The Great Art Debate

[William the White]

I thought this was a really interesting programme... And did include scenes from Cordoba, and especially the mosque, and it always cheers me, perhaps especially in December, to see this beautiful city...

Tango, is, of course, right, Islamic art will not show the human form. But i liked the fact that the programme showed the Sheikh's bath house in Jordan with its explicit depictions of the Islamic heaven... Cool breezes, forests, fountains of wine, houris, love making etc... It missed the fact that this was clearly a ruler indulging himself in the transgressive, in a particularly opulent and explicit way, when he was naked - in his bath, and looking up to the ceiling where all his fantasies were being enacted, in bright colours, and jewels!

Calligraphy, of course, the bish... To my eyes, perhaps yours (?), Arabic script looks like an ornament, so beautiful, and calligraphy was one of the great accomplishments of Arabic art (stories in Arabian Nights talk of the 'Seven Writings' - different calligraphies)... There must be hundreds, thousands of miles of Q'ranic inscription around the Islamic buildings of the world...

For me, the shots of the mosque at Cordoba, too brief, were the highlight... but well done them for avoiding the grotesque desecration of the stupid catholic Cathedral at the middle of it...

Found it all highly interesting and carried on to watch Simon Sebag Montefiore's Rome.
So much knowlege, intelligence and skill in the past. History is, always has been, a fascinating subject. Almost the entire upper halves of all the Alhambras rooms are covered in Arabic script with geometrical glazed tiling below. Sadly, time is gradually taking its toll on many of the worlds ancient wonders.

Edit. The mosaic work in the Dome of the Rock was just staggering.

The inscription, repeated several hundred times, throughout the palace, reads Only God Conquers. So many ways to interpret this, obviously... modesty, or a claim to Glory...

But I am with you in the 'wow' of the Alhambra... no one should die without having seen it... I'm told that this is only possible in strictly organised guided tours these days... Even so... I'd say 'go'... But grateful this was not the case in 1983, 1987 or 1991.

[Gary the Enfield]

William I was at the Alhambra Palaces in October this year and they were still spectacular and not at all regimented. You have to book a specific time and date to arrive, of course, as numbers are restricted. Once inside however you are free to explore as you please.

[William the White]

William I was at the Alhambra Palaces in October this year and they were still spectacular and not at all regimented. You have to book a specific time and date to arrive, of course, as numbers are restricted. Once inside however you are free to explore as you please.

Oh, that's good to know... thanks, Gary...

Isn't it just wonderful?

[TANGODANCER]

The inscription, repeated several hundred times, throughout the palace, reads Only God Conquers. So many ways to interpret this, obviously... modesty, or a claim to Glory...

But I am with you in the 'wow' of the Alhambra... no one should die without having seen it... I'm told that this is only possible in strictly organised guided tours these days... Even so... I'd say 'go'... But grateful this was not the case in 1983, 1987 or... can't remember the next two...

I think it's a sentiment that all religions can interpret and share universally as it's so direct. Most Islamic quotes mention Mohamed and that's where all the disagreement starts.

I've been on a couple of guided tours of the Alhambra but we could wander about and meet up later, but one year just wandered in via the Sacramonte side, through the Generalife gardens, and strolled around at leisure. Far better.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

An interesting dichotomy, elitism and ignorance... The first is unforgivable, the second equally so... the first the responsibility of the individual, the second that of the society... The first is despicable, the second alterable...

Absolute tosh, but the fact that we disagree on this fundamental point is not news to you.

As I always say, if I ever have the misfortune of lying on an operating table, I'll be keeping my fingers crossed that the surgeon standing over me is the member of some kind of elite.

We should promote, celebrate and cultivate elites, not mediocrity. For me, elitism is in with apple pie and motherhood in the list of things that are self-evidently good.

[Montreal Wanderer]

An interesting dichotomy, elitism and ignorance... The first is unforgivable, the second equally so... the first the responsibility of the individual, the second that of the society... The first is despicable, the second alterable...

