Middle East Crisis

[Hoboh]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/o ... -interview" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Well, if that's being nice to your allies, maybe the EU doesn't look that bad after all!
Mind you there are times Israel hardly helps its self, even a fool can see settlements are not helpful.

[Dujon]

Hmm. I agree, Hoboh, that Israel's manoeuvring at times baffles me. Then again I can understand a country (if you will accept that status) - with Lebanon to the north, Syria to the north-east, Jordan to the east and Egypt to the south-west - having a healthy dose of paranoia built in to its political and diplomatic psyche. Then again I feel that Palestine should also have its own state and boundaries. By the same token I surmise that the Palestinians are not helping their cause by lobbing ordnance into Israel and by-passing borders by the use of tunnels so as to create havoc among the Israeli population.

I do at times ponder on how I would feel should the United Nations organisation suddenly decide to create a new State in this country based on the religion of its intended occupants. To be honest I think that I would be outraged.

[LeverEnd]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/o ... -interview

Well, if that's being nice to your allies, maybe the EU doesn't look that bad after all!
Mind you there are times Israel hardly helps its self, even a fool can see settlements are not helpful.

A mate of mine worked med cruise ships for a while and docked there a number of times. He said the amount of construction going on, and materials going through the port, is massive. There is also a steady stream of E European Jews moving out there and they are expanding to accommodate them and undertaking huge infrastructure projects, none of which benefit the Palestinians. They are bound to keep on desperately lashing out and playing into Israeli hands, and the Hamas lot don't care how many of their own get bombed as it suits their twisted ideological bullshit. Only the Yanks can stop this expansion really, and if they don't things will flare up again and again. America's allies, including us, can put pressure on them to do this I suppose, but I can't see any end to it because of vested interests, especially if the Republicans get back in next time as they usually do.

[William the White]

israel has no interest in a peace settlement with Palestinians. it has no interest in conforming to united nations resolutions. It has no interest in conforming to International Law.

With USA as its ally it thinks it can get away with whatever it wants, and, for the time being, it can.

There is no greater instance of the tail wagging the dog in international relations.

[Montreal Wanderer]

israel has no interest in a peace settlement with Palestinians. it has no interest in conforming to united nations resolutions. It has no interest in conforming to International Law.

With USA as its ally it thinks it can get away with whatever it wants, and, for the time being, it can.

There is no greater instance of the tail wagging the dog in international relations.

Do you think Hamas is interested in a peace settlement with Israel, William? Does it conform to international law? The leadership of both sides has a major share of blame if you ask me.

[William the White]

israel has no interest in a peace settlement with Palestinians. it has no interest in conforming to united nations resolutions. It has no interest in conforming to International Law.

With USA as its ally it thinks it can get away with whatever it wants, and, for the time being, it can.

There is no greater instance of the tail wagging the dog in international relations.

Do you think Hamas is interested in a peace settlement with Israel, William? Does it conform to international law? The leadership of both sides has a major share of blame if you ask me.

Hamas offered a ceasefire on the basis of Israel lifting their blockade (a blockade is an act of war - rockets into Israel are an act of war). Israel continued its blockade. Hamas continued its rockets. Does that mean both are equally to blame? I can see the argument. but... Israel refuses under any circumstances, to talk to the 'terrorist' Hamas. So, it's very, very difficult for Hamas to negotiate. My judgement is that Israel doesn't want an agreement over Gaza. It doesn't want peace. It wants to continue its expansion. Hamas wants to find a way out of the terrible damage to Gaza that the blockade inflicts but there is no way forward - proven by Israeli refusal to negotiate at all with Hamas or to negotiate seriously with the PLO who have had a ceasefire for a long time. So Hamas does the only thing it thinks possible - try to make it necessary for Israel to shift.

So, no, I don't think the leadership of both are equally culpable. Israel bears the responsibility for its policy of aggression and expansion (condemned by the UN and illegal under international law). Hamas I think is despicable in political/ideological terms - I'm a socialist and a believer in human rights. they aren't either of these. But the people of Gaza are the victims here. If Israel were ever willing to negotiate seriously I would condemn Hamas if it refused. We have never been in that situation.

[a1]

but israel used be massive, they give that part of t'egypt back.

and i dont think declaring war on it ten minutes after setting it up helped any.

but whatevers .

but the tin rattling for the 'gazan/syrian kids' can do one.

