The Politics Thread

[Montreal Wanderer]

Can I ask where these numbers are from please Hobes?

From the Daily Telegraph of Nov 11, 2015
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... gures.html

I'm sure I've brought this up before, but having attended a lecture given by the man whose job it is to compile such statistics (coincidentally also in 2015) I'm flabbergasted that people bandy these figures around seemingly completely oblivious as to how fundamentally flawed they are.

Indeed, when he was pressed on the very question by a perplexed audience-member, he had to admit that the way they compiled them was far from perfect, but was effectively a best guess.

Well, as they say, figures lie and liars figure. I only gave the source as requested by LK, but doubt the figures had meaning. I checked the source partly because I bet myself Hoboh got it from the Daily Mail. I lost and I apologize, Hobes.

[Worthy4England]

I'm a little bit lost.

Last year, we had Boris, IDS, David Davies, Gisela Stewart et. al. telling us Brexit negotiations were going to be a piece of pi$$. Why is Theresa May saying today they're going to be really hard and need someone tough like Theresa to sort them out?

Last year they were going to be that easy that an asleep Jeremy Corbyn could've sorted them out - well probably not, but you get the drift. Today, according to Theresa, we need some sort of red, white and blue iron lady to put it up the hun?

What date before the election will "Who do you think you are kidding Mr Hitler" re-enter the charts? When will I receive my personal Anderson Shelter along with a manifesto leaflet?

I'd ask also "how fcking gullible do they think the electorate are?" - but I think we already know the answer to that.

Neither of the two main parties will be getting my 4 pennorth (as they haven't since about 1997) - but I'm not seeing any credible alternative either...

[Hoboh]

I'm a little bit lost.

Last year, we had Boris, IDS, David Davies, Gisela Stewart et. al. telling us Brexit negotiations were going to be a piece of pi$$. Why is Theresa May saying today they're going to be really hard and need someone tough like Theresa to sort them out?

Last year they were going to be that easy that an asleep Jeremy Corbyn could've sorted them out - well probably not, but you get the drift. Today, according to Theresa, we need some sort of red, white and blue iron lady to put it up the hun?

What date before the election will "Who do you think you are kidding Mr Hitler" re-enter the charts? When will I receive my personal Anderson Shelter along with a manifesto leaflet?

I'd ask also "how fcking gullible do they think the electorate are?" - but I think we already know the answer to that.

Neither of the two main parties will be getting my 4 pennorth (as they haven't since about 1997) - but I'm not seeing any credible alternative either...

We should start our own as long as that bloody 'progressive' word isn't in the title, neither of the big two actually float my vote.

[Lord Kangana]

Yeah, f*ck progress.

qv experts, Fed up of.

[BWFC_Insane]

Yeah, f*ck progress.

qv experts, Fed up of.

Progress, fact, knowledge, understanding...none of this matters.

The only thing that matters is the common sense approach, according to the white van driving sun and Mail reading 'middle england'.

We've become a nation of laughable 'I reckons'. It's embarrassing. And none of the political parties have been strong enough to show up this idiocy for what it is. So we are stuck with it.

[Harry Genshaw]

I spent this afternoon getting an update on the forthcoming welfare reforms from the CAB. The poorer sections of the public haven't fully felt the effects of the 2012 reforms. Some of the stuff that's coming is going to have a devastating effect on many families and communities.

Since the Liberals were responsible for getting this stuff through with the Tories and Eds Labour wouldn't commit to reforming any of the measures should they be elected, thank God there are still some folk like Corbyn prepared to argue against such punitive austerity policies

[Prufrock]

yeah, brilliant.

[BWFC_Insane]

I spent this afternoon getting an update on the forthcoming welfare reforms from the CAB. The poorer sections of the public haven't fully felt the effects of the 2012 reforms. Some of the stuff that's coming is going to have a devastating effect on many families and communities.

Since the Liberals were responsible for getting this stuff through with the Tories and Eds Labour wouldn't commit to reforming any of the measures should they be elected, thank God there are still some folk like Corbyn prepared to argue against such punitive austerity policies

Yeah, he'd argue against it. Only trouble is the money that would reverse it has already been allocated to finding more police officers...no funding more teachers....no funding more nurses.....no funding arts and culture.....

