Here we go again

[communistworkethic]

Ah yes Jesus son of God. So we've done the nonsense pathrnogensis bit already. So lets look at the messianic prophecy, which comes from the Old Testemant - Micah.

Now lets look at what he said - he said the messiah would be a descendent of david and be born in Bethlehem. Now Mathew & Luke are teh only two Gospelists in the Bible to bother with this issue and both deal with it competely differently. Now according to one its through 42 generations that you can trace teh line and according to the other it's 23, and there's almost no overlap in the people in those lines. Then let's see, if he's decendend through david on Josephs's side, then that means Joseph is his biological father and therefore He's not the result of a Virgin birth and therefore surely not the son of God???? Then historically, the issue of why they travelled there - required to go to the city of their forbearers for a census - Hmmm go to a city where a decendent 1000 years ago lived. Firstly why would anybody ask that??? Second, have you ever tried tracing your family tree, you're lucky if you can get aback 200 years but in ancient middle east they seem to be able to do it a 1000 years! Yeah ok. Then the census itself, was carried out until 6 years after the birth of christ, it's a historical and provable fact.


And your point about faith I picked up loosely with the russell's teapot anology. You are prepared to follow the doctrines of 4 gospels, 4 chosed arbitrarily by people several hundered years after the events, written years after the events and which contradict each other. You follow these books which have as much providence as the say The Legend of King Arthur. What amazes me is the blind faith in what you are told by these books, books that are so fundamentally flawed on so many levels but you choose not to question the lack or logic, reality or sense for this book but you would with any other, and it's all purely on the basis that a supreme supernatural being who, depending on which testament you take, is a spiteful, sexist, vengeful, interfering god or quiet malevolent and wity a laissez faire attuitude, may or may not let you stay with him after you're dead?

You would dispute unicorns, leprechauns, the loch ness monster and who knows what else but you can believe in another supernatural creature.

If there is a God, firstly how can he be omniscient and omnipotent? They are contradcitory. Second, who created him? If he just exists, why couldn't the universe just exist with no need for it to have a creator?

[thebish]

Go back as far as you like and show me all the good of the old so-called deities who demanded human sacrifice and stoned each other to death etc etc.

Your 'god' also condones ethnic cleansing, rape, incest, and a whole host of other atrocities. Or have you conveniently dismissed these parts of the scriptures?

You're ONE small step away from reality! You've already discounted all the other "gods", why not go one further and competely free your mind of these nonsense myths?

(referring to both the posts quoted above)

Ok, I've enjoyed this so far - but the warning lights are starting to flash now - I think I might go and think about the Sheff.U game.. the bone's gone a bit sour...

[David Lee's Hair]

Ah yes Jesus son of God. So we've done the nonsense pathrnogensis bit already. So lets look at the messianic prophecy, which comes from the Old Testemant - Micah.

Now lets look at what he said - he said the messiah would be a descendent of david and be born in Bethlehem. Now Mathew & Luke are teh only two Gospelists in the Bible to bother with this issue and both deal with it competely differently. Now according to one its through 42 generations that you can trace teh line and according to the other it's 23, and there's almost no overlap in the people in those lines. Then let's see, if he's decendend through david on Josephs's side, then that means Joseph is his biological father and therefore He's not the result of a Virgin birth and therefore surely not the son of God???? Then historically, the issue of why they travelled there - required to go to the city of their forbearers for a census - Hmmm go to a city where a decendent 1000 years ago lived. Firstly why would anybody ask that??? Second, have you ever tried tracing your family tree, you're lucky if you can get aback 200 years but in ancient middle east they seem to be able to do it a 1000 years! Yeah ok. Then the census itself, was carried out until 6 years after the birth of christ, it's a historical and provable fact.


And your point about faith I picked up loosely with the russell's teapot anology. You are prepared to follow the doctrines of 4 gospels, 4 chosed arbitrarily by people several hundered years after the events, written years after the events and which contradict each other. You follow these books which have as much providence as the say The Legend of King Arthur. What amazes me is the blind faith in what you are told by these books, books that are so fundamentally flawed on so many levels but you choose not to question the lack or logic, reality or sense for this book but you would with any other, and it's all purely on the basis that a supreme supernatural being who, depending on which testament you take, is a spiteful, sexist, vengeful, interfering god or quiet malevolent and wity a laissez faire attuitude, may or may not let you stay with him after you're dead?