[Montreal Wanderer]

israel has no interest in a peace settlement with Palestinians. it has no interest in conforming to united nations resolutions. It has no interest in conforming to International Law.

With USA as its ally it thinks it can get away with whatever it wants, and, for the time being, it can.

There is no greater instance of the tail wagging the dog in international relations.

Do you think Hamas is interested in a peace settlement with Israel, William? Does it conform to international law? The leadership of both sides has a major share of blame if you ask me.

Hamas offered a ceasefire on the basis of Israel lifting their blockade (a blockade is an act of war - rockets into Israel are an act of war). Israel continued its blockade. Hamas continued its rockets. Does that mean both are equally to blame? I can see the argument. but... Israel refuses under any circumstances, to talk to the 'terrorist' Hamas. So, it's very, very difficult for Hamas to negotiate. My judgement is that Israel doesn't want an agreement over Gaza. It doesn't want peace. It wants to continue its expansion. Hamas wants to find a way out of the terrible damage to Gaza that the blockade inflicts but there is no way forward - proven by Israeli refusal to negotiate at all with Hamas or to negotiate seriously with the PLO who have had a ceasefire for a long time. So Hamas does the only thing it thinks possible - try to make it necessary for Israel to shift.

So, no, I don't think the leadership of both are equally culpable. Israel bears the responsibility for its policy of aggression and expansion (condemned by the UN and illegal under international law). Hamas I think is despicable in political/ideological terms - I'm a socialist and a believer in human rights. they aren't either of these. But the people of Gaza are the victims here. If Israel were ever willing to negotiate seriously I would condemn Hamas if it refused. We have never been in that situation.

The Hamas Charter calls for the creation of an Islamic state in "Palestine" which includes all of Israel. Article 13 states "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors." At one point Hamas said it would accept a ten-year truce if Israel agreed to retreat to its 1967 borders. Impossible though this condition would be for Israel, Hamas has retreated even from this. The organization is committed to the destruction of the state of Israel - how can there be meaningful negotiations?

There is a terrible humanitarian crisis in Gaza (at least we agree there), but I think the blame must still be shared. Sure Israel has a blockade but Hamas doesn't try to bring in humanitarian supplies - it tries to bring in weapons. Hamas blocks any others, such as Fatah, from attempting peace talks with Israel. I don't think Hamas wants to talk peace with Israel and would sabotage any talks that did take place. I am equally sure Israel does not wish to talk with Hamas. What a mess and what a tragedy for the civilians in Gaza.

[Hoboh]

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/n ... ter-kassig" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

RIP

Failure to decapitate the head of these treacherous snakes in the next 12 months, then Armageddon awaits us all.

[Worthy4England]

Could you possibly remind us, which order the next 12 months' armageddon's are going tò happen in? I've forgotten which ones went first, from all the armageddon's you've predicted...

[Hoboh]

Could you possibly remind us, which order the next 12 months' armageddon's are going tò happen in? I've forgotten which ones went first, from all the armageddon's you've predicted...

Your supposed to be a clever man work it out for yourself, you only need tax half your grey matter. I see when even your Europhile pals are saying it isn't delivering you chose to keep your head down, keep sticking it in the sand, it'll be alright

[Worthy4England]

Could you possibly remind us, which order the next 12 months' armageddon's are going tò happen in? I've forgotten which ones went first, from all the armageddon's you've predicted...

Your supposed to be a clever man work it out for yourself, you only need tax half your grey matter. I see when even your Europhile pals are saying it isn't delivering you chose to keep your head down, keep sticking it in the sand, it'll be alright

Look even with my massive brain, I'm struggling to keep up with where your first armageddon is going to come from - I don't know whether to set up my air raid shelter to be East facing or more South East - any help you can give me would be most welcome.

There's something your cat hasn't been able to work out yet. My pals are not Europhiles. I am not a Europhile either, depending on how you want to define "Europhile". I am interested in how we conduct trade with other Countries, not just the ones in Europe. I do think that we have more bargaining power collectively rather than in isolation (I mean the scale of sanctions Cameron or any other PM could discuss with Putin, as he did last week would be fairly laughable in isolation). Nobody has been able to give me any sort of cost estimate of how much it will be to put in place new trading agreements, whether they've be as beneficial as the old, how much EU legislation we'll still have to follow and pay for, to trade with Countries inside the EU. etc

That's because they're full of piss and wind, and don't actually know.

