Today I'm angry about.....

[Hoboh]

I wonder how quick the West would be to 'bomb' Russia if Putin used chemical weapons in Chechnya or parts of the Caucasus's?
Nothing like double standards is there!

[thebish]

I wonder how quick the West would be to 'bomb' Russia if Putin used chemical weapons in Chechnya or parts of the Caucasus's?
Nothing like double standards is there!

hmmmm... presumably, also, now we are being told that we don't need UN security council to agree for this to be ok - because it's not really proper military action, it's summat else entirely - then we'd be perfectly chilled if Russia cobbled together some allies and did a bit of international bombing (to protect civilians) without the authority of the UN security council..

also... having (rightly) demanded that UN weapons inspectors are allowed to go in and do an inspection - now that Syria has allowed this, we have decided we have already made up our minds and are dismissing the inspection??

meanwhile - back in May of this year:

A United Nations inquiry into human rights abuses in Syria has found evidence that rebel forces may have used chemical weapons, its lead investigator has revealed.

Carla Del Ponte, a member of the UN Independent Commission of Inquiry on Syria, said that testimony gathered from casualties and medical staff indicated that the nerve agent sarin was used by rebel fighters.

“Our investigators have been in neighbouring countries interviewing victims, doctors and field hospitals and, according to their report of last week which I have seen, there are strong, concrete suspicions but not yet incontrovertible proof of the use of sarin gas, from the way the victims were treated,” Ms Del Ponte said in an interview broadcast on Swiss-Italian television on Sunday. “This was used on the part of the opposition, the rebels, not by the government authorities,” she added.

[William the White]

Thank you for that reminder, thebish. Sometimes in a conflict there are no good guys. We should concentrate on serious humanitarian and medical aid from the refugees.

[thebish]

A minister friend of mine who has spent time in Syria put it better than I could - I think he analyses the situation fairly well...

Sorry to be gloomy here but one big problem: [having been to Syria, and met Syrian Christians (who are often forgotten in all this) - most recently with one of their Leaders visiting the UK and addressing a meeting at Lumen URC] - is that there are absolutely no good choices, as Just War theory might presuppose, in this whatsoever. As with most things, had things been said and done 2.5 years ago, things might have been different, but now there are only a choice of bad and less bad choices.
As in the period during and after WWI various movements and countries are playing out their 'games' & worldviews in/around Syria. Turkey is playing the old colonial Ottoman Sunni Muslim, and seeking to re-extend Turkic influence. Saudi Arabia and the Gulf States (who are arming the so-called 'rebels', and will do whatever the West does and says) a more stricter form of Sunni/Wahabist Islam. Iran promoting its geo political interests as Shia 'underdogs' who for now are best served in alliance with Russian and the Assad regime (Alawites, are considered a deviant sect of Shia Islam). The Russians are at best suspicious, at worst hateful of the West's involvement/interests. And the omens from Iraq are not at all good. And the US - seems to me - are trying to sit it out on the fence, and not get drawn in, but knowing that as the biggest force in the Region, aka the Big strong boy in the playground, sooner or later will get drawn in - someone will throw a stone at them, and force a response. Then there is Israel, terrified of what might emerge on their border - should they stick with the devil they know, aka Assad et al. Or stir the pot for their interests/security. Can they get the US/UK/France to do their work for them, and thus not get the blame? France are not neutral here, being the old Colonial power from 1920-1943, only being forced out by Britain and the US at the end of WWII to give independence to Syria - there are those who argue they have been itching to get back in, and have never really let go of aspirations as a Med power broker. Their President is considered weak, and what better to deflect attention from that by getting involved in a foreign war?
In this Al-Queada & other groups are carrying out their agenda of extreme Islamisation of Syria: our visiting Christian Leader back in July pointed out for e.g. that there have been snipers found in cities like Aleppo who don't know they are in Syria, they believed they were fighting the Israeli's in Palestine, and were shocked to discover the people they had been told to shoot at were Arab Muslims. So for e.g. the attack on the UN Inspectors car the other day, could have been one of them thinking they were shooting at Israeli's. 'Rebel' controlled areas have had Sharia courts forced on them, and dress codes for women etc. I don't mean to be melodramatic but some of things reported to be going on in refugee camps, simply are terrible, teenage women being forced to convert and marry fighters, who are then killed in Battle, or if they survive divorce the girls having had their 'way with them'. Yet these are the 'good guys' - the rebels we will in effect be supporting if military action goes ahead, however limited.

It's a complete mess.