You would dispute unicorns, leprechauns, the loch ness monster and who knows what else but you can believe in another supernatural creature.

If there is a God, firstly how can he be omniscient and omnipotent? They are contradcitory. Second, who created him? If he just exists, why couldn't the universe just exist with no need for it to have a creator?

I like you commie, don't believe, but is it that bad to believe?

Religion does give alot of people hope and is that a bad thing?

[Lennon]

Ah yes Jesus son of God. So we've done the nonsense pathrnogensis bit already. So lets look at the messianic prophecy, which comes from the Old Testemant - Micah.

Now lets look at what he said - he said the messiah would be a descendent of david and be born in Bethlehem. Now Mathew & Luke are teh only two Gospelists in the Bible to bother with this issue and both deal with it competely differently. Now according to one its through 42 generations that you can trace teh line and according to the other it's 23, and there's almost no overlap in the people in those lines. Then let's see, if he's decendend through david on Josephs's side, then that means Joseph is his biological father and therefore He's not the result of a Virgin birth and therefore surely not the son of God???? Then historically, the issue of why they travelled there - required to go to the city of their forbearers for a census - Hmmm go to a city where a decendent 1000 years ago lived. Firstly why would anybody ask that??? Second, have you ever tried tracing your family tree, you're lucky if you can get aback 200 years but in ancient middle east they seem to be able to do it a 1000 years! Yeah ok. Then the census itself, was carried out until 6 years after the birth of christ, it's a historical and provable fact.

Thief! Excellent book though, The God Delusion!

[Bruce Rioja]

Then the census itself, was carried out until 6 years after the birth of christ, it's a historical and provable fact.

Maybe it got held up in the Christmas post?

[Gertie]

What's wrong with a bit of blind faith and hope?

One day I'll marry Mark Owen

Freddie Ljungberg really fancies girls

Bolton can players can pass a ball amongst themselves

Men can do ironing

Waxing doesn't hurt really

[communistworkethic]

What's wrong with a bit of blind faith and hope?

One day I'll marry Mark Owen

Freddie Ljungberg really fancies girls

Bolton can players can pass a ball amongst themselves

Men can do ironing

Waxing doesn't hurt really

point proved

[communistworkethic]

Ah yes Jesus son of God. So we've done the nonsense pathrnogensis bit already. So lets look at the messianic prophecy, which comes from the Old Testemant - Micah.

Now lets look at what he said - he said the messiah would be a descendent of david and be born in Bethlehem. Now Mathew & Luke are teh only two Gospelists in the Bible to bother with this issue and both deal with it competely differently. Now according to one its through 42 generations that you can trace teh line and according to the other it's 23, and there's almost no overlap in the people in those lines. Then let's see, if he's decendend through david on Josephs's side, then that means Joseph is his biological father and therefore He's not the result of a Virgin birth and therefore surely not the son of God???? Then historically, the issue of why they travelled there - required to go to the city of their forbearers for a census - Hmmm go to a city where a decendent 1000 years ago lived. Firstly why would anybody ask that??? Second, have you ever tried tracing your family tree, you're lucky if you can get aback 200 years but in ancient middle east they seem to be able to do it a 1000 years! Yeah ok. Then the census itself, was carried out until 6 years after the birth of christ, it's a historical and provable fact.


And your point about faith I picked up loosely with the russell's teapot anology. You are prepared to follow the doctrines of 4 gospels, 4 chosed arbitrarily by people several hundered years after the events, written years after the events and which contradict each other. You follow these books which have as much providence as the say The Legend of King Arthur. What amazes me is the blind faith in what you are told by these books, books that are so fundamentally flawed on so many levels but you choose not to question the lack or logic, reality or sense for this book but you would with any other, and it's all purely on the basis that a supreme supernatural being who, depending on which testament you take, is a spiteful, sexist, vengeful, interfering god or quiet malevolent and wity a laissez faire attuitude, may or may not let you stay with him after you're dead?

