Brexit or Britin

[Hoboh]

I'm open to any argument that will point out where my£3000 PA is

Does the UK government provide this? You imply you get a lack of value from your tax money that goes to the EU. Do you get better value from the UK Government and if so how?
We are net contributors to the EU so yes we get less out than we put in. The £3000 is the figure according to Europhiles that every household in the UK benefit from by virtue of membership.

or how 3 million jobs will cease to exist on the Friday after the vote

I don't think anyone is saying they will all disappear, nor that they suddenly disappear seconds after a vote. A withdrawal will take place of years as will any changes (good ones or bad ones). Some jobs will go over time, possibly replaced by new ones in time.
Again this is a vague (surprise, surprise) figure presented as a fact by those factual Europhiles, admittedly no time limit (kind of lacks the fear factor) but very often quoted. I saw one pro EU group had inflated the figure last week it hit 4.5-5 million jobs depended on our continuing membership. I hope you get the drift of this.

and even why Germany will just chuck away a + 51 billion Euro trade surplus with us. Its second largest after the USA.

There are countries, just like people that will cut off their nose to spite their face. The UK leaving will cause a lot of damage to the EU and there will be some that will try to make sure the UK pay a heavy price. Will they be successful? I don't know.

Before you accuse me of being an agent of project fear, I would point out that I am firmly stuck on the fence at the moment. I have both worked for the EU and provided services as a contractor to the EU. I have a good idea of what goes on, both good and bad. I'm waiting for either side to convince me and I'm not expecting much from either. Boris doing hurt impressions of Sturgeon/Salmond isn't going to convince me and nor is Cameron's so called deal.

People can more or less do as they please with nose surgery, countries have electorates to answer to, a press that will dig and hound them if their economy takes a hit, so childish behaviour won't wash.
Yes the EU will take a hit, one reason why to sit down and talk about proper reform would have been the sensible option, Cameron didn't want in reality, he thought he could pay lip service and hold his party together.
The EU was doomed when it started enlarging with basket case countries, virtually, in some cases, 50 years behind the more progressive ones. The main reason for enlargement was the US and NATO to stop any chance of Soviet type influence in future and to encircle Russia.
What do we gain from that? We have to provide defence for most of them, at our cost, we have to pump money into their economies to modernise them year on year, they have high unemployment and poor wages that will take decades to sort, the list is endless.
All the while these countries are enjoying full massive benefits from the EU, again at our expense.
They can not act as one over anything, the migration problem showed up the EU for what it really is, a sham, a club for a few socially engineered minded folk to get together, a supposed super state in the making that cannot even defend its external borders.
If the EU had stayed limited to a group of 12 or so countries, left out chunks of Federalism, stop being a German led attempt to be number one across the European continent, it could well have worked, then slowly enlarged.
Now we have the prospect of a murderous, terrorist supporting state, Turkey, joining the club.
Out will do for me!

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Hoboh - you dodged both questions in the first bit I wrote. No one denies we are net contributors and so far I've not seen any debate on this point, either for or against.

On the second point. As far as I'm aware, the numbers banded about are the number of jobs linked to trade with the EU. I've no doubt the number is a best guess rather than fact. So far no one can tell me how many (if any) of those jobs are at risk. One side says they (the number) are at risk and the other side says, nah it'll be reet. Now, I'm more inclined to believe that some of those jobs will go in the short to medium term as the multinationals shift car production and the like to places like Eastern Europe, Spain and France. Why? Because I don't believe our government is capable of negotiating a trade agreement with the EU giving us the same terms as now within a short to medium time frame. To be honest I don't hold much faith in them negotiating anything much given their history of negotiation. Presumably Jeremy Hunt will be chief negotiator!

On the third point. Have you seen what passes for debate in Parliament? I have no doubt that politicians are childish enough to cut off their nose to spite their face. They'll have no trouble telling their electorates it was them British wankers wanting the world for nothing in return and the deal in place protects German/French jobs etc etc.

