation's favourite poem was Kiplng's "If", and the nation's favourite painting, Turner's "The Fighting Temeraire". Funny old world.

They vote for those they've heard of.
Really a shame that we don't have a culture that welcomes poetry more... and art...

That's a bit unkind WTW. The people who voted did so for a reason; that of liking something personally; something that appealed to them. Okay, maybe they weren't all artists or poets, but that doesn't mean they have no taste in either. The poems and paintings you personally admire can't be thrust on people as being the ultimate in the arts or everyone would follow certain set-down lines. Free expresion has to extend to all, as has personal taste. Isn't that what human rights is about?

[William the White]

We all have different tastes Dujon. Doubtless, few poets or artists or poets were involved, but in polls last year the nation's favourite poem was Kiplng's "If", and the nation's favourite painting, Turner's "The Fighting Temeraire". Funny old world.

They vote for those they've heard of.
Really a shame that we don't have a culture that welcomes poetry more... and art...

That's a bit unkind WTW. The people who voted did so for a reason; that of liking something personally; something that appealed to them. Okay, maybe they weren't all artists or poets, but that doesn't mean they have no taste in either. The poems and paintings you personally admire can't be thrust on people as being the ultimate in the arts or everyone would follow certain set-down lines. Free expresion has to extend to all, as has personal taste. Isn't that what human rights is about?

A strange definition of advocay that says I'm 'thrusting' my views on anyone. That would be totally futile. I'm an enthusiast for things that I like, and eill express my views enthusiastically. And will reject things I don't. At least you'll never wonder where I stand. In this way I'm exercising my right to free expression and encouraging everyone else's. But in no way am I censorious. I don't criticise other posters. Express away - join the debate - the more the merrier - the greater the diversity of taste the better - can I be any clearer?

[TANGODANCER]

We all have different tastes Dujon. Doubtless, few poets or artists or poets were involved, but in polls last year the nation's favourite poem was Kiplng's "If", and the nation's favourite painting, Turner's "The Fighting Temeraire". Funny old world.

They vote for those they've heard of.
Really a shame that we don't have a culture that welcomes poetry more... and art...

That's a bit unkind WTW. The people who voted did so for a reason; that of liking something personally; something that appealed to them. Okay, maybe they weren't all artists or poets, but that doesn't mean they have no taste in either. The poems and paintings you personally admire can't be thrust on people as being the ultimate in the arts or everyone would follow certain set-down lines. Free expresion has to extend to all, as has personal taste. Isn't that what human rights is about?

A strange definition of advocay that says I'm 'thrusting' my views on anyone. That would be totally futile. I'm an enthusiast for things that I like, and eill express my views enthusiastically. And will reject things I don't. At least you'll never wonder where I stand. In this way I'm exercising my right to free expression and encouraging everyone else's. But in no way am I censorious. I don't criticise other posters. Express away - join the debate - the more the merrier - the greater the diversity of taste the better - can I be any clearer?

The "you" wasn't aimed at you personally, just a collective generalisation. Perhaps I should have said "one".

[thebish]

We all have different tastes Dujon. Doubtless, few poets or artists or poets were involved, but in polls last year the nation's favourite poem was Kiplng's "If", and the nation's favourite painting, Turner's "The Fighting Temeraire". Funny old world.

They vote for those they've heard of.
Really a shame that we don't have a culture that welcomes poetry more... and art...

That's a bit unkind WTW. The people who voted did so for a reason; that of liking something personally; something that appealed to them. Okay, maybe they weren't all artists or poets, but that doesn't mean they have no taste in either. The poems and paintings you personally admire can't be thrust on people as being the ultimate in the arts or everyone would follow certain set-down lines. Free expresion has to extend to all, as has personal taste. Isn't that what human rights is about?

A strange definition of advocay that says I'm 'thrusting' my views on anyone. That would be totally futile. I'm an enthusiast for things that I like, and eill express my views enthusiastically. And will reject things I don't. At least you'll never wonder where I stand. In this way I'm exercising my right to free expression and encouraging everyone else's. But in no way am I censorious. I don't criticise other posters. Express away - join the debate - the more the merrier - the greater the diversity of taste the better - can I be any clearer?

The "you" wasn't aimed at you personally, just a collective generalisation. Perhaps I should have said "one".

it didn't read that way to me - especially as you addressed it quite clearly at the start to WTW...

and - one person expressing a view is in no way a denial of another person's "free expression" - I can't see a single way that anyone's "free expression" has been threatened or challenged or denied at all through this thread. in fact the opposite is often the case - one person offeriong a view leads to others doing likewise - and debate can begin - leading to more views expressed.