Absolute tosh, but the fact that we disagree on this fundamental point is not news to you.

As I always say, if I ever have the misfortune of lying on an operating table, I'll be keeping my fingers crossed that the surgeon standing over me is the member of some kind of elite.

We should promote, celebrate and cultivate elites, not mediocrity. For me, elitism is in with apple pie and motherhood in the list of things that are self-evidently good.

I think you belong on this side of the Atlantic, young man - go West!

[Gary the Enfield]

William I was at the Alhambra Palaces in October this year and they were still spectacular and not at all regimented. You have to book a specific time and date to arrive, of course, as numbers are restricted. Once inside however you are free to explore as you please.

Oh, that's good to know... thanks, Gary...

Isn't it just wonderful?

Yes it is.

TD put me onto it when I mentioned we were staying on the Costa Tropical for half term. Well worth the drive (and temperature drop) into the Sierra Nevada.

An amazing contrast too was the flamboyant decadence of the palaces and their grounds compared with the poverty of the cave dwellers on the main road heading towards them from central Granada.

[TANGODANCER]

An amazing contrast too was the flamboyant decadence of the palaces and their grounds compared with the poverty of the cave dwellers on the main road heading towards them from central Granada.

Pretty much the story on Spain's costas in general Gary. Get away from the glitz and there are stacks of cement monstrosities not far inland. If it hadn't been for the advent of tourism and immigration, Spain would still be "different". I absolutely love the place and much of that is the real Spain outside the tourist areas. The old saying that "Africa starts at the Pyrenees" wasn't far from the truth while Franco was still alive. Spain's history is one of the most fascinating in the world. There used to be a cafe just outside Granada called Suspiro del Moro , ( Last sigh of the Moor) where, the story goes, it was from there that Boabdil took his last look at his beloved city before surrendering to the Ferdinand and Isabella. It was the last city to fall in 1492 after just short of eight hundred years of Moorish occupation.

Sorry to go on, but it's fascinating.

[William the White]

An amazing contrast too was the flamboyant decadence of the palaces and their grounds compared with the poverty of the cave dwellers on the main road heading towards them from central Granada.

Pretty much the story on Spain's costas in general Gary. Get away from the glitz and there are stacks of cement monstrosities not far inland. If it hadn't been for the advent of tourism and immigration, Spain would still be "different". I absolutely love the place and much of that is the real Spain outside the tourist areas. The old saying that "Africa starts at the Pyrenees" wasn't far from the truth while Franco was still alive. Spain's history is one of the most fascinating in the world. There used to be a cafe just outside Granada called Suspiro del Moro , ( Last sigh of the Moor) where, the story goes, it was from there that Boabdil took his last look at his beloved city before surrendering to the Ferdinand and Isabella. It was the last city to fall in 1492 after just short of eight hundred years of Moorish occupation.

Sorry to go on, but it's fascinating.

By 1492 there was hardly anything left of the tiny Roman camp that founded Granada, or the Visigothic settlement that followed it. The Granada of 1492 was created by the Moors - it was a Moorish city, so, obviously moors lived there. In that sense they 'occupied' it. The Christian conquest, with its savage and tyrannical aftermath was no liberation for the City.

Even now the only reason to visit Granada is its Moorish heritage. The renaissance city is without serious architectural interest, and the modern city is hot, dusty and miserable.

Boabdil's mum was a sweetie, wasn't she? It's alleged that she said, as he gazed back on the conquered city, and wept: 'don't weep like a woman for what you couldn't defend like a man.'

That's true motherhood, self evidently as comforting as apple pie and expert surgery.

[TANGODANCER]

An amazing contrast too was the flamboyant decadence of the palaces and their grounds compared with the poverty of the cave dwellers on the main road heading towards them from central Granada.

