General Chit Chat

[thebish]

I'll simplify it. Here is a Catholic prayer upon which our beliefs are based. What don't you believe about it, or have different views on?

I believe in God, yep - I do - but there isn't just one notion of what "God" means...
the Father Almighty, I wouldn't us such gender-specific titles if I could avoid it
Creator of Heaven and earth; no - not really - not in the way you do, anyway
and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, Our Lord, "only son" is a very loaded and unclear title - so - would need to know what you mean...
Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, not literally - no - conceived by Mary & Joseph - but if you allow the word "conceive" a much wider interpretation - then, maybe!
born of the Virgin Mary, born - yes, but "Virgin" is simply a mistranslation of "young girl"
suffered under Pontius Pilate, aye - tick!
was crucified, died, and was buried. yep!
He descended into Hell. don't really believe there is such a place - so - no!
The third day He arose again from the dead; aye
He ascended into Heaven, aye (again - dep. on your definition of heaven and ascend!)
sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty; not on a chair, if that's what you mean!
from thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead. not big on the idea of ultimate judgement..
I believe in the Holy Spirit, aye..
the holy Catholic Church, in that it exists...but I suspect you mean more when you say that...I wouldn't
the communion of saints, aye
the forgiveness of sins, aye
the resurrection of the body, don't think so - what do you actually mean when you say that?
and the life everlasting. Amen. not really sure - agnostic on that one... what do you mean by that?

[Montreal Wanderer]

Having read a bit on Mormonism quite recently I do find it a little scary that the next President may come from that bretheren

Spot on, Harry. G W Bush believed that Genesis was entirely factual which was also unnerving. These men have fingers not far from important buttons.

[Montreal Wanderer]

Do you believe in Adam and Eve then, Tango?

Yes. I believe in creation. As I said, I believe in many things and am unsure about many others. The jury's still out on much. I was born and raised a Roman Catholic and am a Christian; that doesn't mean I approve or don't question the many things that Catholics have done and claimed to be in the name of God. The fact that my beliefs don't always meet agreement from others only strengthens the case that common denominators in belief are few amongst mankind.

Interesting. See, to try and make head or tail of it I'm about to sit the Alpha course. However, I'm pretty sure that I'll never ever believe the Adam and Eve story which strikes me as being not only a load of absolute bollocks but completely impossible as well.

All I can say is you'll believe what you believe, Bruce. The Old Testament tells us that God made man in his own image and that man was Adam. One of my main reasons for belief in God is a refusal to believe that this wonderful world and all in it just happened because of atoms, or whatever. With God, all things are possible, or so I choose to believe. Unfortunately, I'm nearer to finding out the truth than you.

I'm a bit confused here Tango. I was under the impression that most churches believe the Genesis creation story to be allegorical, and accept the theory of evolution. That is God created everything through evolution but took rather longer than six days. Surely they don't the Garden of Eden seriously, but rather of moral fable about the struggle between good and evil (and how women cause all the problems in the world of course).

[TANGODANCER]

None of the things listed depend upon what I mean, they're not my words but those of The Apostles Creed, the Catholic version, which differs only slightly from other versions. I just needed to know if and where your own beliefs differed. I now do, so thanks. Nothing further needed.

sitteth at the right hand of God, the Father Almighty; not on a chair, if that's what you mean!

Really, no really.

[TANGODANCER]

I'm a bit confused here Tango. I was under the impression that most churches believe the Genesis creation story to be allegorical, and accept the theory of evolution. That is God created everything through evolution but took rather longer than six days. Surely they don't the Garden of Eden seriously, but rather of moral fable about the struggle between good and evil (and how women cause all the problems in the world of course).

Monty, I've no idea what they believe now, or take seriously or don't. I'm not the best church-goer ever and those things are discussed more outside of churches than in them. I tend to communicate with head-office in the main and it's usually more apologetic than asking questions.

[thebish]

None of the things list depend upon what I mean, they're not my words but those of The Apostles Creed, the Catholic version, which differs only slightly from other versions. I just needed to know if and where your own beliefs differed. I now do, so thanks. Nothing further needed.

you are welcome...

but I was under the impression that you were presenting that as a summary of what you believe - in which case - isn't it reasonable to ask you what you mean when you say it?

so many of those words and phrases are very heavily theologically-loaded and deliberately so.

the words positively INVITE the question - what do you mean when you say that, surely?

[thebish]

I'm a bit confused here Tango. I was under the impression that most churches believe the Genesis creation story to be allegorical,

yeah - they do!

[TANGODANCER]

None of the things list depend upon what I mean, they're not my words but those of The Apostles Creed, the Catholic version, which differs only slightly from other versions. I just needed to know if and where your own beliefs differed. I now do, so thanks. Nothing further needed.

you are welcome...

but I was under the impression that you were presenting that as a summary of what you believe - in which case - isn't it reasonable to ask you what you mean when you say it?

so many of those words and phrases are very heavily theologically-loaded and deliberately so.

the words positively INVITE the question - what do you mean when you say that, surely?

I prefer to just leave it simply as it says and let everyone take their own meanings from it.
I never studied theology so I'm not your man for theological debates, and I stopped wearing a cassock when I retired from being an altar-boy, at fourteen. All the confusion started with the Old Testament and those Ten Commandments. They tell us "Thou shalt not kill", then Joshua and co wipe out half the population.

[thebish]

I prefer to just leave it simply as it says and let everyone take their own meanings from it.

well, it is not "simply as it is" - it was never designed that way - it is far from simple!

and I wasn't asking for everyone's meanings - nor seeking to impose mine - I was just asking what YOU (Tango) mean when you say it!

you must mean something when you say those phrases - else why say them?