The way I see it is that if we leave there will be a mess for some years. At the end of it we may or may not be better off. We'll likely sign up to a TTIP but with even worse terms. We'll rearrange our trade with the booming developing nations and be subject to the boom and bust cycles those nations go through. I don't like the way the EU works and I disagree with a lot of the expansion plans. I'm concerned that our government is competent enough to steer us outside of the EU. I'm concerned what the short to medium term consequences will do to our society (the last 7-8 years will look like a picnic). Until either side can actually provide some believable factual information as to what we can expect then I'm staying on my fence. If I haven't been able to climb off my fence come the day, then I'm not voting to change anything.

[thebish]

I'm voting out! scaremongering are from both side! I've made my mind up with what I actually see in my area.

what is it you see down in cornwall?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I'm voting out! scaremongering are from both side! I've made my mind up with what I actually see in my area.

what is it you see down in cornwall?

I'd have thought a lot of sea with hundreds of Spanish fishing boats sailing on it... that's my guess.

[Worthy4England]

I'm open to any argument that will point out where my£3000 PA is

Does the UK government provide this? You imply you get a lack of value from your tax money that goes to the EU. Do you get better value from the UK Government and if so how?
We are net contributors to the EU so yes we get less out than we put in. The £3000 is the figure according to Europhiles that every household in the UK benefit from by virtue of membership.

or how 3 million jobs will cease to exist on the Friday after the vote

I don't think anyone is saying they will all disappear, nor that they suddenly disappear seconds after a vote. A withdrawal will take place of years as will any changes (good ones or bad ones). Some jobs will go over time, possibly replaced by new ones in time.
Again this is a vague (surprise, surprise) figure presented as a fact by those factual Europhiles, admittedly no time limit (kind of lacks the fear factor) but very often quoted. I saw one pro EU group had inflated the figure last week it hit 4.5-5 million jobs depended on our continuing membership. I hope you get the drift of this.

and even why Germany will just chuck away a + 51 billion Euro trade surplus with us. Its second largest after the USA.

There are countries, just like people that will cut off their nose to spite their face. The UK leaving will cause a lot of damage to the EU and there will be some that will try to make sure the UK pay a heavy price. Will they be successful? I don't know.

Before you accuse me of being an agent of project fear, I would point out that I am firmly stuck on the fence at the moment. I have both worked for the EU and provided services as a contractor to the EU. I have a good idea of what goes on, both good and bad. I'm waiting for either side to convince me and I'm not expecting much from either. Boris doing hurt impressions of Sturgeon/Salmond isn't going to convince me and nor is Cameron's so called deal.

People can more or less do as they please with nose surgery, countries have electorates to answer to, a press that will dig and hound them if their economy takes a hit, so childish behaviour won't wash.
Yes the EU will take a hit, one reason why to sit down and talk about proper reform would have been the sensible option, Cameron didn't want in reality, he thought he could pay lip service and hold his party together.
The EU was doomed when it started enlarging with basket case countries, virtually, in some cases, 50 years behind the more progressive ones. The main reason for enlargement was the US and NATO to stop any chance of Soviet type influence in future and to encircle Russia.
What do we gain from that? We have to provide defence for most of them, at our cost, we have to pump money into their economies to modernise them year on year, they have high unemployment and poor wages that will take decades to sort, the list is endless.
All the while these countries are enjoying full massive benefits from the EU, again at our expense.
They can not act as one over anything, the migration problem showed up the EU for what it really is, a sham, a club for a few socially engineered minded folk to get together, a supposed super state in the making that cannot even defend its external borders.
If the EU had stayed limited to a group of 12 or so countries, left out chunks of Federalism, stop being a German led attempt to be number one across the European continent, it could well have worked, then slowly enlarged.
Now we have the prospect of a murderous, terrorist supporting state, Turkey, joining the club.
Out will do for me!