You would dispute unicorns, leprechauns, the loch ness monster and who knows what else but you can believe in another supernatural creature.

If there is a God, firstly how can he be omniscient and omnipotent? They are contradcitory. Second, who created him? If he just exists, why couldn't the universe just exist with no need for it to have a creator?

I like you commie, don't believe, but is it that bad to believe?

Religion does give alot of people hope and is that a bad thing?

I'm not saying belief itself is wrong but that it doesn't make sense. My question is "why believe in this but not in something equally as implausible or even things more plausible?"

But it gives people hope of what? That there is something beyond death? Do you need religion to do this? Why should you be that bothered that there is nothing beyond death? That the world could be a better place? We could make it a better place if people stopped saying "my imaginary friend is better than you imaginary friend" (kudos to whoever it was summarised religion thusly on this board".


and yes Lennon, it's a book that everyone should read. Along with his others too.

[thebish]

Then the census itself, was carried out until 6 years after the birth of christ, it's a historical and provable fact.

I wouldn't dispute it as "fact" (such a fact wouldn't really interest me that much anyway) - but how is such a fact "provable"?? just interested... how would you go about proving that a census happened 2000 years ago? I suspect you'd have a job on your hands..

[TANGODANCER]

Go back as far as you like and show me all the good of the old so-called deities who demanded human sacrifice and stoned each other to death etc etc.

Your 'god' also condones ethnic cleansing, rape, incest, and a whole host of other atrocities. Or have you conveniently dismissed these parts of the scriptures?

You're ONE small step away from reality! You've already discounted all the other "gods", why not go one further and competely free your mind of these nonsense myths?

Okay, since you know these things so well, stick them up and lets take a look hey? Let's see how much the word of God has actually been shuffled around to suit man. I'm always willing to see any relevant points.

[communistworkethic]

Then the census itself, was carried out until 6 years after the birth of christ, it's a historical and provable fact.

I wouldn't dispute it as "fact" (such a fact wouldn't really interest me that much anyway) - but how is such a fact "provable"?? just interested... how would you go about proving that a census happened 2000 years ago? I suspect you'd have a job on your hands..

because it's documented?

[thebish]

I really wish you'd reconsider that request...

it'll all end in tears - nobody's mind will be changed - it won't be edifying - and there's always the danger that I'll allow myself to get sucked back in... (and nobody wants that..)

can we bury the bone and find something friskier to do?

[David Lee's Hair]

But it gives people hope of what? That there is something beyond death? Do you need religion to do this? Why should you be that bothered that there is nothing beyond death? That the world could be a better place? We could make it a better place if people stopped saying "my imaginary friend is better than you imaginary friend" (kudos to whoever it was summarised religion thusly on this board".

Yes that there's something beyond death, its a pretty important thing for some people (I'm not one of them I personally believe that you just rot away but for some thats a pretty important thing). To just face the fact you die and thats it is probably a pretty worrying thing if you are scared of nothing. I don't know if that makes sense, but I think personally that perhaps an individual needs religion if they are not willing that things cannot be explained, hence scared of nothing (maybe better to say not knowing).

Yes that the world could be a better place, I don't think that its coincidental that alot of the more devout people of the world live in poorer countries (South and Central America, Africa spring to mid here) where you are probably hoping that theworld is a better place.

[communistworkethic]

Go back as far as you like and show me all the good of the old so-called deities who demanded human sacrifice and stoned each other to death etc etc.

Your 'god' also condones ethnic cleansing, rape, incest, and a whole host of other atrocities. Or have you conveniently dismissed these parts of the scriptures?

You're ONE small step away from reality! You've already discounted all the other "gods", why not go one further and competely free your mind of these nonsense myths?

