The Politics Thread

[thebish]

Hard-left “Trotsky entryists” have been “twisting the arms” of young Labour members to shore up Jeremy Corbyn’s control of the party, the deputy leader Tom Watson has said.

In a wide-ranging interview with the Guardian, in which he also called for the reintroduction of elections to the shadow cabinet and the return of the electoral college for selecting future Labour leaders, Watson said he was concerned that infiltration by Trotskyists would end up destroying the party.

Many members of the grassroots Momentum movement, set up to support Corbyn’s leadership, are “deeply interested in political change, in building a more equal society, and are just on a journey in politics that they’re new to”, Watson said. But he suggested some are being manipulated by seasoned hard-left operators.

“There are some old hands twisting young arms in this process, and I’m under no illusions about what’s going on. They are caucusing and factionalising and putting pressure where they can, and that’s how Trotsky entryists operate. Sooner or later, that always ends up in disaster. It always ends up destroying the institutions that are vulnerable, unless you deal with it.”

He added that some “Trots”, who have returned to Labour after being driven out decades ago, “certainly don’t have the best interests of the Labour party at heart. They see the Labour party as a vehicle for revolutionary socialism, and they’re not remotely interested in winning elections, and that’s a problem.”

I knew the buggers had not curled up and hibernated.

arm-twisting in politics??? never!!! bring back the days of Blair and Campbell.... oh....

I thought he was supposed to be different?

i doubt that corbyn is involved in anything like as much arm-twisting as blair/campbell/mandelson unleashed... I think he IS different in his approach to politics - you only have tio have ewatched over the last 9 or 10 months to see him NOT descend to personality attacks in the face of extreme personal atacks against him. He'll never be PM - but I don't think he can rightly be accused of encouraging bullying or racism...

people SAY that the poor young vulnerable young folk of labour are having their arms twisted - but I've heard of no such young people saying so - just older people saying they think they are... have you heard from any of your fellow labour young 'uns? are YOU being arm-twisted by the evil trots?

there is a mighty fight going on in Labour - I doubt that Corbyn even NEEDS to arm-twist, he has such huge support... I'd wager the arm-twisting (smears/lies/abuse) has been FAR greater against corbyn from the press and from constant blairite coup-attempts than anything he has mustered...

[bobo the clown]

^^ so you're happy with what it's clear Labour is becoming ?

.... & any obtuse "i don't know, what are they becoming ?" bllx answer will be treated as it deserves.

[Worthy4England]

Bit like I said it would be nigh on impossible for Cameron to stay if he was on the losing side in the referendum, can't see how the "rebel" MP's could continue to follow the whip if Corbyn re-elected...

[bobo the clown]

Bit like I said it would be nigh on impossible for Cameron to stay if he was on the losing side in the referendum, can't see how the "rebel" MP's could continue to follow the whip if Corbyn re-elected...

Agreed. But they remain MP's. So they'll firm some other sort of rump whilst being deselected and replaced by very unsavory types ... who will largely not win at the next election. Meanwhile will be hounded by these sweet, lovely new members.

Very messy.

[thebish]

^^ so you're happy with what it's clear Labour is becoming ?

.... & any obtuse "i don't know, what are they becoming ?" bllx answer will be treated as it deserves.

not really - as it is becoming unelectable - but I wasn't happy with what it was under brown or milliband either...

i am happy, though, with labour's shift to becoming a left-wing alternative rather than a slightly blander and less convinced version of what we already have - I just wish they could find a left wing leader who could do anywhere near as well as Jeremy's phenomenal galvanising of the ordinary memership whilst doing better then jeremy's disastrous MP-party management... I am not convinced that man is Owen Smith - who may have MPs support - it helps to be supported by your immediate collegues - but I can't see him appealing very far beyond the plotters - if he has anything in his favour it is that he was a better choice than Eagles - which isn't saying much...

still - another 4yrs to go until a general election - that's a feck long time in politics - so I'm not pressing any panic buttons just yet...


are you happy with where Osbourne and co. took us - and where May is taking us (out of Europe) and the rest? (tell us what you think... and any bllx answer will be treated as it deserves..)

[Worthy4England]

Should be interesting if they slung their hooks...on numbers they'd be the official opposition. Which could push official Labour Party into 3rd 4th place, meaning they don't get air-time in HoC. Whilst the second largest party is generally the opposition, officially the Speaker determines who are the official Opposition...