The figure of £3000 per household didn't come from the Europhiles - it came from the CBI - you know that independent trade body that's worried about all the European Red tape...full report here http://www.cbi.org.uk/global-future/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; it's a great read!

Moving on to US and NATO putting pressure on to enlarge, aren't we members of NATO? Like maybe one of the founder members of NATO? My mind's had a little senior moment there...we the UK put pressure on us (the UK)? Doesn't make much sense...

As for jobs that are reliant on a European supply chain - I doubt even you sat in your white van, wrapped in tin-foil could deny there are jobs in the UK reliant on the EU market. That said - whether it's 10, 1m or 4.5m I have no clue, currently - bit difficult to tell, given that the outers can't explain what it looks like.

The migration problem would still exist, in or out. We're still signed up to the UNHCR. I'm sure all the border checks that we carry out in France, currently, will be much improved...

Turkey...thought they'd be "in" by now. You told me Merkel had issued an order and they were being fast tracked in October. In December they were on the brink of being allowed membership according to the Daily Mail...When is this due to happen - coz it's now March and they still seem to be talking about sending money to them rather than owt else? This doesn't augur well for any sort of quick route to revised trading terms...

[Hoboh]

I'm open to any argument that will point out where my£3000 PA is

Does the UK government provide this? You imply you get a lack of value from your tax money that goes to the EU. Do you get better value from the UK Government and if so how?
We are net contributors to the EU so yes we get less out than we put in. The £3000 is the figure according to Europhiles that every household in the UK benefit from by virtue of membership.

or how 3 million jobs will cease to exist on the Friday after the vote

I don't think anyone is saying they will all disappear, nor that they suddenly disappear seconds after a vote. A withdrawal will take place of years as will any changes (good ones or bad ones). Some jobs will go over time, possibly replaced by new ones in time.
Again this is a vague (surprise, surprise) figure presented as a fact by those factual Europhiles, admittedly no time limit (kind of lacks the fear factor) but very often quoted. I saw one pro EU group had inflated the figure last week it hit 4.5-5 million jobs depended on our continuing membership. I hope you get the drift of this.

and even why Germany will just chuck away a + 51 billion Euro trade surplus with us. Its second largest after the USA.

There are countries, just like people that will cut off their nose to spite their face. The UK leaving will cause a lot of damage to the EU and there will be some that will try to make sure the UK pay a heavy price. Will they be successful? I don't know.

Before you accuse me of being an agent of project fear, I would point out that I am firmly stuck on the fence at the moment. I have both worked for the EU and provided services as a contractor to the EU. I have a good idea of what goes on, both good and bad. I'm waiting for either side to convince me and I'm not expecting much from either. Boris doing hurt impressions of Sturgeon/Salmond isn't going to convince me and nor is Cameron's so called deal.

People can more or less do as they please with nose surgery, countries have electorates to answer to, a press that will dig and hound them if their economy takes a hit, so childish behaviour won't wash.
Yes the EU will take a hit, one reason why to sit down and talk about proper reform would have been the sensible option, Cameron didn't want in reality, he thought he could pay lip service and hold his party together.
The EU was doomed when it started enlarging with basket case countries, virtually, in some cases, 50 years behind the more progressive ones. The main reason for enlargement was the US and NATO to stop any chance of Soviet type influence in future and to encircle Russia.
What do we gain from that? We have to provide defence for most of them, at our cost, we have to pump money into their economies to modernise them year on year, they have high unemployment and poor wages that will take decades to sort, the list is endless.
All the while these countries are enjoying full massive benefits from the EU, again at our expense.
They can not act as one over anything, the migration problem showed up the EU for what it really is, a sham, a club for a few socially engineered minded folk to get together, a supposed super state in the making that cannot even defend its external borders.
If the EU had stayed limited to a group of 12 or so countries, left out chunks of Federalism, stop being a German led attempt to be number one across the European continent, it could well have worked, then slowly enlarged.
Now we have the prospect of a murderous, terrorist supporting state, Turkey, joining the club.
Out will do for me!