[TANGODANCER]

Well, you'll see it as you see it, but I'll stand by what I said. WTW said:

"They vote for those they've heard of.
Really a shame that we don't have a culture that welcomes poetry more... and art...

This indicates that the people who voted are not very knowlegable, or at least limited, about art and poetry. If this is wrong, then I apologise, but that's what prompted me to say it was an unkind generalisation. The polls were widely publicised at the times of voting, and the voters must have been of a varied section of people, age, sex etc. People won't embrace or vote for what they don't like. In my view we do have a great culture that welcomes both art and poetry. We just decide what appeals personally to us. A point well proven on these forums alone.

[Bruce Rioja]

Well, you'll see it as you see it, but I'll stand by what I said. WTW said:

"They vote for those they've heard of.
Really a shame that we don't have a culture that welcomes poetry more... and art...

This indicates that the people who voted are not very knowlegable, or at least limited, about art and poetry.

You reckon, Tango?

The first line is perfectly factual, the second an opinion that I concur with entirely. By and large we are a nation of oiks when it comes to art and poetry. For me personally, when I see a painting or read a poem that I don't like - it's just as important to me as seeing something that has me fawning over it, because I can ask myself why?

[William the White]

Eldest daughter's birthday today. children aged from 39 to 18 gathered. And grandchildren. And we got to talking poetry - because youngest currently obsessed with it, writing constantly... And after the roast lamb, and veggie option, and wine of all shades we started talking about favourite poems... So, my offering was this... I don't think it's 'major' poem... But I do think it has the great virtues of beauty and truth and daring and questioning and an emotional centre to pull us along through every line.

I admire its daring - that it can combine the two extreme experiences of love/sex/adoration and death/loss and make a whole that makes us a little more aware of life...

I really hope some of you guys have the patience to read... it's called 'Sweetness' by Stephen Dunn... It's published in the wonderful anthology 'staying Alive' that I posted about on p 1 of this thread...

I suggest reading aloud - as all ppetry should be - slowly, without great attention to line breaks, just get to the heart...

Sweetness...

Just when it has seemed I couldn't bear
one more friend
waking with a tumour, one more maniac
with a perfect reason, often a sweetness
has come
and changed nothing in the world
except the way I stumbled through it,
for a while lost
in the ignorance of loving
someone or something, the world shrunk
to mouth-size,
hand-size, and never seeming small.

I acknowledge there is no sweetness
that doesn't leave a stain,
no sweetness that's ever sufficiently sweet...

Tonight a friend called to say his lover
was killed in a car
he was driving. His voice was low
and guttural, he repeated what he needed
to repeat, and I repeated
the one or two words we have for such grief
until we were speaking only in tones.

Often a sweetness comes
as if on loan, stays just long enough
to make sense of what it means to be alive,
then returns to its dark
source. As for me, I don't care
where it's been, or what bitter road
it's travelled
to come so far, to taste so good.

[Dujon]

"Just when it has seemed I couldn't bear one more friend waking with a tumour, one more maniac with a perfect reason, often a sweetness has come and changed nothing in the world except the way I stumbled through it, for a while lost in the ignorance of loving someone or something, the world shrunk to mouth-size, hand-size, and never seeming small.

I acknowledge there is no sweetness that doesn't leave a stain, no sweetness that's ever sufficiently sweet...

Tonight a friend called to say his lover was killed in a car he was driving. His voice was low and guttural, he repeated what he needed to repeat, and I repeated the one or two words we have for such grief until we were speaking only in tones.

Often a sweetness comes as if on loan, stays just long enough to make sense of what it means to be alive, then returns to its dark source. As for me, I don't care where it's been, or what bitter road it's travelled to come so far, to taste so good."

. . . I suggest reading aloud - as all ppetry should be - slowly, without great attention to line breaks, just get to the heart...

Bravo on the reading tip. Too many times have I heard recitations where readers treat the line breaks as some form of essential pause, a pause that (in my opinion) breaks up the flow of the narrative. Then again a cynic could say that a poem such as you have quoted is simply a randomly chopped up piece of prose which has been presented in printed form in order to look like a poem and to utilise more of a page than would the prose version.

I have done no deep and meaningful research into why such presentations are made, perhaps there is an underlying reason for such? Does Stephen Dunn's writing suffer when put back to straightforward prose? I think not. Well, not to me it doesn't.