It's one thing to argue against things, it's another to put forward a credible and electable plan to change them. Corbyn and his team should be shouting this plan from the rooftops. They should have been for months. Yet still they don't even have one. And they are letting the government win, simply by saying 'strong and stable leadership'. It isn't even a challenge to be more convincing than the Tories right now. It's an open goal. Yet he's managing to sky it over the bar Deano style, time and time again.

[Worthy4England]

They'll have an extra £350m Per Week to play with, before any tax reforms. Can afford the lot with those two combined. Piece of piss, can't understand anyone questioning it at all.

[bedwetter2]

They'll have an extra £350m Per Week to play with, before any tax reforms. Can afford the lot with those two combined. Piece of piss, can't understand anyone questioning it at all.

Now, at last, you are being sensible.

[Worthy4England]

They'll have an extra £350m Per Week to play with, before any tax reforms. Can afford the lot with those two combined. Piece of piss, can't understand anyone questioning it at all.

Now, at last, you are being sensible.

Maybe you could help me understand why the negotiations that were going to be a piece of piss 10 months ago, require Gengis Khan at the helm today? Or maybe not...

[Hoboh]

They'll have an extra £350m Per Week to play with, before any tax reforms. Can afford the lot with those two combined. Piece of piss, can't understand anyone questioning it at all.

Now, at last, you are being sensible.

Maybe you could help me understand why the negotiations that were going to be a piece of piss 10 months ago, require Gengis Khan at the helm today? Or maybe not...

Sorry but I'm busy until September/October then it's holiday time, maybe after Christmas?

[Hoboh]

Yeah, f*ck progress.

qv experts, Fed up of.

Look there is progress and progress.
Anyone who thinks stuff such as Faceachebook and other equally garbage stuff, at home with the fat arses or whatever is progress are seriously deluded, kids with no time to be kids, uncool not to have the latest apple phone, pad etc. Spike trainers, a watch that pretends to be a health monitor, processed food, genetically modified food, loads of weight/diet faddy crap, a rapidly sliding into a bigger than the original communist state because it suits some rich and multinationals because it's good for us? Bullshit.

[Worthy4England]

How do we know what is progress or progress?

[Lord Kangana]

Remind me which political manifesto mentions Facebook or at home with the fat arses?

[bedwetter2]

They'll have an extra £350m Per Week to play with, before any tax reforms. Can afford the lot with those two combined. Piece of piss, can't understand anyone questioning it at all.

Now, at last, you are being sensible.

Maybe you could help me understand why the negotiations that were going to be a piece of piss 10 months ago, require Gengis Khan at the helm today? Or maybe not...

A slight exaggeration, I would suggest. The current megaphone diplomacy is all window dressing, in my opinion, and is just the taking of "positions" before compromises start to appear.
As you know, the option of no trade deal was mentioned right at the outset by the Leave campaign. And before any snowflakes present say well that would be disastrous for the UK, would it bollocks. The government would net some 7 billion extra over the use of WTO import and export tariffs re the EU and together with our EU budgetary contributions being removed we would be some 20 billion to the good.
Even if a trade deal is signed, that means bugger all if people, organisations, companies do not trade.
Ghengis May is only countering Adolf Juncker, Hermann Barnier, and Donald Doernitz in the first exchanges. Proper negotiation has not started but already those "roll-over and have their tummy tickled" types in the Labour, LibDems, Greens, SNP, BBC etc are saying that we should pay whatever the EU demand and be grateful for it. Disgraceful stuff from Chuka Ullulation, Farron, McDonald, Corbyn, etc. Comments to be expected from the fishy pair. Wouldn't it be great to have some of those in government giving up without a shot being fired?
Anyway, back to your point. If you really think that the EU will be able to maintain a united stance, then great. It won't. The Euro will tank and there may well be no one left to negotiate with by the summer of 2019.
So the most effective tactic may well be to set out our negotiating position and then tell the EU negotiating team that their position (such as is known) is unacceptable, walk out telling them that they have 6 months to come back with a sensible offer or we walk permanently.
Not exactly a "piece of piss" but not rocket science either. We must not get bogged down in the detail so they can drag it out. Instead we should be insisting upon overarching principles for each of the pieces of a deal. We agree to maintain their manufacturing and services standards in their directives and legislation for any of our exports to the EU and they accept that our legal system is supreme in all matters pertinent to the UK within an ongoing agreement, etc, etc. No more ECJ or ECHR and their creeping increasing influence on matters which are not in their constitution.