The figure of £3000 per household didn't come from the Europhiles - it came from the CBI - you know that independent trade body that's worried about all the European Red tape...full report here http://www.cbi.org.uk/global-future/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; it's a great read!

Moving on to US and NATO putting pressure on to enlarge, aren't we members of NATO? Like maybe one of the founder members of NATO? My mind's had a little senior moment there...we the UK put pressure on us (the UK)? Doesn't make much sense...

As for jobs that are reliant on a European supply chain - I doubt even you sat in your white van, wrapped in tin-foil could deny there are jobs in the UK reliant on the EU market. That said - whether it's 10, 1m or 4.5m I have no clue, currently - bit difficult to tell, given that the outers can't explain what it looks like.

The migration problem would still exist, in or out. We're still signed up to the UNHCR. I'm sure all the border checks that we carry out in France, currently, will be much improved...

Turkey...thought they'd be "in" by now. You told me Merkel had issued an order and they were being fast tracked in October. In December they were on the brink of being allowed membership according to the Daily Mail...When is this due to happen - coz it's now March and they still seem to be talking about sending money to them rather than owt else? This doesn't augur well for any sort of quick route to revised trading terms...

Next you'll be telling me the CBI aren't a bunch of Europhiles

I don't own nor drive nor have ever driven a white van, snob!

Watch this space on Turkey!

[Worthy4England]

You don't reckon then that if the CBI thought "out" was better for their members, they'd not switch sides?

The white van, I unashamedly made up. It was in my project fear handbook. Anyhow I've pointed you to where the £3k came from - how about the outers giving us some figures for customs tariffs or how long it'll take to put in Trade Agreements and how many they envisage us putting in place....they've only had about 25 years to prepare for this moment...what? no? no idea? not a clue? nada? That's sure going to go swimmingly well, then.

I'm still watching this space for turkeys. I might have found one.

[bedwetter2]

According to the WTO, the highest import tariffs charged between members is 4%. The members include all significant trading countries. If the UK cannot negotiate terms better than 4%, then I would agree with you that the Government of the day would be viewed by most as truly incompetent.

But to think that tariffs would cause immense harm to our country is definitely hyperbole. The biggest problem for the UK is that it really doesn't try very hard to export goods, probably because those CBI members you mention are the greater part of the economy and are multinationals with production facilities in a number of nations. Lack of help and incentive to the small and medium sector of businesses also hampers - there really isn't much of an equivalent to the German Mittelstand in the UK, more's the pity.

[Worthy4England]

According to the WTO, the highest import tariffs charged between members is 4%. The members include all significant trading countries. If the UK cannot negotiate terms better than 4%, then I would agree with you that the Government of the day would be viewed by most as truly incompetent.

But to think that tariffs would cause immense harm to our country is definitely hyperbole. The biggest problem for the UK is that it really doesn't try very hard to export goods, probably because those CBI members you mention are the greater part of the economy and are multinationals with production facilities in a number of nations. Lack of help and incentive to the small and medium sector of businesses also hampers - there really isn't much of an equivalent to the German Mittelstand in the UK, more's the pity.

Not quite sure where the 4% has come from, but let's run with it for a minute...that would equate to 9Bn on our EU exports and 11.2Bn on non-EU export - so about 20bn per annum. That's around double our net EU contribution that the outers are grumbling is killing us...

Even at half that - it'd be net/net...and we're being told how much better off we're going to be.

At a macro-economic level, it might be in the noise (but then again so is staying in and not incurring it) - to an individual exporter it could be really significant barrier to competitiveness...

So I'll hyperbole, your hyperbole and ask are you going to stump it up, the taxpayer or pass it on to businesses? - it's just small change...

[Hoboh]

You don't reckon then that if the CBI thought "out" was better for their members, they'd not switch sides?