Pretty much the story on Spain's costas in general Gary. Get away from the glitz and there are stacks of cement monstrosities not far inland. If it hadn't been for the advent of tourism and immigration, Spain would still be "different". I absolutely love the place and much of that is the real Spain outside the tourist areas. The old saying that "Africa starts at the Pyrenees" wasn't far from the truth while Franco was still alive. Spain's history is one of the most fascinating in the world. There used to be a cafe just outside Granada called Suspiro del Moro , ( Last sigh of the Moor) where, the story goes, it was from there that Boabdil took his last look at his beloved city before surrendering to the Ferdinand and Isabella. It was the last city to fall in 1492 after just short of eight hundred years of Moorish occupation.

Sorry to go on, but it's fascinating.

By 1492 there was hardly anything left of the tiny Roman camp that founded Granada, or the Visigothic settlement that followed it. The Granada of 1492 was created by the Moors - it was a Moorish city, so, obviously moors lived there. In that sense they 'occupied' it. The Christian conquest, with its savage and tyrannical aftermath was no liberation for the City.

Even now the only reason to visit Granada is its Moorish heritage. The renaissance city is without serious architectural interest, and the modern city is hot, dusty and miserable.

Boabdil's mum was a sweetie, wasn't she? It's alleged that she said, as he gazed back on the conquered city, and wept: 'don't weep like a woman for what you couldn't defend like a man.'

That's true motherhood, self evidently as comforting as apple pie and expert surgery.

No argument with the basics, but you might note I said "It was the last city to fall" Will, meaning in Spain basically. Sorry if I didn't make that clear. Despite your anti-Spanish Christian views, Spain was Spain before 711. The Moors invaded it and basically took it by force, ie empiring, which even we aren't immune from. The fact that they ruled most of it for almost eight hundred years still can't alter that fact. I in no way pretend not to know of the bloodshed, hypocracy and greed on both sides in all that time. The splinter kingdoms in-fighting, caused by the amount of sons by the Caliphs many wives each claiming their share of inheritance, was as much a factor of their demise as the reconquest was. One of Granada's most famous historical notes is of the Abencerage clan who were invited to the Alhambara for a meal and thirty six of them murdered as they ate there. Nice neighbours.

The Moors always claimed that Andalusia was Allah's gift to them but I'm not sure if he told them to wipe half the Spanish people out to open it. All a matter of how you wish to see it.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

An amazing contrast too was the flamboyant decadence of the palaces and their grounds compared with the poverty of the cave dwellers on the main road heading towards them from central Granada.

Pretty much the story on Spain's costas in general Gary. Get away from the glitz and there are stacks of cement monstrosities not far inland. If it hadn't been for the advent of tourism and immigration, Spain would still be "different". I absolutely love the place and much of that is the real Spain outside the tourist areas. The old saying that "Africa starts at the Pyrenees" wasn't far from the truth while Franco was still alive. Spain's history is one of the most fascinating in the world. There used to be a cafe just outside Granada called Suspiro del Moro , ( Last sigh of the Moor) where, the story goes, it was from there that Boabdil took his last look at his beloved city before surrendering to the Ferdinand and Isabella. It was the last city to fall in 1492 after just short of eight hundred years of Moorish occupation.

Sorry to go on, but it's fascinating.

By 1492 there was hardly anything left of the tiny Roman camp that founded Granada, or the Visigothic settlement that followed it. The Granada of 1492 was created by the Moors - it was a Moorish city, so, obviously moors lived there. In that sense they 'occupied' it. The Christian conquest, with its savage and tyrannical aftermath was no liberation for the City.

Even now the only reason to visit Granada is its Moorish heritage. The renaissance city is without serious architectural interest, and the modern city is hot, dusty and miserable.

Boabdil's mum was a sweetie, wasn't she? It's alleged that she said, as he gazed back on the conquered city, and wept: 'don't weep like a woman for what you couldn't defend like a man.'

That's true motherhood, self evidently as comforting as apple pie and expert surgery.

The Visigoth 'settlement' was a city (it had its own diocese and bishop) - there's hardly anything left of it because the moors razed it to the ground before building Granada on top of the smoking charnel ground that was left.
[You are talking about the warriors of Islam that expanded the Umma by the sword, those moors?]