p.s. I have long puzzled what the idiots in the Labour and LibDem parties who quote "progressive" mean by that. Do they mean they are the equivalent to '70s prog rockers who went on aimlessly and interminently, e.g. Nice, Yes, etc. If so, good analogy because many of their policies are regressive so it can't be policies. So what is it?

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

Yeah, f*ck progress.

qv experts, Fed up of.

Look there is progress and progress.
Anyone who thinks stuff such as Faceachebook and other equally garbage stuff, at home with the fat arses or whatever is progress are seriously deluded, kids with no time to be kids, uncool not to have the latest apple phone, pad etc. Spike trainers, a watch that pretends to be a health monitor, processed food, genetically modified food, loads of weight/diet faddy crap, a rapidly sliding into a bigger than the original communist state because it suits some rich and multinationals because it's good for us? Bullshit.

You do realise that we all grew up with that shit, just shitter versions of it. I mean, what the feck do you think Findus crispy pancakes, angel delight, smash and pot noodles are? Casio watches with calculators, Pac Man, Nike trainers and faddy diets like Weight watchers. It's no different apart from people having a bigger platform to whinge about other people over inconsequential nonsense.

[Worthy4England]

They'll have an extra £350m Per Week to play with, before any tax reforms. Can afford the lot with those two combined. Piece of piss, can't understand anyone questioning it at all.

Now, at last, you are being sensible.

Maybe you could help me understand why the negotiations that were going to be a piece of piss 10 months ago, require Gengis Khan at the helm today? Or maybe not...

A slight exaggeration, I would suggest. The current megaphone diplomacy is all window dressing, in my opinion, and is just the taking of "positions" before compromises start to appear.
As you know, the option of no trade deal was mentioned right at the outset by the Leave campaign. And before any snowflakes present say well that would be disastrous for the UK, would it bollocks. The government would net some 7 billion extra over the use of WTO import and export tariffs re the EU and together with our EU budgetary contributions being removed we would be some 20 billion to the good.
Even if a trade deal is signed, that means bugger all if people, organisations, companies do not trade.
Ghengis May is only countering Adolf Juncker, Hermann Barnier, and Donald Doernitz in the first exchanges. Proper negotiation has not started but already those "roll-over and have their tummy tickled" types in the Labour, LibDems, Greens, SNP, BBC etc are saying that we should pay whatever the EU demand and be grateful for it. Disgraceful stuff from Chuka Ullulation, Farron, McDonald, Corbyn, etc. Comments to be expected from the fishy pair. Wouldn't it be great to have some of those in government giving up without a shot being fired?
Anyway, back to your point. If you really think that the EU will be able to maintain a united stance, then great. It won't. The Euro will tank and there may well be no one left to negotiate with by the summer of 2019.
So the most effective tactic may well be to set out our negotiating position and then tell the EU negotiating team that their position (such as is known) is unacceptable, walk out telling them that they have 6 months to come back with a sensible offer or we walk permanently.
Not exactly a "piece of piss" but not rocket science either. We must not get bogged down in the detail so they can drag it out. Instead we should be insisting upon overarching principles for each of the pieces of a deal. We agree to maintain their manufacturing and services standards in their directives and legislation for any of our exports to the EU and they accept that our legal system is supreme in all matters pertinent to the UK within an ongoing agreement, etc, etc. No more ECJ or ECHR and their creeping increasing influence on matters which are not in their constitution.

p.s. I have long puzzled what the idiots in the Labour and LibDem parties who quote "progressive" mean by that. Do they mean they are the equivalent to '70s prog rockers who went on aimlessly and interminently, e.g. Nice, Yes, etc. If so, good analogy because many of their policies are regressive so it can't be policies. So what is it?

