The Politics Thread

[Worthy4England]

Do you reckon its not helping anyone?

I didn't say that once!!!!

[BWFC_Insane]

Aren't the University research departments supposed to liase with somebody to determine exactly what courses are required to meet the needs of industry? How many games processors and graphic designers do we actually need? The question's a serious one, since we seem to employ the young to come into the workplace and tell us exactly how many we need to make redundant. I speak from experience (not paticularly my own, but that of people around me.)

No they are there to do academic research.

What sort of annoys me is that all these things that Universities are doing like the general skills stuff, the lifelong learning networks, the knowledge transfer between HE and the business world etc are all things that industry as a whole were asked "would you like to do in-house" and take the responsibility for the skills gap and making sure that we have appropriately trained people (that aren't too specialised at 19/20) so they can have good careers and contribute. And they said no. Virtually every Uni in the country has knowledge transfer programmes where they try and liaise with local and national businesses to do what TD was saying, trying to match the two requirments both from a teaching and learning perspective. What happens is very very few businesses actually want to be involved and those that do its often a token gesture.

Its the assumption that the private sector can do better what the public sector is doing. If so feck off and do it. Go into schools pick up the 16 year olds directly from failing their GCSE's and take them, and train them, qualify them to do real jobs that will improve their lives and societies in general, AND will give you the workforce trained in the way you actually want. If that happened we'd not be having this argument. The idea that industry is some bastion of performance and training really is laughable.

But in the majority of cases they won't do that, because the private sector is greedy and thinks that it should be able to pluck what it wants when it wants it, and when the offerings are not quite what it would like it moans about it.

[Lord Kangana]

Wasn't it David Mitchell who said that we should allow universities to do what might seem pointless research, because most discoveries/invention/whatever you will has come as a by-product of looking for other things. You can't invent things you can't conceive. I believe plastics came about in this fashion.

[TANGODANCER]

But that's the point in a way Bish. In Hobo's words: "Its about how many people can we sustain in certain types of employment.". I mean the whole gaming thing (which certainly isn't a cheap end product is designed to get the public (mainly the young) to keep spending whilst just playing games. How does that affect the future way universities teach? Surely there has to be more important aims than commanding the world's gaming requirements in the middle of a recession?

[Prufrock]

Wasn't it David Mitchell who said that we should allow universities to do what might seem pointless research, because most discoveries/invention/whatever you will has come as a by-product of looking for other things. You can't invent things you can't conceive. I believe plastics came about in this fashion.

Yep, twere the subject of one of his Guardian columns. It'll be on the website there. And it's true.

[thebish]

But that's the point in a way Bish. In Hobo's words: "Its about how many people can we sustain in certain types of employment.". I mean the whole gaming thing (which certainly isn't a cheap end product is designed to get the public (mainly the young) to keep spending whilst just playing games. How does that affect the future way universities teach? Surely there has to be more important aims than commanding the world's gaming requirements in the middle of a recession?

not sure I understand your argument...

training games programmers and developers in the UK is surely a sensible thing to do seeing as we are one of the world leaders and seeing as it is an industry tyhat is growing massively. there are five UK universities that are industry Skillset accredited to do this. Training people to a high industry-accredited standard for a growing industry in which we are amongst the world-leaders - I see that as a good thing - what am I missing?

as for the recession - there is no real evidence to suggest it has or will make a serious dent in the gaming industry if that's what you're implying?

in fact - as I said - I don't see your point at all! perhaps you could re-state it?

are you suggesting universities scrap games programming courses? are you suggesting fewer people should go to university? are you suggesting young people should be more restricted in what they can study at Uni (if so - what?) and if none of these things - what are you suggesting?

[William the White]

Can I just say to Pru that Media Studies is no more about working in the media than English literature is about writing novels or Latin is about wearing a toga.

There will be some crossover, obviously, some english students do become novelists, some latin ones, i believe, become plebeians.

In a world becoming more and more dominated by media in practice it is essential that people think about the nature of this phenomenon, question, it, criticise it, seek to change it and challenge it. I think any uni without a media studies programme is failing the education system and our society - this is close to becoming the dominant means of communication world wide - universities should ignore that???

[Verbal]

Can I just say to Pru that Media Studies is no more about working in the media than English literature is about writing novels or Latin is about wearing a toga.

There will be some crossover, obviously, some english students do become novelists, some latin ones, i believe, become plebeians.

In a world becoming more and more dominated by media in practice it is essential that people think about the nature of this phenomenon, question, it, criticise it, seek to change it and challenge it. I think any uni without a media studies programme is failing the education system and our society - this is close to becoming the dominant means of communication world wide - universities should ignore that???

