The Politics Thread

[Worthy4England]

^^ Utter drivel. Why don't they all go and demonstrate in Tiananmen Square - ever the voice of reason - are you suggesting they all rocked up in Washington recently? No, they didn't.

People are entitled to protest against what the feck they want to. You're entitled to call 'em names. Nothing to see here.

[bedwetter2]

^^ Utter drivel. Why don't they all go and demonstrate in Tiananmen Square - ever the voice of reason - are you suggesting they all rocked up in Washington recently? No, they didn't.

People are entitled to protest against what the feck they want to. You're entitled to call 'em names. Nothing to see here.

You are suggesting the politically motivated left do not choose their campaigns to generally target western leaders rather than eastern authoritarian ones? Did I once say that people are not entitled to protest? No, I would defend everyone's right to protest or campaign against injustice. It's just that the semi-professional agitators of the left are myopic at best or ignore inconvenient truths as it doesn't fit with their world view. Apparently, and according to the Washington demonstrators own bs 1 million of them turned out; quite a lot rocking up...and for what, eh? Not getting their own way when Clinton was bounced?

It's you who is talking utter drivel.

[BWFC_Insane]

I was surprised yesterday, that during the latest talks around the NHS falling down around our ears (or being allowed to) there was talk that so called health tourists would now be charged for non urgent treatment. My first reaction was "You mean they don't already?" - When the care for many elderly in this country is nothing short of a national scandal - What took them?

The estimate is this costs the NHS somewhere between £100M and £280M.

The cost of social care, just on the social care non health side is upwards of £17billion annually.

So how much would it cost to tackle health tourism? You'd need whole systems in place to do it. And you'll never save the full amount anyway. Imagine someone from Australia rocking up to a hospital with a badly infected ingrowing toenail. They'd be a health tourist. Is that emergency or not? Who makes that call. Then who works out they are a "health tourist", who determines what they pay? What is the mechanism for payment? Also in such a system does that mean I have to take my passport to every outpatient appt and someone has to scan it as a record?

I think it'd be far more effective to discuss why we aren't as a country prepared to fund the NHS and social care properly. Why are we such a selfish society? That would be a better place to start than thinking that introducing more and more systems that all cost a significant amount in staff time, resources and salaries to solve a problem that is not even going to trouble the tip of a very large iceberg. Mind its popular cos nobody likes foreigners no more.

The Sunday Times were quoting the cost to the NHS as more like £600m per annum. Either way, it is part of the financial pressure on the healthcare system and, as such, should be eliminated.

As to the cost of tackling health tourism, everyone from anywhere presenting for treatment of any kind is allocated an NHS hospital number because a record must be kept of treatments provided. This applies to all irrespective of where they come from. A marker on the patient record to denote non-citizen of the UK would easily track that treatment. It has also been suggested that compulsory health insurance should be a pre-requisite for any visitor to the UK. As is the case in continental european countries, treatment could only proceed when evidence of such insurance or the production of a credit/debit card was given. Simples.

One of the few examples of where some EU countries have got it right.

The times have included emergency treatment in that figure most likely.

What you suggest is not as straightforward as you are proposing. People don't walk round with their NHS number. Think of all the hospitals, walk in centres, GP surgeries, dentists, all the places people can receive NHS or NHS subsidised treatment. There isn't a unified system, so it isn't like every health provider can log in and check who the person that has walked in is. If you rock up at a walk in centre and need antibiotics, you may see a prescribing nurse. That walk in centre may have you on record if they've seen you before. Or they may not. They might have your health records accessible via a central system, but people can opt out of that. So what level of system do you need in place for health care providers to be able to know who they should and shouldn't charge.

You're talking significant investment. And that is before we get onto the issue of how payments would be taken and processed. That's a whole other ballgame.

[Lord Kangana]

Good lord, I think I just read "well they started it" strung out into several paragraphs.

When the Chinese had a state visit here there were mass protests. Here. Because thats where they were visiting. Our proud, independent, sovereign nation.

The same will probably happen for Trump.

[Hoboh]

I was surprised yesterday, that during the latest talks around the NHS falling down around our ears (or being allowed to) there was talk that so called health tourists would now be charged for non urgent treatment. My first reaction was "You mean they don't already?" - When the care for many elderly in this country is nothing short of a national scandal - What took them?