[William the White]

The Visigoth 'settlement' was a city (it had its own diocese and bishop) - there's hardly anything left of it because the moors razed it to the ground before building Granada on top of the smoking charnel ground that was left.
[You are talking about the warriors of Islam that expanded the Umma by the sword, those moors?]

Yes, that'll be the one.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

The Visigoth 'settlement' was a city (it had its own diocese and bishop) - there's hardly anything left of it because the moors razed it to the ground before building Granada on top of the smoking charnel ground that was left.
[You are talking about the warriors of Islam that expanded the Umma by the sword, those moors?]

Yes, that'll be the one.

Well it was Arabs and Berbers rather than Moors, but we'll agree to agree then.

[TANGODANCER]

To put the whole thing into perspective, Spain has had a total history of bloodshed, occupation and ownership from almost time immemorial. Romans (600 years), Visigoths, various Ismlamic Moorish/Berber factions, Almoravid, Almohads etc,(800 years) Spanish Christian re-ocuppation and the Inquisition and expulsion of the Jews. None of it is very much boast-worthy. End of day, just another gigantic "God wills it" proclamation that's ever been used as a disguise for greed, wealth and power. What else is new?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

To put the whole thing into perspective, Spain has had a total history of bloodshed, occupation and ownership from almost time immemorial. Romans (600 years), Visigoths, various Ismlamic Moorish/Berber factions, Almoravid, Almohads etc,(800 years) Spanish Christian re-ocuppation and the Inquisition and expulsion of the Jews. None of it is very much boast-worthy. End of day, just another gigantic "God wills it" proclamation that's ever been used as a disguise for greed, wealth and power. What else is new?

and that's without mentioning the overthrow of Tartessos by the Carthaginians, the celtic influx, the Alans, Huns, Vandals, the extirpation of the southern Cathars, Franco and his attempted destruction of the Catalans, the horrors of the Peninsula War; and that's not even including the horrors the goddam Spaniards themselves exported such as the conquistador led destruction of the Inca and Aztec civilizations. Bloody bunch, those Iberians. Steer well clear.

[TANGODANCER]

To put the whole thing into perspective, Spain has had a total history of bloodshed, occupation and ownership from almost time immemorial. Romans (600 years), Visigoths, various Ismlamic Moorish/Berber factions, Almoravid, Almohads etc,(800 years) Spanish Christian re-ocuppation and the Inquisition and expulsion of the Jews. None of it is very much boast-worthy. End of day, just another gigantic "God wills it" proclamation that's ever been used as a disguise for greed, wealth and power. What else is new?

and that's without mentioning the overthrow of Tartessos by the Carthaginians, the celtic influx, the Alans, Huns, Vandals, the extirpation of the southern Cathars, Franco and his attempted destruction of the Catalans, the horrors of the Peninsula War; and that's not even including the horrors the goddam Spaniards themselves exported such as the conquistador led destruction of the Inca and Aztec civilizations. Bloody bunch, those Iberians. Steer well clear.

You could add the English occupation from the 1960's, taking advantage of their sunshine, cheap land, food and booze, causing bar fights and vommiting all over their streets and using it as a retreat for drug barons and on-the-run lowlifes and you can't even blame God for any of that. Great country, shame about the population.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

No. It wasn't me.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-20444436

but it reminds me that nobody's put an offer in for my theoretical cat's painting


Lost Leopard Spot's Cat No1

[William the White]

My wife said, last week, that she really wants to go to New York so she can see the Rothko...

I don't think she's interested in theoretical cats though...

[Lost Leopard Spot]

My wife said, last week, that she really wants to go to New York so she can see the Rothko...

I don't think she's interested in theoretical cats though...

[TANGODANCER]

Okay, I've just Google Imaged a whole rake of this Rothko's "art". If this is great art worth millions, then I'm finally admitting I know absolutely nothing,nothing,nothing about great art. All I see are endless colour daubs. I retire defeated.