And the one group of people nobody seems to have any thought for in all this - the ordinary people of Syria, 10-15% of them who are Christian, and who are gradually being driven out the country, or leaving (as perhaps any sane person would), and many normal moderate Muslims and others.
It's really bad the Chemical Attack of last week: But will firing a few missiles in achieve anything to stop that, or deter further such attacks? If I were in the regime with such weapons, I would have moved them and hidden them by now - and whatever else they are, they are not stupid. So limited action will not achieve anything, and is likely to just up and the anti, and make things worse, because somebody will now start shooting at and bombing us now. And, I know this sounds daft, but can we be so sure that it was the regime - we need sound evidence. 'Rebels' have captured Airforce bases, and places where such weapons were stored, and so whilst its unlikely, it is not impossible that some of the more extreme elements might have had a hand in it, as the Russians argue - though if it can be proved that it was delivered by aircraft that would be proof it was the regime. Andin Iraq, with supposed Weapons of Mass Destruction, the Western Intelligence services were all duped by Iraqi exiles with their own agendas, and we found there were no weapons when we looking - they had all been destroyed. The point here is the 'Rebels' have reason to promote the narrative that it was the regime, and it may well have been. But we need to be sure, before firing missiles in, and then maybe finding ourselves duped again, and in another war we didn't want and bodies coming back in Coffins through Royal Wootton Basset - having died for what?

So, no simple conclusions here. People/Govts want to be seen doing something (the 'something must be done' political response!), anything, but there are no simple choices, as I said at the top, only bad and less bad choices. Sit back and do nothing, you seem to be condoning the regime etc & the West is accused of not caring, as was the accusation in the Balkans with Bosnia and Kosovo. Do something, and we end up stirring the pot and perhaps fomenting a worse scenario.

The thing with the Just War theory is that it depends on a few simple variables, a 'good side' and 'a bad side', who can be justifiably neutralised or deterred, and proportionate targets/aims to achieve. But there are more sides to the actions here than that, and very few good guys in all this, or morally neutral 'actors'.

So personally all we can do is to pray for the leaders, and for wisdom to prevail, that whatever does result does not make things worse than they already are. And pray and give (see the Christian Aid appeal on the URC Website, or I could point people to a fund for Presbyterian Church working with Christian refugees in Lebanon) for the people caught in the middle - the civilians who have done nothing wrong to deserve all this, but are suffering nevertheless.

[William the White]

I wonder how quick the West would be to 'bomb' Russia if Putin used chemical weapons in Chechnya or parts of the Caucasus's?
Nothing like double standards is there!

meanwhile - back in May of this year:

A United Nations inquiry into human rights abuses in Syria has found evidence that rebel forces may have used chemical weapons, its lead investigator has revealed.

Carla Del Ponte, a member of the UN Independent Commission of Inquiry on Syria, said that testimony gathered from casualties and medical staff indicated that the nerve agent sarin was used by rebel fighters.

“Our investigators have been in neighbouring countries interviewing victims, doctors and field hospitals and, according to their report of last week which I have seen, there are strong, concrete suspicions but not yet incontrovertible proof of the use of sarin gas, from the way the victims were treated,” Ms Del Ponte said in an interview broadcast on Swiss-Italian television on Sunday. “This was used on the part of the opposition, the rebels, not by the government authorities,” she added.

Can you give me a source for this? I've just had a quick look through the three reports of this commission on the UN website but can't find this reference. I'm writing to David Crausby (MP for Bolton NE) to urge he speak and vote against armed intervention and in favour of increased humanitarian aid. I'd like to draw his attention to this.

[BWFC_Insane]

Not saying you're wrong Will. But I wonder if the people of Syria who suffered and are suffering from the Chemical Attacks might laugh at the offer of "humanitarian aid".

Syria is a huge huge mess. Bish has posted a very though provoking piece there.

But whilst I'm far from in the military action camp, I feel uncomfortably, massively so, sitting by and watching them kill each other.

Hmmm.

[William the White]

Not saying you're wrong Will. But I wonder if the people of Syria who suffered and are suffering from the Chemical Attacks might laugh at the offer of "humanitarian aid".

Syria is a huge huge mess. Bish has posted a very though provoking piece there.

But whilst I'm far from in the military action camp, I feel uncomfortably, massively so, sitting by and watching them kill each other.

Hmmm.

I understand. Me too. But I'd feel worse if I was in favour of supporting either side - which three successive UN reports make clear are both guilty of major human rights violations, torture, rape, use of child soldiers. There are no good guys here. Though, that said, the UN identify more violations from the Assad troops and his militia.

Over 2 million have fled the country. They need aid.

[thebish]

I wonder how quick the West would be to 'bomb' Russia if Putin used chemical weapons in Chechnya or parts of the Caucasus's?
Nothing like double standards is there!

meanwhile - back in May of this year:

A United Nations inquiry into human rights abuses in Syria has found evidence that rebel forces may have used chemical weapons, its lead investigator has revealed.