The white van, I unashamedly made up. It was in my project fear handbook. Anyhow I've pointed you to where the £3k came from - how about the outers giving us some figures for customs tariffs or how long it'll take to put in Trade Agreements and how many they envisage us putting in place....they've only had about 25 years to prepare for this moment...what? no? no idea? not a clue? nada? That's sure going to go swimmingly well, then.

I'm still watching this space for turkeys. I might have found one.

The EU was ready to double aid for Syrian refugees in Turkey, as it bargained with Ankara to do more to stop migrants and refugees arriving on Greece’s shores. EU leaders promised Turkey €6bn (£4.6bn) over three years, twice the €3bn offered last November, according to a draft version of the summit conclusions.
Davutoğlu also promised to tackle people smuggling: “With these new proposals we aim to rescue refugees, discourage those who misuse and exploit their situation and find a new era in Turkey-EU relations.”
He told European leaders Turkey wanted more for its citizens in exchange for helping the EU. He called for visa-liberalisation for 75 million Turks by 1 June, an advance on the October deadline proposed last year, as well as re-starting Turkey’s long-stalled EU accession talks.

There you go, now watch the Germans fudge it!
And yes they are trying.

After 12 hours of talks in Brussels, the German chancellor Angela Merkel described the one in, one out proposal as “a breakthrough” that would deter refugees from making the perilous sea crossing to Greece, but said Europe needed more time to agree final details.

EU leaders will aim to seal the deal with Turkey at another summit on 17-18 March.

The Turkish proposals, which had been agreed with Merkel and Dutch prime minister Mark Rutte on the eve of the summit, came as a surprise to other EU leaders

[bedwetter2]

According to the WTO, the highest import tariffs charged between members is 4%. The members include all significant trading countries. If the UK cannot negotiate terms better than 4%, then I would agree with you that the Government of the day would be viewed by most as truly incompetent.

But to think that tariffs would cause immense harm to our country is definitely hyperbole. The biggest problem for the UK is that it really doesn't try very hard to export goods, probably because those CBI members you mention are the greater part of the economy and are multinationals with production facilities in a number of nations. Lack of help and incentive to the small and medium sector of businesses also hampers - there really isn't much of an equivalent to the German Mittelstand in the UK, more's the pity.

Not quite sure where the 4% has come from, but let's run with it for a minute...that would equate to 9Bn on our EU exports and 11.2Bn on non-EU export - so about 20bn per annum. That's around double our net EU contribution that the outers are grumbling is killing us...

Even at half that - it'd be net/net...and we're being told how much better off we're going to be.

At a macro-economic level, it might be in the noise (but then again so is staying in and not incurring it) - to an individual exporter it could be really significant barrier to competitiveness...

So I'll hyperbole, your hyperbole and ask are you going to stump it up, the taxpayer or pass it on to businesses? - it's just small change...

1. Why would non-EU exports become subject to higher tariffs than at present? There is little likelihood of a bitter and jilted EU persuading client nations to increase tariffs on UK exports to them without a trade war developing where the UK as a net importer holds all the cards.

2. Are the outers grumbling that the "net EU contribution is killing us"? I thought the outers are in essence saying that the net contribution could be more usefully spent in the UK...such as transition arrangements for agriculture once the CAP is no longer a millstone for us and a subsidy for the French, or getting the UK fishing industry into a healthier state, or maybe the NHS could do with a bit more money providing they don't spend it all on wage increases or another layer of management.

3. You will recall that I previously quoted Neil Woodford amongst others as concluding a broadly neutral financial effect would occur as a result of UK exit. Very few informed people will really believe the BS from either side regarding benefits in a financial sense.

4. I don't understand the point you make regarding who should stump something up. What? Why would I or the taxpayer fund any minor business loss in competitiveness when the far bigger variable that all exporters have to fund for themselves is the constant changes in currency exchange rates. Large exporters (the few that we have) and some smaller ones hedge against such changes.