Especially since the internet boom and the mass availability of information at our fingertips, it's something which pretty much dominates our lives - in work, through social networking and also through shitty football forums bringing together people from miles apart to talk about the club they love joking aide, there is alot of research which needs to be done on this subject.

It is also good to study in a sense that it allows us to question what the media do. How is content 'made'? Who authorises it? What pressures and constraints do they have? Has the Internet changed this? Who sets the media agenda?

I'm not a media student by the way just saying it isn't particularly useless...

[Worthy4England]

Aren't the University research departments supposed to liase with somebody to determine exactly what courses are required to meet the needs of industry? How many games processors and graphic designers do we actually need? The question's a serious one, since we seem to employ the young to come into the workplace and tell us exactly how many we need to make redundant. I speak from experience (not paticularly my own, but that of people around me.)

No they are there to do academic research.

What sort of annoys me is that all these things that Universities are doing like the general skills stuff, the lifelong learning networks, the knowledge transfer between HE and the business world etc are all things that industry as a whole were asked "would you like to do in-house" and take the responsibility for the skills gap and making sure that we have appropriately trained people (that aren't too specialised at 19/20) so they can have good careers and contribute. And they said no. Virtually every Uni in the country has knowledge transfer programmes where they try and liaise with local and national businesses to do what TD was saying, trying to match the two requirments both from a teaching and learning perspective. What happens is very very few businesses actually want to be involved and those that do its often a token gesture.

Its the assumption that the private sector can do better what the public sector is doing. If so feck off and do it. Go into schools pick up the 16 year olds directly from failing their GCSE's and take them, and train them, qualify them to do real jobs that will improve their lives and societies in general, AND will give you the workforce trained in the way you actually want. If that happened we'd not be having this argument. The idea that industry is some bastion of performance and training really is laughable.

But in the majority of cases they won't do that, because the private sector is greedy and thinks that it should be able to pluck what it wants when it wants it, and when the offerings are not quite what it would like it moans about it.

Have a try at reading this. It might help.

It's not just about educating as many people, as we as a nation can, to some watered down level to say "look we've hit the target"

http://www.connectingindustry.com/Journ ... 202008.pdf

[Bruce Rioja]

But that's the point in a way Bish. In Hobo's words: "Its about how many people can we sustain in certain types of employment.". I mean the whole gaming thing (which certainly isn't a cheap end product is designed to get the public (mainly the young) to keep spending whilst just playing games. How does that affect the future way universities teach? Surely there has to be more important aims than commanding the world's gaming requirements in the middle of a recession?

Hang on, Tango. I've absolutely no doubt that in the past you'll have derided people for obtaining degrees in 'creative basket weaving' etc. etc. in fact, that looks like it's pretty much what you're trying to do here. Yet, when students obtain qualifications relevant to one of the fastest growing global market sectors you're still not happy. And it's a very different kind of recession this one, my friend. Many are actually better off in terms of disposable income due to the lower interest rates. I ain’t half getting stuck in to the lump sum on my mortgage.

[TANGODANCER]

Hang on, Tango. I've absolutely no doubt that in the past you'll have derided people for obtaining degrees in 'creative basket weaving' etc. etc. in fact, that looks like it's pretty much what you're trying to do here. Yet, when students obtain qualifications relevant to one of the fastest growing global market sectors you're still not happy. And it's a very different kind of recession this one, my friend. Many are actually better off in terms of disposable income due to the lower interest rates. I ain’t half getting stuck in to the lump sum on my mortgage.

Really? Apart from having a joking dig at Louise Taylor (just as everyone else did for her slating the Wanderers) when did I do that Bruce? I'd love you to show me where. . My question wasn't an attack on the gaming industry, it was asking - and in line with the general topic of the thread-as it stated- Aren't the University research departments supposed to liase with somebody to determine exactly what courses are required to meet the needs of industry? How many games processors and graphic designers do we actually need? Bish seems to think, a lot. But where do we go from there?

The current end users of the games are most likely your next university candidiates, or at least a proportion of them. How far can it go before overload, and what happens next? I asked, not stated anything at all. I was simply looking ahead. I didn't profess any answers, just questions. Very badly obviously, since Bish didin't understand a word I said.

[Bruce Rioja]

Tango. Are you honestly telling me that if I look into your posting history I won't find a veritable cornucopia of remarks, made by you, relating to people obtaining in your eyes 'worthless' degrees? Perhaps not worded verbatim, but do come on!

[TANGODANCER]

Tango. Are you honestly telling me that if I look into your posting history I won't find a veritable cornucopia of remarks, made by you, relating to people obtaining in your eyes 'worthless' degrees? Perhaps not worded verbatim, but do come on!