[bobo the clown]

I'm delighted we're out of the increasingly failing railroading toward a United States of Europe. I'm delighted we witheld the browbeating toward joining a € experiment which was always doomed to fail. The pity is that we won't be immune from the effects of its slow death and inevitable demise.

As I said prior to the vote, even if we exit we won't be a basket-case but we WILL have 12m or more of mess before things calm down (not that I actually expected a Brexit).

"Where Osborne got us" was a fckg site better than anyone predicted. Even the IMF.

I'm not delighted at having no real opposition. Silly things get said & done when no-one can gainsay you. I am concerned about new alliances. It's pretty clear UKIP will become a major player in traditional Labour territory. I see the SWP et al becoming the owners of Labour. I see decent leftist people being bullied and disenfranchised. I forsee that street politics will replace democratic process and we're in for a good few years of ugly mayhem.

I'm unhappy that Owen Smith, with a manifesto that makes Michael Foot seem sane, is the more reasoned option.

But this was all utterly foreseeable when those clowns decided it would be nice to let Corbyn be on the ballot paper.

[Hoboh]

I'm delighted we're out of the increasingly failing railroading toward a United States of Europe. I'm delighted we witheld the browbeating toward joining a € experiment which was always doomed to fail. The pity is that we won't be immune from the effects of its slow death and inevitable demise.

As I said prior to the vote, even if we exit we won't be a basket-case but we WILL have 12m or more of mess before things calm down (not that I actually expected a Brexit).

"Where Osborne got us" was a fckg site better than anyone predicted. Even the IMF.

I'm not delighted at having no real opposition. Silly things get said & done when no-one can gainsay you. I am concerned about new alliances. It's pretty clear UKIP will become a major player in traditional Labour territory. I see the SWP et Al becoming the owners of Labour. I see decent leftist people being browbeating and disenfranchised. I forsee that street politics will replace democratic process and we're in for a good few years of ugly mayhem.

I'm unhappy that Owen Smith, with a manifesto that makes Michael Foot seem sane, is the more reasoned option.

But this was all utterly foreseeable when those clowns decided it would be nice to let Corbyn be on the ballot paper.

I agree, mostly, except on Osborne he gave a whole new meaning to idiot.

[Worthy4England]

I'm not at all convinced that UKIP don't pose a threat to the Tories as well. Especially if they end up with a fudge on Trade terms that still has high immigration. Whilst I reckon most of the conversation on here was pretty well mannered, I'm not sure that universally applies across the Country...

[thebish]

I'm delighted we're out of the increasingly failing railroading toward a United States of Europe. I'm delighted we witheld the browbeating toward joining a € experiment which was always doomed to fail. The pity is that we won't be immune from the effects of its slow death and inevitable demise.

As I said prior to the vote, even if we exit we won't be a basket-case but we WILL have 12m or more of mess before things calm down (not that I actually expected a Brexit).

"Where Osborne got us" was a fckg site better than anyone predicted. Even the IMF.

I'm not delighted at having no real opposition. Silly things get said & done when no-one can gainsay you. I am concerned about new alliances. It's pretty clear UKIP will become a major player in traditional Labour territory. I see the SWP et al becoming the owners of Labour. I see decent leftist people being bullied and disenfranchised. I forsee that street politics will replace democratic process and we're in for a good few years of ugly mayhem.

I'm unhappy that Owen Smith, with a manifesto that makes Michael Foot seem sane, is the more reasoned option.

But this was all utterly foreseeable when those clowns decided it would be nice to let Corbyn be on the ballot paper.

so - it sounds like just about everything's peachy in your world! enjoy it - and stop being so feck grumpy!

also - if you genuinely ARE not delighted at having no real opposition - why the feckity-feck are you one of those "clowns" who voted for Corbyn?

[Hoboh]

I'm delighted we're out of the increasingly failing railroading toward a United States of Europe. I'm delighted we witheld the browbeating toward joining a € experiment which was always doomed to fail. The pity is that we won't be immune from the effects of its slow death and inevitable demise.

As I said prior to the vote, even if we exit we won't be a basket-case but we WILL have 12m or more of mess before things calm down (not that I actually expected a Brexit).

"Where Osborne got us" was a fckg site better than anyone predicted. Even the IMF.

