The Great Art Debate

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

What do you mean when you say there wasn't a 'literal meaning'? Is it ever possible to find a 'literal' meaning when nothing figurative is depicted?

OK - the bit 'left over' when my wife shouted me in for 'The Art of Winter' - seriously good and I'm v glad not to have missed and recommend...

Well... the only literal truth here is squares and bars... But I'm not sure there is a 'literal truth' in even the most 'figurative' art... Not even photography (as some of the wonderful art on BBC4 just now indicated)... I think, to state - restate - my viewpoint... Art is created in the dynamic relationship between the creator and the viewer... But emphatically so with abstract expressionism...

I think some of our posters get angry when they can't see what the artist is getting at (not that some make any effort at all before dismissing them - they often boast that they wouldn't cross the road to see etc), or - yawn - their 4 year old could do it... I think they want the difficult to be easy and it refuses to be... And why should it?

I like the fact that art is a contended space... And that artists make it so... And the best make it so the most...

Yes, I suppose what I was thinking is that when you said that you weren't "looking for a literal meaning" is that it was so obvious to be banal!

Anyway, as I said to you at the match on Saturday, I find that Rothko room in the Tate to be far too dingy and dark - I think you said that you agreed but that it is in line with the artist's wishes? I think.

What I did find interesting was hearing that Rothko had been influenced by the Villa of the Mysteries in Pompei. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Villa_of_the_Mysteries" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[TANGODANCER]

WtW certainly won't like this, or class it as great art in any way, but he'll know immediately what it is. But I like it well although I haven't been able to find who the artist is.

Edit: It was Francisco Pradilla y Ortiz.



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[Montreal Wanderer]

WtW certainly won't like this, or class it as great art in any way, but he'll know immediately what it is. But I like it well although I haven't been able to find who the artist is.

Edit: It was Francisco Pradilla y Ortiz.



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Why wouldn't he like it? Padilla may not be a great artist but he wasn't completely incompetent. Or is William opposed to the Spanish taking Granada back from the Moors?

[TANGODANCER]

Why wouldn't he like it? Padilla may not be a great artist but he wasn't completely incompetent. Or is William opposed to the Spanish taking Granada back from the Moors?

I may be wrong about the painting, but I think the topic might not sit well with him.

[Montreal Wanderer]

Why wouldn't he like it? Padilla may not be a great artist but he wasn't completely incompetent. Or is William opposed to the Spanish taking Granada back from the Moors?

I may be wrong about the painting, but I think the topic might not sit well with him.

Possibly. One thing's for sure - I won't ever discuss Margaret Thatcher with him. A decent retired teacher whose goal seems to bring a little culture to all of us suddenly turns into a foaming monomaniac.... who knew?

[thebish]

i think you two should set up a new topic for such musings, called the "what would WtW do" thread - WWWtWD... you could have bracelets made and everything!

[TANGODANCER]

Why wouldn't he like it? Padilla may not be a great artist but he wasn't completely incompetent. Or is William opposed to the Spanish taking Granada back from the Moors?

I may be wrong about the painting, but I think the topic might not sit well with him.

Possibly. One thing's for sure - I won't ever discuss Margaret Thatcher with him. A decent retired teacher whose goal seems to bring a little culture to all of us suddenly turns into a foaming monomaniac.... who knew?

Might as well state what I see about the paintigs as art before he arrives. I do repect what Will says about an artist having to communicate his work to the viewer, so, in that context....

The scene is Granada, last bastion of the Moors in Andalusia; normally a place of sunshine, high temperatures and greenery, and the subject Fredinand and Isabela winning the final battle of the Spanish reclamation, but Paddillo, though a Spaniard has shown no joy or triumph in his painting. Winter, January to be exact and the bare, leafless trees, sad flower in the foreground and lack of shadows, plus the massed threatening clouds and the deep cart tracks in the mud all reflect that. Even the Alhambra has a subdued look to it. No one is smiling in triumph, no sword waving or cheering, it all has a distinct air of sadness, exactly what Boabdil would be feeling as he handed over the (symbolic) keys to his beloved city. The funeral black horse and his cloak add to that air. The Christian cross of Ferdinand and Isabella signify the religious aspects involved in the reclamation but again the painting doesn't glorify this, just undersating it in the background. The only sign of acquiecence being Boabdil's groom bowing to his conquereors. The end of an era. That's the story the painting tells to me.

As an aside, the intervention of Boabdil's mother saved him from having to kiss the hands of his foes, probably just before her famous motherly rollocking.

[Little Green Man]

The only sign of acquiecence being Boabdil's groom bowing to his conquereors.

I'd say he was gawping in astonishment at the other groom's giraffe-print pants.

[TANGODANCER]

The only sign of acquiecence being Boabdil's groom bowing to his conquereors.

I'd say he was gawping in astonishment at the other groom's giraffe-print pants.

You mean hotpants weren't invented in Carnaby Street?

[William the White]

Why wouldn't he like it? Padilla may not be a great artist but he wasn't completely incompetent. Or is William opposed to the Spanish taking Granada back from the Moors?

I may be wrong about the painting, but I think the topic might not sit well with him.

Possibly. One thing's for sure - I won't ever discuss Margaret Thatcher with him. A decent retired teacher whose goal seems to bring a little culture to all of us suddenly turns into a foaming monomaniac.... who knew?

Nonsense... I offered a moderate, cool and reasoned assessment of her time in power and aspects of her personality... Obviously I hid the profundity of loathing I feel for her and her works - and did this successfully. I think i should be given some credit for this!