If you're so sure, then do it, I'll donate £2 to Children in Need for every one you find. You made the statement. Having had two daughters who both got degrees I doubt you'll find any, I don't even remember being in any debate about degrees before (but that may be my memory) but hey, look away. I'll honour the bet. No time limit.

[Bruce Rioja]

Tango. Are you honestly telling me that if I look into your posting history I won't find a veritable cornucopia of remarks, made by you, relating to people obtaining in your eyes 'worthless' degrees? Perhaps not worded verbatim, but do come on!

If you're so sure, then do it, I'll donate £2 to Children in Need for every one you find. You made the statement. Having had two daughters who both got degrees I doubt you'll find any, I don't even remember being in any debate about degrees before (but that may be my memory) but hey, look away. I'll honour the bet. No time limit.

Sancitimonious offering or not, there's no way that I'm about to start trawling through your vast post history just to dig up individual evidence from your anything-modern-is-rubbish back catalogue. Still, thanks for the offer.

[Hoboh]

What good's a history degree, anyway?

History's not the future, is it?

#History is the coming thing, mate. definitely...

Aye it is,

What goes round comes round in the circle of life only a small matter of when not if some little one balled dictator kids off WW3.
(And I have two before anyone starts! )

[thebish]

Aren't the University research departments supposed to liase with somebody to determine exactly what courses are required to meet the needs of industry? How many games processors and graphic designers do we actually need? Bish seems to think, a lot. But where do we go from there?

The current end users of the games are most likely your next university candidiates, or at least a proportion of them. How far can it go before overload, and what happens next? I asked, not stated anything at all. I was simply looking ahead. I didn't profess any answers, just questions. Very badly obviously, since Bish didin't understand a word I said.

and i answered - they do - there are 5 universities with industry-accredited skillshare accreditation - that's the university developing and adapting its courses directly with the games industry so that they are teaching skills that will serve a growing industry and do a better job of preparing students for employment there.

current research?? quite a bit in simulation and also into the "uncanny valley"...

you have lost me again completely with your bit about "end users" - what has that got to do with anything? I'm an end-user of a sink - but it doesn't mean a plumbing course is of any relevance to me.... you've lost me... (again)

what do you mean by your question "but where do we go from here?" - it seems simple - we train them for a growing world-leading industry - and they get jobs there - that's where we go... what else did you have in mind?

what is it that you are actually trying to say Tango?

[thebish]

What good's a history degree, anyway?

History's not the future, is it?

#History is the coming thing, mate. definitely...

Aye it is,

What goes round comes round in the circle of life only a small matter of when not if some little one balled dictator kids off WW3.
(And I have two before anyone starts! )

you have two one-balled dictator kids??

[Hoboh]

What good's a history degree, anyway?

History's not the future, is it?

#History is the coming thing, mate. definitely...

Aye it is,

What goes round comes round in the circle of life only a small matter of when not if some little one balled dictator kids off WW3.
(And I have two before anyone starts! )

you have two one-balled dictator kids??

You just be carefull matey, you know the only way I get involved in this thread is due to a low "degree" of tolerance

BTW while the sprogs are out dreaming up million ways to wipe out our planet and Galaxy (along with the milky way) in some superb graphically rendered way, who the hells going to drive the busses or serve the burgers?

[William the White]

What good's a history degree, anyway?

History's not the future, is it?

#History is the coming thing, mate. definitely...

Aye it is,

What goes round comes round in the circle of life only a small matter of when not if some little one balled dictator kids off WW3.
(And I have two before anyone starts! )

you have two one-balled dictator kids??

You just be carefull matey, you know the only way I get involved in this thread is due to a low "degree" of tolerance

BTW while the sprogs are out dreaming up million ways to wipe out our planet and Galaxy (along with the milky way) in some superb graphically rendered way, who the hells going to drive the busses or serve the burgers?

You mean it's not going to be you and your mates? Jeez, we were depending on that...

Still, if not, i guess we'll get some foreigners in...

[Hoboh]

#History is the coming thing, mate. definitely...

Aye it is,

What goes round comes round in the circle of life only a small matter of when not if some little one balled dictator kids off WW3.
(And I have two before anyone starts! )

you have two one-balled dictator kids??

You just be carefull matey, you know the only way I get involved in this thread is due to a low "degree" of tolerance

BTW while the sprogs are out dreaming up million ways to wipe out our planet and Galaxy (along with the milky way) in some superb graphically rendered way, who the hells going to drive the busses or serve the burgers?

You mean it's not going to be you and your mates? Jeez, we were depending on that...

Still, if not, i guess we'll get some foreigners in...

Of all folk I'd expect better from you William!

Prezzies n monarchs don't serve burgers or drive busses we leave that to those who have useless degrees.