The real reasons to support 'Brexit' should be centred upon a lack of democracy in the EU (Merkel is at it again with Turkey - beware), a continuing loss of judicial powers to that self-same undemocratic organisation, loss of sovereignty (don't believe Cameron), the European Arrest Warrant, no control of borders or until recently no records of who has come into the UK, depressed wages for the lesser paid as a result of freedom of travel and residence for all EU citizens, basket-case members particularly Greece which joined the Euro on fudged evidence of sound finances, the Euro itself. An unholy mess of a currency which just cannot work in the medium term, never mind the long term. It is only good fortune and George Soros in the ERM crisis which woke up some of the more credulous members of parliament to the dangers of joining and as a result the UK has fared far better in terms of growth than all other EU members.

I would like to say I'm still undecided about Brexit, but I'm not. I really have had it with all the BS and all the fools who cannot see what is in front of their noses.

[Worthy4England]

1) Any Trade Agreement where we have to put in place a bilateral that currently we piggy back on the EU's deal could be impacted.

2) Some outers have complained in the past about our contributions. See about 1'000 of Hoboh's posts for information...

3) Great, I shall follow Woodford religiously from now on...

4) I know that exporters hedge FX.My company does. That won't get them out of any customs duties. The two elements aren't related. At least you have a point of view that any additional customs tariffs should just be borne by the exporting companies. Bravo.

You may frame why we should support Brexit how you wish. I'll carry on looking at it the way I wish, thanks.

[Hoboh]

1) Any Trade Agreement where we have to put in place a bilateral that currently we piggy back on the EU's deal could be impacted.

2) Some outers have complained in the past about our contributions. See about 1'000 of Hoboh's posts for information...

3) Great, I shall follow Woodford religiously from now on...

4) I know that exporters hedge FX.My company does. That won't get them out of any customs duties. The two elements aren't related. At least you have a point of view that any additional customs tariffs should just be borne by the exporting companies. Bravo.

You may frame why we should support Brexit how you wish. I'll carry on looking at it the way I wish, thanks.

You know, reading your posts on the EU, it does come across that your main reason for staying is money related and all the rest of the political bull flies over your head.
Rubbing your hands together at the thought of 75 million, cheap to employ, Turks arriving?

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Hoboh- where do you stand on this?

Boris Johnson's staff told to toe the line on Brexit:
Email from London mayor’s chief of staff reportedly told the team to either back Johnson’s stance on the EU referendum or not openly contradict it.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/201 ... -on-brexit" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Worthy4England]

1) Any Trade Agreement where we have to put in place a bilateral that currently we piggy back on the EU's deal could be impacted.

2) Some outers have complained in the past about our contributions. See about 1'000 of Hoboh's posts for information...

3) Great, I shall follow Woodford religiously from now on...

4) I know that exporters hedge FX.My company does. That won't get them out of any customs duties. The two elements aren't related. At least you have a point of view that any additional customs tariffs should just be borne by the exporting companies. Bravo.

You may frame why we should support Brexit how you wish. I'll carry on looking at it the way I wish, thanks.

You know, reading your posts on the EU, it does come across that your main reason for staying is money related and all the rest of the political bull flies over your head.
Rubbing your hands together at the thought of 75 million, cheap to employ, Turks arriving?

Hobes, I've always said we need controlled immigration (rather than uncontrolled).But looking at immigration as a whole, rather than just an EU thing, there were still more folks emigrated to the UK from outside EU than inside it in 2014. We could set a stricter policy for non-EU immigration - ask yourself why we haven't done this? We are only subscribed to free movement of people for the EU area. So there's an area that we have control over - it's larger in volume than the number of EU migrants - yet nobody seem to mention it? Why is that? What will be the immigration policy post Brexit? No one's actually told us yet - we've been told what we could do - not what we're going to do.