(nor do I even begin to understand why wearing a cassock has anything to do with what you might mean when you say those phrases...)

[TANGODANCER]

I prefer to just leave it simply as it says and let everyone take their own meanings from it.

well, it is not "simply as it is" - it was never designed that way - it is far from simple!

and I wasn't asking for everyone's meanings - nor seeking to impose mine - I was just asking what YOU (Tango) mean when you say it!

you must mean something when you say those phrases - else why say them?

(nor do I even begin to understand why wearing a cassock has anything to do with what you might mean when you say those phrases...)

Since you persist in reading things that aren't there, ie the meaning of "simply" in my sentence was just a figure of speech, not meaning any of it was simple. My reference to a cassock was again, not demeaning but a simple one: You are a man of the cloth. It's your vocation, so you will have much stronger views and better knowlege on church matters than mine. If you think I'm doing a breakdown of the Apostles Creed and the meaning of it all, forget it.

[bobo the clown]

You're bullying again Bish.

[TANGODANCER]

You're bullying again Bish.

No, he isn't Bobo, he really isn't.

[William the White]

It often seems to me that thebish likes to interrogate rather than offer testimony himself. Perhaps a defensive mechanism - it makes his ideas harder to challenge if he keeps them secret...

Even in this exchange with Tango, that certainly follows a familiar pattern, thebish, despite offering to explain himself, doesn't actually do it in any other than the most tangential ways...

Which is a pity, I think. I'd be interested to know what his ideas are. But they remain a mystery... A little hint, more often about what he does not believe than what he does, will have to suffice...

At least he can't be accused of evangelism...

[thebish]

It often seems to me that thebish likes to interrogate rather than offer testimony himself. Perhaps a defensive mechanism - it makes his ideas harder to challenge if he keeps them secret...

Even in this exchange with Tango, that certainly follows a familiar pattern, thebish, despite offering to explain himself, doesn't actually do it in any other than the most tangential ways...

Which is a pity, I think. I'd be interested to know what his ideas are. But they remain a mystery... A little hint, more often about what he does not believe than what he does, will have to suffice...

At least he can't be accused of evangelism...

I was asked to comment on a load of phrases - whether I agreed with them or not. I put my views in blue alongside each one.. some I agreed with - some I didn't.

not sure what your beef is...

[thebish]

Since you persist in reading things that aren't there, ie the meaning of "simply" in my sentence was just a figure of speech, not meaning any of it was simple. My reference to a cassock was again, not demeaning but a simple one: You are a man of the cloth. It's your vocation, so you will have much stronger views and better knowlege on church matters than mine. If you think I'm doing a breakdown of the Apostles Creed and the meaning of it all, forget it.

I wasn't using "simple" to mean "easy/simple" either - but plain.. there is no "plain/simple/obvious" meaning to hardly any of those phrases - they are deliberately multi-textured...

I'm not sure if any of them can simply stand on their own without further exploration/explanation/interpretation

you asked me to comment on them - I didn't initiate any of this - they were the phrases that you introduced (not me) - I still don't think it is out of order for me to ask in return what you mean by them - given that you asked me to comment on them.

I'm not asking for a breakdown of the apostles creed

I am just interested in what you mean by the phrases that you say encapsulate your faith in some way - that's all!

if you (or bobo or william) don't think my answers were good enough - then i am happy to expand on any one of them.

I am very sorry if you feel bullied.

[TANGODANCER]

I am very sorry if you feel bullied.

Leave it out will you.

[thebish]

I am very sorry if you feel bullied.

Leave it out will you.

no - i can see how that might have sounded not genuine - but actually it was!! 9believe it or not!)

I was interested by your question and tried to answer your question about the apostles creed as clearly as I could within the confines of a football forum! I will happily expand upon anything that was or still is unclear...

so I am genuinely sorry if that comes across as bullying or if you feel got at or if you feel I have been evasive.

[TANGODANCER]

I am very sorry if you feel bullied.

Leave it out will you.

no - i can see how that might have sounded not genuine - but actually it was!! 9believe it or not!)

I was interested by your question and tried to answer your question about the apostles creed as clearly as I could within the confines of a football forum! I will happily expand upon anything that was or still is unclear...

so I am genuinely sorry if that comes across as bullying or if you feel got at or if you feel I have been evasive.

What are you on about bish? I never mentioned bullying, it was Bobo. I just laughed at the idea . Do you actually read all my posts or just the bits you pick out? I'm perfectly able to put my case, I did. You answered, I said that was all that was needed. The Apostles Creed is nothing to do with what "I" mean, it's a laid down version from eons ago, I simply copied and pasted it .

For what it's worth: " Descended into hell" is a classic example of one of those "word of man" things I spoke of. That, I decidedly don't agree with as it has no basis. That's about it from me.

[Prufrock]

On the way to Hull yesterday, my cousin pulled out some spearmint polos. Not had them in ages! Them still tasted the same, but they'd lost that cool ice blue streak they had through them. Still no closer to hunting down the citrus ones. They were beautiful.

[bobo the clown]

I'm a couple of days late for this, but bggr it, I think it's an interesting tidbit.

Many of us (tho it may be a local thing, so not all) will have heard the term "Once every Preston Guild" for something being a rare occurence.

Also, we will have heard a similar term "Once in a blue moon".

Last Friday began a Preston Guild. The happen every 20 years.

Also last Friday was a Blue Moon ... the 2nd full moon of a particular calendar month. They happen maybe once a year ... at a stretch twice.

The odds for a Preston Guild beginning on a Blue Moon must be pretty long.

Any mathematicians out there care to work it out ?