Okay, since you know these things so well, stick them up and lets take a look hey? Let's see how much the word of God has actually been shuffled around to suit man. I'm always willing to see any relevant points.

firstly you give us the word of God and not some scriptures written by someone else. Where do the "words of God" actually exist? I don't want anything written my Mathew Mark, Luke John, Paul, George, Ringo, Mary Magdalene, Mungo or Midge, just words that God wrote or tapes of him saying them.

Until you can provide that, I would say EVERYTHING in the Bible has been shuffled around to suit man as it was written by them, edited by them and has been rewritten several times since, not to mentiion the lost in transalation issues. I've already given you the examples staright from your Bible just on Christ's birth.

[thebish]

Then the census itself, was carried out until 6 years after the birth of christ, it's a historical and provable fact.

I wouldn't dispute it as "fact" (such a fact wouldn't really interest me that much anyway) - but how is such a fact "provable"?? just interested... how would you go about proving that a census happened 2000 years ago? I suspect you'd have a job on your hands..

because it's documented?

lol!!

by Josephus??? (the not-so-independent Roman historian?) lots of stuff is documented (in the gospels for instance) - but last time I looked that didn't always mean "proved" - anyway - you said it was "historical" (which I took to mean "documented" and provable (as if that were something more...)

I'm off to find some stuff that's been documented in the Daily Mail...

[communistworkethic]

we know when the people lived, whe know when the census was carried out, we know under whose orders, it's all document by the officials of the time and has been research and corroborated. Unlike any of the Gospels.

[TANGODANCER]

firstly you give us the word of God and not some scriptures written by someone else. Where do the "words of God" actually exist? I don't want anything written my Mathew Mark, Luke John, Paul, George, Ringo, Mary Magdalene, Mungo or Midge, just words that God wrote or tapes of him saying them.

Until you can provide that, I would say EVERYTHING in the Bible has been shuffled around to suit man as it was written by them, edited by them and has been rewritten several times since, not to mentiion the lost in transalation issues. I've already given you the examples staright from your Bible just on Christ's birth.

Huh, that's just like saying " I don't want to hear what some Roman Emperor did from some scribe, I want words the Emperor wrote or tapes of him telling me". It's like saying I don't believe the Bible, which you are doing, and which I do. I want to have a look at all this incest and rape stuff without having to pour through the testaments. Stick it up there, although we are so far apart in our views I can't see it doing much good. Only real way to know is to die, which we'll all do someday.

Meantime, I'll keep believing and you'll keep doubting. Who wins in the long run is the answer and neither of us have it.

[thebish]

we know when the people lived, whe know when the census was carried out, we know under whose orders, it's all document by the officials of the time and has been research and corroborated. Unlike any of the Gospels.

I'm not sure we're as certain of these things as you think we are... sources??? who were these "officials of the time" and where are the documents of which you speak...? you're sounding strangely vague...

and where are the "corroborating" documents...?

sounds a bit like blind faith in Josephus to me...

(don't get me wrong - I don't think there was a census on 25th December, 1AD - or (0AD!) - but I have spent a considerable amount of time studying this - and the cast iron sources and proof that you seem to have have never been apparent to me...

no single documented source can be taken as proof, surely? (or maybe you had a slack history professor, eh? )

I, for one, think that we can know next to nothing about Jesus' birth or the circumstances surrounding it - trying to prove or disprove a detail about largely made up infancy narratives is a waste of time..

next you'll be offering us "scientific proof" about unusual stars in the sky - that's where this argument usually goes next...

[communistworkethic]

it's not at all, God is not a man, you're asking how his words have been altered to suit man. All we have are the words of men - the Gospelists included in the Bible, not even all the Gospelists. Given that they contradict they cannot be the true word of God, so we need to know what it is first before we can show the differences and how they've been changed.

[Lennon]

Okay, since you know these things so well, stick them up and lets take a look hey? Let's see how much the word of God has actually been shuffled around to suit man. I'm always willing to see any relevant points.

Are you saying you're a Christian, yet you haven't even read the bible?

Ethnic Cleansing

Exodus:
12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

Incest:

Genesis:
19:31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
19:32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.

Rape

Numbers:
31:15 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
31:16 Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
31:18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

It took about 5 minutes to find those examples. And a waste of 5 minutes it was.