The estimate is this costs the NHS somewhere between £100M and £280M.

The cost of social care, just on the social care non health side is upwards of £17billion annually.

So how much would it cost to tackle health tourism? You'd need whole systems in place to do it. And you'll never save the full amount anyway. Imagine someone from Australia rocking up to a hospital with a badly infected ingrowing toenail. They'd be a health tourist. Is that emergency or not? Who makes that call. Then who works out they are a "health tourist", who determines what they pay? What is the mechanism for payment? Also in such a system does that mean I have to take my passport to every outpatient appt and someone has to scan it as a record?

I think it'd be far more effective to discuss why we aren't as a country prepared to fund the NHS and social care properly. Why are we such a selfish society? That would be a better place to start than thinking that introducing more and more systems that all cost a significant amount in staff time, resources and salaries to solve a problem that is not even going to trouble the tip of a very large iceberg. Mind its popular cos nobody likes foreigners no more.

The Sunday Times were quoting the cost to the NHS as more like £600m per annum. Either way, it is part of the financial pressure on the healthcare system and, as such, should be eliminated.

As to the cost of tackling health tourism, everyone from anywhere presenting for treatment of any kind is allocated an NHS hospital number because a record must be kept of treatments provided. This applies to all irrespective of where they come from. A marker on the patient record to denote non-citizen of the UK would easily track that treatment. It has also been suggested that compulsory health insurance should be a pre-requisite for any visitor to the UK. As is the case in continental european countries, treatment could only proceed when evidence of such insurance or the production of a credit/debit card was given. Simples.

One of the few examples of where some EU countries have got it right.

The times have included emergency treatment in that figure most likely.

What you suggest is not as straightforward as you are proposing. People don't walk round with their NHS number. Think of all the hospitals, walk in centres, GP surgeries, dentists, all the places people can receive NHS or NHS subsidised treatment. There isn't a unified system, so it isn't like every health provider can log in and check who the person that has walked in is. If you rock up at a walk in centre and need antibiotics, you may see a prescribing nurse. That walk in centre may have you on record if they've seen you before. Or they may not. They might have your health records accessible via a central system, but people can opt out of that. So what level of system do you need in place for health care providers to be able to know who they should and shouldn't charge.

You're talking significant investment. And that is before we get onto the issue of how payments would be taken and processed. That's a whole other ballgame.

Don't talk bullshit, you are making excuse after excuse, 'it's too hard to tell if someone qualifies or not and not everyone carries id', if you look young and try to buy booze in a supermarket they ask for id, no id no booze.
It has been stated over and over again that emergency treatment there would not be a problem, so where is the problem going for routine treatment and carrying id?
What the fcuk is wrong with personal responsibilities in your book? You own nursery schools?
No one should be allowed entry into the UK without valid medical insurance and airlines should be fined for carrying clearly well due expectant mothers.
All this goes to show we should just tighten up control over who floats into our country despite what dickheads who are happy to right off £300 million or whatever because it's only small change and doesn't matter.

As for Corbyn?

Well if he occupies the liberal leftie chattering classes and stops them interfering in other matters,

long may he reign!

[Hoboh]

Good lord, I think I just read "well they started it" strung out into several paragraphs.

When the Chinese had a state visit here there were mass protests. Here. Because thats where they were visiting. Our proud, independent, sovereign nation.

The same will probably happen for Trump.

What mass protests?

I seem to remember a couple of thousand turning out, hardly 'mass' and most of them were Chinese exiles or free Tibet protesters not your usual black clad ninja brick chucking lefties putting through the windows of MacDonald's.

[Lord Kangana]

Strangely at odds with how the Daily Mail reported it for a change.

[BWFC_Insane]

Don't talk bullshit, you are making excuse after excuse, 'it's too hard to tell if someone qualifies or not and not everyone carries id', if you look young and try to buy booze in a supermarket they ask for id, no id no booze.
It has been stated over and over again that emergency treatment there would not be a problem, so where is the problem going for routine treatment and carrying id?
What the fcuk is wrong with personal responsibilities in your book? You own nursery schools?
No one should be allowed entry into the UK without valid medical insurance and airlines should be fined for carrying clearly well due expectant mothers.
All this goes to show we should just tighten up control over who floats into our country despite what dickheads who are happy to right off £300 million or whatever because it's only small change and doesn't matter.