Immigration will not go away with us out of Europe. Stupid legislation will still occur from elsewhere (mainland UK for one) - so it's a bit like Alex Salmond's "we're going to keep the pound" line of thinking. Stupid and unanswered.

Don't suppose you know do you? Feel free to phone a cat...

[Prufrock]

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... er-bristol" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Hoboh]

Look, on trade the acid test is,
Will the EU and in particular certain countries be prepared to for go or accept tariffs on goods they currently export, in surplus to the UK? What effect would this have on their job markets?
In an ideal world trade agreements, if fully implemented, are not the problem of the EU, it's the politics that are unpalatable.
There can be no doubt that some within the EU are hell bent on creating a federal united states of Europe and they are the problem, with the shift to QMV the supposed 'influence of the UK is dismissed by the day and I'm sorry but no way am I and a growing number of others being pushed into things by a mixture of ex-soviet, corrupt countries.
Thank God we stayed out of the Euro.

On the Middle East, a top Kurdish commander along with a lot of other commentators are talking of the real strength of ISIS. Estimated at one time by the CIA to number between 30-35,000 this is said to be actually 100,000 plus and growing as other groups are re-aligning with them, there is as they say no way with the smaller number they could be fighting on all the fronts they are as well as holding on to territory. Calls are going out to dissatisfied Saudi's to rebel and there are a large number of sympathisers in that country. If they got their hands on Saudi equipment, lord knows where they would go next. It is becoming clear that training to use this type of equipment is coming from former Syrian and Iraqi deserters so Saudi's would be no different.
You cannot reason nor negotiate with these people unfortunately the unpalatable fact that you would have to exterminate them in order for our way of live continue is hampered by too many well meaning folk, thus they can just keep on pushing until someone will eventually hit them with WMD's such as tactical nukes, then we are in a whole new ball game seeing Europe has enough under the surface sympathisers.

[Worthy4England]

You've given me some questions, I was rather hoping you had the answers? If you can't answer the questions, how are you coming to the conclusion that what you're proposing is any good for us?

Yourself and the out campaign will need to answer the questions you raise at some point (which is why I'm asking you) - so will the EU and certain (unspecified) countries forego tariffs etc.? What's the answer? I know what they do now, so that's not a question I need to answer...what effect will the revised landscape have on the jobs market? These are things we could do with knowing before jumping blind. I'm sure your cat will tell us shortly. As yet I've heard no analysis, no commentary, in fact bugger all from UKIP on such issues, other than very high level uncosted statements around what "might be the case on any given Wednesday when pigs fly past"...

There might need to be some trade-off between trade and unpalatable politics. As the document I referred you to pointed out, the Norweigians pay nearly as much to the EU per head as the UK - with zero influence over policy making and are still subject to the vast majority of EU rules governing trade. If that's where we end up, then we've lost what voice we had and are no better off...

On the Middle East, I'm sure that the ISIS force is growing, should we go level the place before we move onto removing the invading forces from the Ukraine, or just have different tactics for both? Putin is proving difficult to negotiate with as you've pointed out a number of times. This is why I need to know which way to reinforce the walls of my fallout shelter... You don't seem to be very consistent here on your foreign policy...

[Hoboh]

Any where East or South East Worthy

On the EU if the stupid farts would actually negotiate and I believe a leave mandate would put us in a strong position, we would find answers to all of the questions.
I could counter with the airy fairy pie in the sky, with nothing really to back it up the pro-Europe punters come up with, remember Clegg and his millions of UK jobs would go fiasco.
For me I believe the EU needs breaking up and starting from scratch as a trading block, not one that needs to build two parliaments just to appease the French nor one that has to expand Eastwards to please the NATO neo-cons.

[Worthy4England]

Any where East or South East Worthy

On the EU if the stupid farts would actually negotiate and I believe a leave mandate would put us in a strong position, we would find answers to all of the questions.
I could counter with the airy fairy pie in the sky, with nothing really to back it up the pro-Europe punters come up with, remember Clegg and his millions of UK jobs would go fiasco.
For me I believe the EU needs breaking up and starting from scratch as a trading block, not one that needs to build two parliaments just to appease the French nor one that has to expand Eastwards to please the NATO neo-cons.