I'm not delighted at having no real opposition. Silly things get said & done when no-one can gainsay you. I am concerned about new alliances. It's pretty clear UKIP will become a major player in traditional Labour territory. I see the SWP et al becoming the owners of Labour. I see decent leftist people being bullied and disenfranchised. I forsee that street politics will replace democratic process and we're in for a good few years of ugly mayhem.

I'm unhappy that Owen Smith, with a manifesto that makes Michael Foot seem sane, is the more reasoned option.

But this was all utterly foreseeable when those clowns decided it would be nice to let Corbyn be on the ballot paper.

so - it sounds like just about everything's peachy in your world! enjoy it - and stop being so feck grumpy!

also - if you genuinely ARE not delighted at having no real opposition - why the feckity-feck are you one of those "clowns" who voted for Corbyn?

On the face of it bish, there is very little of any substance to vote into position of leader of the Labour party, when the shadow cabinet resigned it was like 'who the f*ck are you'?

[BWFC_Insane]

Corbyn is a cynical nasty old bitter man who knows his actions will harm the poor and disadvantaged but doesn't care so long as he recreates old Labour and sticks it up those who made the party electable.

That people cannot see this astounds me. Corbyn will do more harm to the poor and those dependent on public services than any Tory government will manage. He knows that but isn't bothered.

[thebish]

Corbyn is a cynical nasty old bitter man who knows his actions will harm the poor and disadvantaged but doesn't care so long as he recreates old Labour and sticks it up those who made the party electable.

That people cannot see this astounds me. Corbyn will do more harm to the poor and those dependent on public services than any Tory government will manage. He knows that but isn't bothered.

it takes one to.....

seriously - if I had to pick which out of you or Corbyn sounded most bitter, it'd be you every time!

[Beefheart]

Corbyn is a cynical nasty old bitter man who knows his actions will harm the poor and disadvantaged but doesn't care so long as he recreates old Labour and sticks it up those who made the party electable.

That people cannot see this astounds me. Corbyn will do more harm to the poor and those dependent on public services than any Tory government will manage. He knows that but isn't bothered.

it takes one to.....

seriously - if I had to pick which out of you or Corbyn sounded most bitter, it'd be you every time!

That may be, but only one of them id currently the leader of the Labour party.

[thebish]

Corbyn is a cynical nasty old bitter man who knows his actions will harm the poor and disadvantaged but doesn't care so long as he recreates old Labour and sticks it up those who made the party electable.

That people cannot see this astounds me. Corbyn will do more harm to the poor and those dependent on public services than any Tory government will manage. He knows that but isn't bothered.

it takes one to.....

seriously - if I had to pick which out of you or Corbyn sounded most bitter, it'd be you every time!

That may be, but only one of them id currently the leader of the Labour party.

that's true... I really do not buy the ridiculous attacks suggesting that Corbyn does not care about the poor and is some kind of purely cynical political animal. that really doesn't ring true with his record.

[BWFC_Insane]

Corbyn is a cynical nasty old bitter man who knows his actions will harm the poor and disadvantaged but doesn't care so long as he recreates old Labour and sticks it up those who made the party electable.

That people cannot see this astounds me. Corbyn will do more harm to the poor and those dependent on public services than any Tory government will manage. He knows that but isn't bothered.

it takes one to.....

seriously - if I had to pick which out of you or Corbyn sounded most bitter, it'd be you every time!

That may be, but only one of them id currently the leader of the Labour party.

that's true... I really do not buy the ridiculous attacks suggesting that Corbyn does not care about the poor and is some kind of purely cynical political animal. that really doesn't ring true with his record.

His record? Look at what is happening. Seriously look. He, and his team are telling his supporters that winning an election is an irrelevance. Pulling the Labour Party back to the hard left is their only aim. feck actually making any difference to anyone's lives. More important to oust the Blairites and score one over those who crushed their hard left rebellion during Kinnock's time.

This isn't a clash of ideologies, it's not some poor old man who has unfortunately attracted an extreme element. It is calculated and deliberate destruction of a majority MP group within a political party. If the party is destroyed in the process then so be it. If the very disadvantaged people he bases his political philospophies around are also fecked over in the process then also so be it.

He turns a blind eye to so many things, deliberately so. I've more or less voted Labour my whole life. They won't get my vote whilst Corbyn is in charge. And I will be amongst millions who desert them for the same reasons.