Carla Del Ponte, a member of the UN Independent Commission of Inquiry on Syria, said that testimony gathered from casualties and medical staff indicated that the nerve agent sarin was used by rebel fighters.

“Our investigators have been in neighbouring countries interviewing victims, doctors and field hospitals and, according to their report of last week which I have seen, there are strong, concrete suspicions but not yet incontrovertible proof of the use of sarin gas, from the way the victims were treated,” Ms Del Ponte said in an interview broadcast on Swiss-Italian television on Sunday. “This was used on the part of the opposition, the rebels, not by the government authorities,” she added.

Can you give me a source for this? I've just had a quick look through the three reports of this commission on the UN website but can't find this reference. I'm writing to David Crausby (MP for Bolton NE) to urge he speak and vote against armed intervention and in favour of increased humanitarian aid. I'd like to draw his attention to this.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 04920.html

[thebish]

Not saying you're wrong Will. But I wonder if the people of Syria who suffered and are suffering from the Chemical Attacks might laugh at the offer of "humanitarian aid".

Syria is a huge huge mess. Bish has posted a very though provoking piece there.

But whilst I'm far from in the military action camp, I feel uncomfortably, massively so, sitting by and watching them kill each other.

Hmmm.

there is a very large humanitarian-aid need where millions have fled Syria and are now in refugee camps. There is LOTS we could be doing to help - it's just not quite as sexy as wanging in a batch of missiles and claiming a surgical strike and looking tough in a posturing pose...

if you feel uncomfortable doing nowt - send them some of your cash... it's worth a try - you might feel better...

[Bruce Rioja]

You can donate via the Red Cross, here - http://www.redcross.org.uk/syriacrisis/ ... tAodwiQAFw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[thebish]

well done Ed Milliband for at least going as far as insisting that the UN weapons Inspectors be given the time to write their report and that their evidence be brought to the house of commons before any action is taken...

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Maybe all the blood thirsty badtards could concentrate on north Somerset for a few weeks, I'm sure that between them al-quaeda, Assad, Blair, Obama, and anybody else who wants to join in could wipe out 70% of our badgers with no problems... In fact I don't know why we don't all join in. After that fun we could maybe turn our attention to the rest of the pesky life on this planet - far too many disease ridden beasts causing havoc. Theen when we've finished, maybe we could have a game of last man standing. What-o.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Here you go, could recruit these charmers... Three children aged 10, 10 and 11, who broke into a dovecote and shot fifty pet doves with an air rifle in Bookham. Ship the cnuts to north Somerset, and then a one-way ticket to Aleppo. Their talents are obviously needed elsewhere.

[TANGODANCER]

Here you go, could recruit these charmers... Three children aged 10, 10 and 11, who broke into a dovecote and shot fifty pet doves with an air rifle in Bookham. Ship the cnuts to north Somerset, and then a one-way ticket to Aleppo. Their talents are obviously needed elsewhere.

The words arses and tanning spring to mind right off. It's what we'd have got.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Here you go, could recruit these charmers... Three children aged 10, 10 and 11, who broke into a dovecote and shot fifty pet doves with an air rifle in Bookham. Ship the cnuts to north Somerset, and then a one-way ticket to Aleppo. Their talents are obviously needed elsewhere.

The words arses and tanning spring to mind right off. It's what we'd have got.

We'd not have done it. I'd fxcking do it now though, to those tw@ts.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

And I want to hear no nonsense that a ten year old doesn't know what a cnut it is. They do.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

... A pair of cnuts called Martin and Wayne. Hope you're proud of yourselves you pair of tossers after spray painting your names on Old Harry Rocks. Cxnts.

[Bruce Rioja]

... A pair of cnuts called Martin and Wayne. Hope you're proud of yourselves you pair of tossers after spray painting your names on Old Harry Rocks. Cxnts.

c*nts indeed. Likewise anyone that's ever contributed in anyway to the vandalism up and around Rivington. c*nts.

[bwfcdan94]

This is just sick their have been several examples of rap[e gangs throughout England in recent years and sadly allegations of one in Bolton have now come to light .Hope the little girl gets all the support she needs given what a difficult time it sounds like she has been to especially given my little sister is of the same age as her.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-ma ... r-23861398

[Harry Genshaw]

... A pair of cnuts called Martin and Wayne. Hope you're proud of yourselves you pair of tossers after spray painting your names on Old Harry Rocks. Cxnts.

c*nts indeed. Likewise anyone that's ever contributed in anyway to the vandalism up and around Rivington. c*nts.

That'll be United Utilities who have been behaving like complete to55ers over the area for the last 18 or so months