As for Corbyn?

Well if he occupies the liberal leftie chattering classes and stops them interfering in other matters,

long may he reign!

No, I've explained the actual situation. To save a drop in the ocean, you have to invest a significant amount first up front, then on an ongoing basis.

The gain isn't actually going to make a difference. If we sort out the bigger issue of the health and social care funding crisis first, then by all means consider tackling health tourism. But don't divert from the major issue. We've spent 20 years doing that and it has got us nowhere.

And by the way, I'm not interested in your "alternative facts/common sense" view on this. I spent 3 years of my life looking into payment and insurance solutions in the NHS for this exact sort of thing. Try and construct a business case for it, and the numbers do not stack up.

[Hoboh]

Don't talk bullshit, you are making excuse after excuse, 'it's too hard to tell if someone qualifies or not and not everyone carries id', if you look young and try to buy booze in a supermarket they ask for id, no id no booze.
It has been stated over and over again that emergency treatment there would not be a problem, so where is the problem going for routine treatment and carrying id?
What the fcuk is wrong with personal responsibilities in your book? You own nursery schools?
No one should be allowed entry into the UK without valid medical insurance and airlines should be fined for carrying clearly well due expectant mothers.
All this goes to show we should just tighten up control over who floats into our country despite what dickheads who are happy to right off £300 million or whatever because it's only small change and doesn't matter.

As for Corbyn?

Well if he occupies the liberal leftie chattering classes and stops them interfering in other matters,

long may he reign!

No, I've explained the actual situation. To save a drop in the ocean, you have to invest a significant amount first up front, then on an ongoing basis.

The gain isn't actually going to make a difference. If we sort out the bigger issue of the health and social care funding crisis first, then by all means consider tackling health tourism. But don't divert from the major issue. We've spent 20 years doing that and it has got us nowhere.

And by the way, I'm not interested in your "alternative facts/common sense" view on this. I spent 3 years of my life looking into payment and insurance solutions in the NHS for this exact sort of thing. Try and construct a business case for it, and the numbers do not stack up.

I never expected you to, it don't 'fit' your political views nor narrative.

[Hoboh]

Strangely at odds with how the Daily Mail reported it for a change.

Why would an ardent Guardian reader be remotely interested in the view of the mail?

[Worthy4England]

Good lord, I think I just read "well they started it" strung out into several paragraphs.

When the Chinese had a state visit here there were mass protests. Here. Because thats where they were visiting. Our proud, independent, sovereign nation.

The same will probably happen for Trump.

What mass protests?

I seem to remember a couple of thousand turning out, hardly 'mass' and most of them were Chinese exiles or free Tibet protesters not your usual black clad ninja brick chucking lefties putting through the windows of MacDonald's.

I thought they were all tree-hugging snowflakes? Make yer fcuking mind up.

[Hoboh]

Good lord, I think I just read "well they started it" strung out into several paragraphs.

When the Chinese had a state visit here there were mass protests. Here. Because thats where they were visiting. Our proud, independent, sovereign nation.

The same will probably happen for Trump.

What mass protests?

I seem to remember a couple of thousand turning out, hardly 'mass' and most of them were Chinese exiles or free Tibet protesters not your usual black clad ninja brick chucking lefties putting through the windows of MacDonald's.

I thought they were all tree-hugging snowflakes? Make yer fcuking mind up.

Just a different branch of the same tree mate

[Worthy4England]

Good lord, I think I just read "well they started it" strung out into several paragraphs.

When the Chinese had a state visit here there were mass protests. Here. Because thats where they were visiting. Our proud, independent, sovereign nation.

The same will probably happen for Trump.

What mass protests?

I seem to remember a couple of thousand turning out, hardly 'mass' and most of them were Chinese exiles or free Tibet protesters not your usual black clad ninja brick chucking lefties putting through the windows of MacDonald's.

I thought they were all tree-hugging snowflakes? Make yer fcuking mind up.

Just a different branch of the same tree mate

Ahhh - the old "anyone-who's-not-Hoboh-tree"

[Worthy4England]

^^ Utter drivel. Why don't they all go and demonstrate in Tiananmen Square - ever the voice of reason - are you suggesting they all rocked up in Washington recently? No, they didn't.