The EU exists, it has a cost to businesses. The businesses know what those costs are. Clegg, Cameron, Farage, Milliband etc. will interpret that their own way to address their own voters. Some are pro, some are anti. They'll carry on spinning as they see fit. Clegg who you mentioned will spin one way, Farage will spin a different way. But before I'd vote to leave, I'd want to know the costs to businesses, in general, of leaving (not the benefits - benefits are very often not realized). Someone needs to calculate that, I suspect UKIP will get increasing questions regarding it as we move towards a referendum.

If someone produces some believable figures for how much it will cost to leave the EU - and it will be a cost to leave - even if it's a one-off, then we need to understand what that means for our businesses and the economy they work in. At the moment, it's a blind faith dialogue.

[Hoboh]

Any where East or South East Worthy

On the EU if the stupid farts would actually negotiate and I believe a leave mandate would put us in a strong position, we would find answers to all of the questions.
I could counter with the airy fairy pie in the sky, with nothing really to back it up the pro-Europe punters come up with, remember Clegg and his millions of UK jobs would go fiasco.
For me I believe the EU needs breaking up and starting from scratch as a trading block, not one that needs to build two parliaments just to appease the French nor one that has to expand Eastwards to please the NATO neo-cons.

The EU exists, it has a cost to businesses. The businesses know what those costs are. Clegg, Cameron, Farage, Milliband etc. will interpret that their own way to address their own voters. Some are pro, some are anti. They'll carry on spinning as they see fit. Clegg who you mentioned will spin one way, Farage will spin a different way. But before I'd vote to leave, I'd want to know the costs to businesses, in general, of leaving (not the benefits - benefits are very often not realized). Someone needs to calculate that, I suspect UKIP will get increasing questions regarding it as we move towards a referendum.

If someone produces some believable figures for how much it will cost to leave the EU - and it will be a cost to leave - even if it's a one-off, then we need to understand what that means for our businesses and the economy they work in. At the moment, it's a blind faith dialogue.

Oh I agree but the Pro's don't give them either so unless they do they should stop chucking bricks at the outers.
On what I have seen and read my opinion is it will be more or less status quo but we will retain control of our politics.

[Worthy4England]

Any where East or South East Worthy

On the EU if the stupid farts would actually negotiate and I believe a leave mandate would put us in a strong position, we would find answers to all of the questions.
I could counter with the airy fairy pie in the sky, with nothing really to back it up the pro-Europe punters come up with, remember Clegg and his millions of UK jobs would go fiasco.
For me I believe the EU needs breaking up and starting from scratch as a trading block, not one that needs to build two parliaments just to appease the French nor one that has to expand Eastwards to please the NATO neo-cons.

The EU exists, it has a cost to businesses. The businesses know what those costs are. Clegg, Cameron, Farage, Milliband etc. will interpret that their own way to address their own voters. Some are pro, some are anti. They'll carry on spinning as they see fit. Clegg who you mentioned will spin one way, Farage will spin a different way. But before I'd vote to leave, I'd want to know the costs to businesses, in general, of leaving (not the benefits - benefits are very often not realized). Someone needs to calculate that, I suspect UKIP will get increasing questions regarding it as we move towards a referendum.

If someone produces some believable figures for how much it will cost to leave the EU - and it will be a cost to leave - even if it's a one-off, then we need to understand what that means for our businesses and the economy they work in. At the moment, it's a blind faith dialogue.

Oh I agree but the Pro's don't give them either so unless they do they should stop chucking bricks at the outers.
On what I have seen and read my opinion is it will be more or less status quo but we will retain control of our politics.

Like the "outers" don't lob bricks.

I haven't seen or read anything about how much it will cost to put in place new trade agreements, whether they're likely to be on the same terms or we're likely to lose out, how much it'll cost us per capita to trade with Europe a la the oft cited Norway or Switzerland. etc. etc.

I'd be delighted if you could point me at where you've read anything around it. I'd be really interested to read it too.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I've promised entire disparate constituencies that I'd stay out of this shit, but God's provocation keeps leading me into temptation - the non-existent nice person eh? Just to say RIP Abdul-Rahman, or is that I'm hoping you're flitting about as a green bird mate?
I'm a bit confused... actually I'm not, your pathetic belief that changed your allegience from one made up diety called Jehovah to another called Allah would save your life is one of the most pathetic sick inducing gestures I've yet to come across in this entire pathetic display of why mankind hasn't left the kindergarten.
Just fecking grow up. God does Not exist and stop slaughtering people you Morons.