Ok - so to summarise, Theresa May was talking shit then, and David Davies was right when he used the word straightforward to describe the negotiations 10 months ago and the land of milk and honey is still just around the corner? (I'm good with this, because I wouldn't want someone too scared to do a TV debate with Surrender Corbyn at the helm if they're going to get tough). I suspect as the campaign develops, they'll continue to hide her away apart from the odd daily set pieces involving chips to show she has the common touch.

Where I heard the "no trade" deal discussed by leave it always had "..but that's not going to happen..because of [mainly] the German car manufacturers" appended to the end of the sentence.

As for your big numbers - un-fecking-believable, Jeff - the last big number we saw from the Brexit camp didn't last 24 hours post the election.

[Worthy4England]

Yeah, f*ck progress.

qv experts, Fed up of.

Look there is progress and progress.
Anyone who thinks stuff such as Faceachebook and other equally garbage stuff, at home with the fat arses or whatever is progress are seriously deluded, kids with no time to be kids, uncool not to have the latest apple phone, pad etc. Spike trainers, a watch that pretends to be a health monitor, processed food, genetically modified food, loads of weight/diet faddy crap, a rapidly sliding into a bigger than the original communist state because it suits some rich and multinationals because it's good for us? Bullshit.

You do realise that we all grew up with that shit, just shitter versions of it. I mean, what the feck do you think Findus crispy pancakes, angel delight, smash and pot noodles are? Casio watches with calculators, Pac Man, Nike trainers and faddy diets like Weight watchers. It's no different apart from people having a bigger platform to whinge about other people over inconsequential nonsense.

I suspect that other things that have "come of age" during Hoboh's lifetime could also be included. Wide availability of cars. Cheap air travel, TV, messageboards (such as this one) on the Interweb - guess he's ok with those ones...

[BWFC_Insane]

A slight exaggeration, I would suggest. The current megaphone diplomacy is all window dressing, in my opinion, and is just the taking of "positions" before compromises start to appear.
As you know, the option of no trade deal was mentioned right at the outset by the Leave campaign. And before any snowflakes present say well that would be disastrous for the UK, would it bollocks. The government would net some 7 billion extra over the use of WTO import and export tariffs re the EU and together with our EU budgetary contributions being removed we would be some 20 billion to the good.
Even if a trade deal is signed, that means bugger all if people, organisations, companies do not trade.
Ghengis May is only countering Adolf Juncker, Hermann Barnier, and Donald Doernitz in the first exchanges. Proper negotiation has not started but already those "roll-over and have their tummy tickled" types in the Labour, LibDems, Greens, SNP, BBC etc are saying that we should pay whatever the EU demand and be grateful for it. Disgraceful stuff from Chuka Ullulation, Farron, McDonald, Corbyn, etc. Comments to be expected from the fishy pair. Wouldn't it be great to have some of those in government giving up without a shot being fired?
Anyway, back to your point. If you really think that the EU will be able to maintain a united stance, then great. It won't. The Euro will tank and there may well be no one left to negotiate with by the summer of 2019.
So the most effective tactic may well be to set out our negotiating position and then tell the EU negotiating team that their position (such as is known) is unacceptable, walk out telling them that they have 6 months to come back with a sensible offer or we walk permanently.
Not exactly a "piece of piss" but not rocket science either. We must not get bogged down in the detail so they can drag it out. Instead we should be insisting upon overarching principles for each of the pieces of a deal. We agree to maintain their manufacturing and services standards in their directives and legislation for any of our exports to the EU and they accept that our legal system is supreme in all matters pertinent to the UK within an ongoing agreement, etc, etc. No more ECJ or ECHR and their creeping increasing influence on matters which are not in their constitution.

p.s. I have long puzzled what the idiots in the Labour and LibDem parties who quote "progressive" mean by that. Do they mean they are the equivalent to '70s prog rockers who went on aimlessly and interminently, e.g. Nice, Yes, etc. If so, good analogy because many of their policies are regressive so it can't be policies. So what is it?

I think progressive might be reference to improvement. It also distinguishes from those who cannot get past the fact we're not in the 1950's anymore.

As for the rest of your post it is somewhat laughable. Even fellow leavers, have debunked the idea that no deal will work.

http://leavehq.com/blogview.aspx?blogno=128