People are entitled to protest against what the feck they want to. You're entitled to call 'em names. Nothing to see here.

You are suggesting the politically motivated left do not choose their campaigns to generally target western leaders rather than eastern authoritarian ones? Did I once say that people are not entitled to protest? No, I would defend everyone's right to protest or campaign against injustice. It's just that the semi-professional agitators of the left are myopic at best or ignore inconvenient truths as it doesn't fit with their world view. Apparently, and according to the Washington demonstrators own bs 1 million of them turned out; quite a lot rocking up...and for what, eh? Not getting their own way when Clinton was bounced?

It's you who is talking utter drivel.

Of course the right (and businesses) often don't bother with semi-professional agitators, they generally use fully professional lobbyists behind the scenes where they're much less visible to the naked eye.

If you support and defend everyone's right to protest, why do you have issue with 100,00 or 1,000,000 turning out in Washington (or London)? Sure in the US, they lost an election, but they won the national vote - has the protest got to fit in with your myopic view of right and wrong, in some sort of elitist sense?

I don't recall a shit load of protests aimed at Western heads of state addressing parliament - can you help me out on any?

[BWFC_Insane]

^^ Utter drivel. Why don't they all go and demonstrate in Tiananmen Square - ever the voice of reason - are you suggesting they all rocked up in Washington recently? No, they didn't.

People are entitled to protest against what the feck they want to. You're entitled to call 'em names. Nothing to see here.

You are suggesting the politically motivated left do not choose their campaigns to generally target western leaders rather than eastern authoritarian ones? Did I once say that people are not entitled to protest? No, I would defend everyone's right to protest or campaign against injustice. It's just that the semi-professional agitators of the left are myopic at best or ignore inconvenient truths as it doesn't fit with their world view. Apparently, and according to the Washington demonstrators own bs 1 million of them turned out; quite a lot rocking up...and for what, eh? Not getting their own way when Clinton was bounced?

It's you who is talking utter drivel.

Of course the right (and businesses) often don't bother with semi-professional agitators, they generally use fully professional lobbyists behind the scenes where they're much less visible to the naked eye.

If you support and defend everyone's right to protest, why do you have issue with 100,00 or 1,000,000 turning out in Washington (or London)? Sure in the US, they lost an election, but they won the national vote - has the protest got to fit in with your myopic view of right and wrong, in some sort of elitist sense?

I don't recall a shit load of protests aimed at Western heads of state addressing parliament - can you help me out on any?

Or just go for straight up lynchings/shootings/violence.

I find it laughable that people who bang on about immigration and choose isolated news stories to attach to their campaign, accuse anyone of being myopic.

[bedwetter2]

Don't talk bullshit, you are making excuse after excuse, 'it's too hard to tell if someone qualifies or not and not everyone carries id', if you look young and try to buy booze in a supermarket they ask for id, no id no booze.
It has been stated over and over again that emergency treatment there would not be a problem, so where is the problem going for routine treatment and carrying id?
What the fcuk is wrong with personal responsibilities in your book? You own nursery schools?
No one should be allowed entry into the UK without valid medical insurance and airlines should be fined for carrying clearly well due expectant mothers.
All this goes to show we should just tighten up control over who floats into our country despite what dickheads who are happy to right off £300 million or whatever because it's only small change and doesn't matter.

As for Corbyn?

Well if he occupies the liberal leftie chattering classes and stops them interfering in other matters,

long may he reign!

No, I've explained the actual situation. To save a drop in the ocean, you have to invest a significant amount first up front, then on an ongoing basis.

The gain isn't actually going to make a difference. If we sort out the bigger issue of the health and social care funding crisis first, then by all means consider tackling health tourism. But don't divert from the major issue. We've spent 20 years doing that and it has got us nowhere.

And by the way, I'm not interested in your "alternative facts/common sense" view on this. I spent 3 years of my life looking into payment and insurance solutions in the NHS for this exact sort of thing. Try and construct a business case for it, and the numbers do not stack up.

I was talking about collecting information in order to bill foreigners, not developing payment and insurance solutions for foreigners. God knows what you are talking about.