[William the White]

Hey Dujon...

You only have to look at your prose version and try to read it to know how much it suffers... horribly... just messes up the poet's thinking and the character's journey...

Read aloud again, seek out the rhythms, this is not prose, my 'guidance' on line breaks was because people schooled in the 'discipline' of rhyme will over-emphasise... But these line breaks are deliberate... Read them...

[Prufrock]

Keep meaning to go into more detail on why I love Prufrock. I blame reebokrebel for making me work. Tomorrow hopefully.

[thebish]

'tis Burns Night...

so.....

A Man's A Man for A' That


Is there for honest poverty
That hings his head, an a' that?
The coward slave, we pass him by -
We dare be poor for a' that!
For a' that, an a' that,
Our toils obscure, an a' that,
The rank is but the guinea's stamp,
The man's the gowd for a' that.

What though on hamely fare we dine,
Wear hoddin grey, an a' that?
Gie fools their silks, and knaves their wine -
A man's a man for a' that.
For a' that, an a' that.
Their tinsel show, an a' that,
The honest man, tho e'er sae poor,
Is king o men for a' that.

Ye see you birkie ca'd 'a lord,'
What struts, an stares, an a' that?
Tho hundreds worship at his word,
He's but a cuif for a' that.
For a' that, an a' that,
His ribband, star, an a' that,
The man o independent mind,
He looks an laughs at a' that.

A prince can mak a belted knight,
A marquis, duke, an a' that!
But an honest man's aboon his might -
Guid faith, he mauna fa' that!
For a' that, an a' that,
Their dignities, an a' that,
The pith o sense an pride o worth.
Are higher rank than a' that.

Then let us pray that come it may
[As come it will for a' that],
That Sense and Worth o'er a' the earth,
Shall bear the gree an a' that.
For a' that, an a' that,
It's comin yet for a' that,
That man to man, the world, o'er
Shall brithers be for a' that.

[thebish]

and this....

To A Mouse.



Wee sleekit, cow'rin, tim'rous beastie,
O, what a panic's in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
Wi bickering brattle!
I wad be laith to rin an chase thee,
Wi murdering pattle!

I'm truly sorry man's dominion
Has broken Nature's social union,
An justifies that ill opinion,
Which makes thee startle
At me, thy poor, earth-born companion.
An fellow mortal!

I doubt na, whyles, but thou may thieve:
What then? poor beastie, thou maun live!
A daimen icker in a thrave
'S a sma request;
I'll get a blessin wi the lave,
An never miss't!

Thy wee-bit housie, too, in ruin!
Its silly wa's the win's are strewin!
An naething, now, to big a new ane,
O foggage green!
An bleak December's win's ensuin.
Baith snell an keen!

Thou saw the fields laid bare an waste,
An weary winter comin fast.
An cozie here, beneath the blast,
Thou thought to dwell,
Till crash! the cruel coulter past
Out thro thy cell.

That wee bit heap o leaves an stibble,
Has cost thee monie a weary nibble!
Now thou's turn'd out, for a' thy trouble.
But house or hald,
To thole the winter's sleety dribble,
An cranreuch cauld!

But Mousie, thou art no thy lane,
In proving foresight may be vain:
The best-laid schemes o mice an men
Gang aft agley,
An lea'e us nought but grief an pain,
For promis'd joy!

Still thou art blest, compar'd wi me!
The present only toucheth thee:
But och! I backward cast my e'e,
On prospects drear!
An forward, tho I canna see,
I guess an fear!


dawn steele reads it..... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpzK73_l ... re=related

[ratbert]

Time for some Spike Milligan on this thread:

On the Ning Nang Nong
Where the Cows go Bong!
and the monkeys all say BOO!
There's a Nong Nang Ning
Where the trees go Ping!
And the tea pots jibber jabber joo.
On the Nong Ning Nang
All the mice go Clang
And you just can't catch 'em when they do!
So its Ning Nang Nong
Cows go Bong!
Nong Nang Ning
Trees go ping
Nong Ning Nang
The mice go Clang
What a noisy place to belong
is the Ning Nang Ning Nang Nong!!
_______________________________

So fair is she!
So fair her face
So fair her pulsing figure

Not so fair
The maniacal stare
Of a husband who's much bigger.

[Jakerbeef]

I've been away too long. I didn't understand most of those two Burns poems.

Still, I eat Haggis every Burns night though. Tradition




an a' that.