Most of the rest of it, outside of migration, the UK's elected Government has signed up to - that doesn't mean you or I have individually signed up - our elected representatives have. We're bound by the results of an election even if we disagree with the party that's in control. There's little that's less democratic than a party having an overwhelming majority in parliament based on polling significantly less than half the available votes. Our parliament is equally as capable of passing stupid, unpopular legislation as the next. Again here, I assume this would involve "rolling back the EU legislation" - How are we going to change this? What are we going to do with it? "Anything we like" isn't an answer.

My main reason for staying isn't money. It's more about trading conditions. As it stands bedwetters' commentary relating to the CE report and others has some merit - at a macro-economic level the shift might not be monumental. At a sector level it could be significant (as evidenced by the report he's happy to quote as the bible). That report also acknowledges that much of the red tape may still need to be in place, the FS sector might lose it's passport etc. etc. all these elements are minimised by the report regarding their impact at a macro-economic level whilst highlighting the possibly's, maybe's and might be's at a sector level. Well yes, if my aunt had balls etc. Great for investment fund managers.

So my main beef has and shall remain that I want to know what the conditions will be outside for trade. I do also want to know what we're going to do about Immigration - set out a policy - tell folks what they're voting for.

I don't expect much of this to come out during the next few months. Rather, I expect a continuation of hyperbole, huff, bluster, accusation and name calling.

[thebish]

after exit - which of the outrageous and stifling EU laws and bits of red tape that ruin our lives will be repealed/cut? anyone?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

after exit - which of the outrageous and stifling EU laws and bits of red tape that ruin our lives will be repealed/cut? anyone?

Straight bananas will be repealed. All remaining straight bananas in the UK foothills of the EU banana mountain will be forcible bent into a representative banana shape. The disruination of that aspect of my life would, if we do leave, be enormous, because I have a morbid fear of artificially straight fruit which would naturally, in nature, be curved.

[Gary the Enfield]

after exit - which of the outrageous and stifling EU laws and bits of red tape that ruin our lives will be repealed/cut? anyone?

Straight bananas will be repealed. All remaining straight bananas in the UK foothills of the EU banana mountain will be forcible bent into a representative banana shape. The disruination of that aspect of my life would, if we do leave, be enormous, because I have a morbid fear of artificially straight fruit which would naturally, in nature, be curved.

Please tell me that was deliberate?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

after exit - which of the outrageous and stifling EU laws and bits of red tape that ruin our lives will be repealed/cut? anyone?

Straight bananas will be repealed. All remaining straight bananas in the UK foothills of the EU banana mountain will be forcible bent into a representative banana shape. The disruination of that aspect of my life would, if we do leave, be enormous, because I have a morbid fear of artificially straight fruit which would naturally, in nature, be curved.

Please tell me that was deliberate?

[bedwetter2]

1) Any Trade Agreement where we have to put in place a bilateral that currently we piggy back on the EU's deal could be impacted.
OK, and these are? I would hazard a guess that if the UK had to piggy-back on an EU's Trade Agreement it wouldn't amount to a hill of beans.

2) Some outers have complained in the past about our contributions. See about 1'000 of Hoboh's posts for information...
Really? Again, I smell BS.

3) Great, I shall follow Woodford religiously from now on...
Good. You know it makes sense.

4) I know that exporters hedge FX.My company does. That won't get them out of any customs duties. The two elements aren't related. At least you have a point of view that any additional customs tariffs should just be borne by the exporting companies. Bravo.
Tell me where I said the two are related. I pointed out that currency exchange rate fluctuations cause far more uncertainty than very minor tariff differences can ever do.

You may frame why we should support Brexit how you wish. I'll carry on looking at it the way I wish, thanks.

I urge you to just think a little more deeply about the lack of clarity and semblance of democratic management in the EU. Think of your children and their children and their children's children....you get the picture. You could have have won the first prize in life, but instead of wishing to remain a proud English breed you threw that away and instead invited slavs, arabs and indian subcontinent origin people to dilute your blood. Not to mention the French.

Now that is how you do hyperbole!