Ill/injured foreign person turns up at GP practice or maybe walk-in centre or maybe A&E department. Receptionist asks for name, address, date of birth and method of payment to be tendered. If it's basic treatment by a GP or practice nurse, a streamline card terminal will take payment or insurance cover details taken for invoicing. If the patient needs in-patient treatment, the department administrator creates a unique job number on the software and again takes payment details, johnny foreigner is repaired (hopefully), the computer job record updated with details of treatment and final accumulated cost and sent on his way rejoicing having signed a billing consent form for the insurer or paid by card. Billing all done simply from a menu of treatments which have a fixed cost per annum.

You don't have to spend a significant amount up front. The computers already exist, multiple software licences are very cheap per user and streamline terminals are virtually free from the card companies. There are many low-cost off the shelf pieces of software which accumulate costs against a project or job and then bill the client, or in this case the patient or their insurer. Not beyond the capacity of even the most blustering unionised half-wit to operate. And before you say many more people will need to be employed to operate such a system, I will call bullsh*t. Having seen the slow speed that most administrators in hospitals carry around bloody great sheaves of paper in files, existing employees could more than cope.

[boltonboris]

Never needed medical treatment abroad, but what happens in other countries if you don't have insurance?

[Worthy4England]

Don't talk bullshit, you are making excuse after excuse, 'it's too hard to tell if someone qualifies or not and not everyone carries id', if you look young and try to buy booze in a supermarket they ask for id, no id no booze.
It has been stated over and over again that emergency treatment there would not be a problem, so where is the problem going for routine treatment and carrying id?
What the fcuk is wrong with personal responsibilities in your book? You own nursery schools?
No one should be allowed entry into the UK without valid medical insurance and airlines should be fined for carrying clearly well due expectant mothers.
All this goes to show we should just tighten up control over who floats into our country despite what dickheads who are happy to right off £300 million or whatever because it's only small change and doesn't matter.

As for Corbyn?

Well if he occupies the liberal leftie chattering classes and stops them interfering in other matters,

long may he reign!

No, I've explained the actual situation. To save a drop in the ocean, you have to invest a significant amount first up front, then on an ongoing basis.

The gain isn't actually going to make a difference. If we sort out the bigger issue of the health and social care funding crisis first, then by all means consider tackling health tourism. But don't divert from the major issue. We've spent 20 years doing that and it has got us nowhere.

And by the way, I'm not interested in your "alternative facts/common sense" view on this. I spent 3 years of my life looking into payment and insurance solutions in the NHS for this exact sort of thing. Try and construct a business case for it, and the numbers do not stack up.

I was talking about collecting information in order to bill foreigners, not developing payment and insurance solutions for foreigners. God knows what you are talking about.

Ill/injured foreign person turns up at GP practice or maybe walk-in centre or maybe A&E department. Receptionist asks for name, address, date of birth and method of payment to be tendered. If it's basic treatment by a GP or practice nurse, a streamline card terminal will take payment or insurance cover details taken for invoicing. If the patient needs in-patient treatment, the department administrator creates a unique job number on the software and again takes payment details, johnny foreigner is repaired (hopefully), the computer job record updated with details of treatment and final accumulated cost and sent on his way rejoicing having signed a billing consent form for the insurer or paid by card. Billing all done simply from a menu of treatments which have a fixed cost per annum.

You don't have to spend a significant amount up front. The computers already exist, multiple software licences are very cheap per user and streamline terminals are virtually free from the card companies. There are many low-cost off the shelf pieces of software which accumulate costs against a project or job and then bill the client, or in this case the patient or their insurer. Not beyond the capacity of even the most blustering unionised half-wit to operate. And before you say many more people will need to be employed to operate such a system, I will call bullsh*t. Having seen the slow speed that most administrators in hospitals carry around bloody great sheaves of paper in files, existing employees could more than cope.

I don't disagree with this. When I've travelled outside the EU, first question they ask is show us the money. Not unreasonable we do likewise.

[Worthy4England]

Never needed medical treatment abroad, but what happens in other countries if you don't have insurance?

Think inside the EU. you can use E111 (or whatever it's called) for some treatments. Pretty much everywhere, they ask for a credit card swipe whether you have insurance or not, so they have a fallback, if your insurance doesn't come through.

[boltonboris]

Alright, but what if you're skint and don't have a credit card with funds available?

I'm not fishing for anything - I genuinely don;t know.. Especially outside EU