[Bruce Rioja]

The only sign of acquiecence being Boabdil's groom bowing to his conquereors.

I'd say he was gawping in astonishment at the other groom's giraffe-print pants.

It's an awful painting in my opinion. I bet every cheap Spanish taverna has a framed, printed copy of it hanging on an Artexed wall.

[William the White]

Why wouldn't he like it? Padilla may not be a great artist but he wasn't completely incompetent. Or is William opposed to the Spanish taking Granada back from the Moors?

I may be wrong about the painting, but I think the topic might not sit well with him.

Possibly. One thing's for sure - I won't ever discuss Margaret Thatcher with him. A decent retired teacher whose goal seems to bring a little culture to all of us suddenly turns into a foaming monomaniac.... who knew?

Might as well state what I see about the paintigs as art before he arrives. I do repect what Will says about an artist having to communicate his work to the viewer, so, in that context....

The scene is Granada, last bastion of the Moors in Andalusia; normally a place of sunshine, high temperatures and greenery, and the subject Fredinand and Isabela winning the final battle of the Spanish reclamation, but Paddillo, though a Spaniard has shown no joy or triumph in his painting. Winter, January to be exact and the bare, leafless trees, sad flower in the foreground and lack of shadows, plus the massed threatening clouds and the deep cart tracks in the mud all reflect that. Even the Alhambra has a subdued look to it. No one is smiling in triumph, no sword waving or cheering, it all has a distinct air of sadness, exactly what Boabdil would be feeling as he handed over the (symbolic) keys to his beloved city. The funeral black horse and his cloak add to that air. The Christian cross of Ferdinand and Isabella signify the religious aspects involved in the reclamation but again the painting doesn't glorify this, just undersating it in the background. The only sign of acquiecence being Boabdil's groom bowing to his conquereors. The end of an era. That's the story the painting tells to me.

As an aside, the intervention of Boabdil's mother saved him from having to kiss the hands of his foes, probably just before her famous motherly rollocking.

I think that's a pretty good interpretation of the painting. Rather more generous than the experience of Granada after the Christian invasion and conquest. Forced conversions, expulsion of Moslems who refuse to convert. Expulsion of Jews.

[Montreal Wanderer]

Why wouldn't he like it? Padilla may not be a great artist but he wasn't completely incompetent. Or is William opposed to the Spanish taking Granada back from the Moors?

I may be wrong about the painting, but I think the topic might not sit well with him.

Possibly. One thing's for sure - I won't ever discuss Margaret Thatcher with him. A decent retired teacher whose goal seems to bring a little culture to all of us suddenly turns into a foaming monomaniac.... who knew?

Nonsense... I offered a moderate, cool and reasoned assessment of her time in power and aspects of her personality... Obviously I hid the profundity of loathing I feel for her and her works - and did this successfully. I think i should be given some credit for this!

Sorry, I must have got you confused with half a dozen other posters who seemed to share your view but lacked your moderation, rationality and ability to forgive.

[TANGODANCER]

I think that's a pretty good interpretation of the painting. Rather more generous than the experience of Granada after the Christian invasion and conquest. Forced conversions, expulsion of Moslems who refuse to convert. Expulsion of Jews.

Which was barbaric action in a barbaric age. No arguments on that aspect. Somewhat swings and roundabouts with the methods of the original Moors who invaded and conquered pretty much all of Spain, wiping out anyone who stood in their way.

[Montreal Wanderer]

I think that's a pretty good interpretation of the painting. Rather more generous than the experience of Granada after the Christian invasion and conquest. Forced conversions, expulsion of Moslems who refuse to convert. Expulsion of Jews.

Which was barbaric action in a barbaric age. No arguments on that aspect. Somewhat swings and roundabouts with the methods of the original Moors who invaded and conquered pretty much all of Spain, wiping out anyone who stood in their way.

In a discussion of whether a religious minority was better off living in Christian Spain versus, say, the Muslim Ottoman Empire I don't think there can be any question one would be better off in Turkey in any period from the fall of Granada (as painted) to the turn of the last century (i.e. 1901). Catholic Spain has never been noted for tolerance, whereas the Ottoman Empire was.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Blame Monty... he brought up Thatcher on the Art thread.
I remember this from back in the 80s, the most infamous of the Class War covers. I've got it (in the flesh - first edition as published, not a reprint), and I've often thought about having it framed and hung on the bog wall...


Discuss...

[Montreal Wanderer]

Blame Monty... he brought up Thatcher on the Art thread.
I remember this from back in the 80s, the most infamous of the Class War covers. I've got it (in the flesh - first edition as published, not a reprint), and I've often thought about having it framed and hung on the bog wall...


Discuss...

No sir, I responded to your No. 29 on the art thread then moved the discussion to politics. I wish I had left it alone mind - strong feelings on this one still.

[mrkint]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-21166326" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[William the White]

Blame Monty... he brought up Thatcher on the Art thread.
I remember this from back in the 80s, the most infamous of the Class War covers. I've got it (in the flesh - first edition as published, not a reprint), and I've often thought about having it framed and hung on the bog wall...


Discuss...

My favourite Class War cover was when Princess Margaret was taken into hospital for a lung condition... Class War had a hand with an open packet of cigarettes, offering it to HRH... And the headline shouting 'Class War says... Have another one, Maggie....'

I note that Freedom, probably the oldest Anarchist paper in the world, which was a weekly when I was selling it, is now a monthly... Shame.

[thebish]

I note that Freedom, probably the oldest Anarchist paper in the world, which was a weekly when I was selling it, is now a monthly... Shame.

are you still buying it? if not - then maybe that's one of the reasons??