[thebish]

^ aye - but like I said, I don't buy your analysis...

[Worthy4England]

Corbyn hasn't recently been converted as an icon of extreme left. He's always been on that wing of the party. He's no buggers fool and is a bloke who wouldn't dream of letting niceties get in the way of his deeply held beliefs which are often well articulated. I don't doubt his motives although I doubt Momentum's. I do doubt his ability to get 11m voters to agree with him.

[Prufrock]

i doubt that corbyn is involved in anything like as much arm-twisting as blair/campbell/mandelson unleashed... I think he IS different in his approach to politics - you only have tio have ewatched over the last 9 or 10 months to see him NOT descend to personality attacks in the face of extreme personal atacks against him. He'll never be PM - but I don't think he can rightly be accused of encouraging bullying or racism...

people SAY that the poor young vulnerable young folk of labour are having their arms twisted - but I've heard of no such young people saying so - just older people saying they think they are... have you heard from any of your fellow labour young 'uns? are YOU being arm-twisted by the evil trots?

there is a mighty fight going on in Labour - I doubt that Corbyn even NEEDS to arm-twist, he has such huge support... I'd wager the arm-twisting (smears/lies/abuse) has been FAR greater against corbyn from the press and from constant blairite coup-attempts than anything he has mustered...

So, I went to my CLP meeting tonight, Jeremy's constituency...

My friend Stu and I decided to go together. The meeting was advertised as starting at 8pm, with ballot papers and entry from 7.15. We arrived with chippy tea and a couple of bottles at about 7.25 and sat waiting outside the church it was being held at. We got our papers from the tables outside at 7.45 and were told there wasn't any more room in the venue and we'd have to stay outside but ballot boxes would be brought out. We weren't having that so we went looking around the back and found a service/disabled lift that took us down into the basement hall and we snuck in at the back. That ninja moment was the highlight of the evening.

If I'm honest, my first hope was that we'd get a really good debate for and against both candidates. Failing that, I hoped it would kick off so I'd have a story to tell. Neither happened. It was pretty depressing and the quality was pretty low. The format was simply speakers with two minutes in turn, one for Jeremy, one for Owen and repeat. There was a lot of venting and not much argument and answer, but here are a few thoughts and points I noticed:

-the average age of those present was about 50. If Jeremy is inspiring a movement of the young, they aren't turning up to his CLP meeting.

-There were about 20 speakers altogether, 10 each. 3 of those for Owen Smith had worked with or close to Corbyn. Most of the rest had voted for him last year and lost faith since. Almost all of their arguments could be summed up as "he's a nice guy but a crap leader".

-Of the speakers for Cornyn, they tended to fall into two groups. The first told nice anecdotes about the things he has done as our local mp or campaigning on specific issues. If the purpose of the meeting had been to nominate our candidate for local mp they would have been v convincing. The second group reminded me of Trump supporters. They just raged in incoherent stream-of-consciousness against pet hates without remotely addressing the subject, be it Margaret Thatcher, the Iraq war, neo-liberalism, or the Tories. Not one speaker for Cornyn, not one, set out an argument how, vs Smith, he's a better leader. I don't mean their argument wasn't convincing, I mean they didn't even make one.

-the tone for the first two-thirds was perfectly fine. The odd heckle from both sides along the lines of "that's not true" "he didn't say that" etc. Then it got weird. A guy spoke for Corbyn but I tuned out and didn't really hear what he said; I just caught the end of his sentence which was "...Israeli Defence Minister". There was then a bit of a fuss in the room, some people shouting him down, and others shouting them down in turn. The chair warned him to be very careful about what he said. From then on the Corbyn people were riled and almost every Smith speaker was heckled, usually with surround sound - "that's bullshit" being the main one.

-The last speaker of the night was a Jewish woman whose first language wasn't English. She spoke about how she felt anti-Semitism was a real problem in the party at the moment and used the guy above as an example. She was then shouted down for most of the rest of her two minutes.

-as we were walking out I asked a man what the guy has said about Israel. He said he hadn't heard but it had been blown out of proportion by the pro-Israel lobby. Perceptive for someone who hadn't heard what was said.

Two stars. Would not recommend.

[thebish]

^ you are describing just about any constituency party meeting...

as a young labour member - was your arm twisted?