The wonderful EU and Migration thread!

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I've really no idea how I'll vote in this. In life I'd generally want to do the opposite of what David Cameron is proposing or the opposite of what the Daily mail/express suggests, so this leaves me stumped

Not knowing what either Cameron or the Daily Mail are advocating, I can still tell you what you should be voting. The choice of your words clearly indicate that your gut feeling on this issue (Yes/No, as I say I've no idea which) lies in the direction that Cameron and the Daily Mail are campaigning for, therefore you should be voting for that option, because otherwise, if your gut feeling was the opposite of what the Daily Cameron was going for, then you wouldn't be stumped at all.

[BWFC_Insane]

I still find it a bizarre world that the British public are to be offered a vote on such a wide ranging and complex issue such as EU membership. It isn't even clear what that will mean in a few years time. Let alone the economic, regulatory and legal ramifications. But for example aren't afforded a vote on more pressing social problems within society.

For example, as W4E brings it up, smoking bans.

My point is that there are many issues where I feel a direct polling of the electorate would be useful in determining public opinion and plotting policy course thereafter. But instead the vote is on an issue I think very few people are adequately informed to vote on. Even people who study political and economic ramifications of EU membership can't definitively agree.

[Harry Genshaw]

I've really no idea how I'll vote in this. In life I'd generally want to do the opposite of what David Cameron is proposing or the opposite of what the Daily mail/express suggests, so this leaves me stumped

Not knowing what either Cameron or the Daily Mail are advocating, I can still tell you what you should be voting. The choice of your words clearly indicate that your gut feeling on this issue (Yes/No, as I say I've no idea which) lies in the direction that Cameron and the Daily Mail are campaigning for, therefore you should be voting for that option, because otherwise, if your gut feeling was the opposite of what the Daily Cameron was going for, then you wouldn't be stumped at all.

Cameron will be encouraging us to stay in after his spin doctors tell us how he has single handedly won concessions off everyone.

The mail, the express and other xenophobes (xenop hobohs?) will be telling us to leave.

I can't pi55 both sides off, sadly.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I've really no idea how I'll vote in this. In life I'd generally want to do the opposite of what David Cameron is proposing or the opposite of what the Daily mail/express suggests, so this leaves me stumped

Not knowing what either Cameron or the Daily Mail are advocating, I can still tell you what you should be voting. The choice of your words clearly indicate that your gut feeling on this issue (Yes/No, as I say I've no idea which) lies in the direction that Cameron and the Daily Mail are campaigning for, therefore you should be voting for that option, because otherwise, if your gut feeling was the opposite of what the Daily Cameron was going for, then you wouldn't be stumped at all.

Cameron will be encouraging us to stay in after his spin doctors tell us how he has single handedly won concessions off everyone.

The mail, the express and other xenophobes (xenop hobohs?) will be telling us to leave.

I can't pi55 both sides off, sadly.

Ahh, I see. I misunderstood, I just assumed that the Mail and Cameron would be in the same barbed wire boat.

[thebish]

I've really no idea how I'll vote in this. In life I'd generally want to do the opposite of what David Cameron is proposing or the opposite of what the Daily mail/express suggests, so this leaves me stumped

well.. problem is, DC hasn't said how he'd vote yet - cos it is all supposed to depend on the results of his renegotiation charm-offensive!

so - given that he doesn't know yet (or, at least, he says he doesn't!) - then it is entirely natural for you to be stumped until he has made up his mind!

[Worthy4England]

I still find it a bizarre world that the British public are to be offered a vote on such a wide ranging and complex issue such as EU membership. It isn't even clear what that will mean in a few years time. Let alone the economic, regulatory and legal ramifications. But for example aren't afforded a vote on more pressing social problems within society.

For example, as W4E brings it up, smoking bans.

My point is that there are many issues where I feel a direct polling of the electorate would be useful in determining public opinion and plotting policy course thereafter. But instead the vote is on an issue I think very few people are adequately informed to vote on. Even people who study political and economic ramifications of EU membership can't definitively agree.

I think there are probably better scenarios that would lend themselves to votes of this nature than maybe the smoking ban. I mean, I'm sure we should be having monthly referenda on the base rate of inflation, nurses pay, levels of housing benefit. All of which most folks have a clear insight on.

The way I see it is we could leave the EU (hurrah, I hear Hoboh say) and still be tied to the principles of Article 48 - like Iceland, Switzerland and Norway - on Free Movement.

So go figure....

[Lost Leopard Spot]

So go figure....

I knew it, from the 'get-go', the clue being your going forward enthusiasm... you're a Yank

[Worthy4England]

So go figure....

I knew it, from the 'get-go', the clue being your going forward enthusiasm... you're a Yank

Look it's easy to work out - just go do the math.

[BWFC_Insane]

I still find it a bizarre world that the British public are to be offered a vote on such a wide ranging and complex issue such as EU membership. It isn't even clear what that will mean in a few years time. Let alone the economic, regulatory and legal ramifications. But for example aren't afforded a vote on more pressing social problems within society.

For example, as W4E brings it up, smoking bans.

My point is that there are many issues where I feel a direct polling of the electorate would be useful in determining public opinion and plotting policy course thereafter. But instead the vote is on an issue I think very few people are adequately informed to vote on. Even people who study political and economic ramifications of EU membership can't definitively agree.

I think there are probably better scenarios that would lend themselves to votes of this nature than maybe the smoking ban. I mean, I'm sure we should be having monthly referenda on the base rate of inflation, nurses pay, levels of housing benefit. All of which most folks have a clear insight on.

The way I see it is we could leave the EU (hurrah, I hear Hoboh say) and still be tied to the principles of Article 48 - like Iceland, Switzerland and Norway - on Free Movement.

So go figure....

Quite. I mean it is impractical to poll on all these things but I just wanted an example of something that is more relevant for society to decide on.

I actually think as a society we should be more allowed to define our own social laws to an extent.

But I just think something as important either way as EU membership isn't the right thing to put into a crapshoot...

[Hoboh]

I still find it a bizarre world that the British public are to be offered a vote on such a wide ranging and complex issue such as EU membership. It isn't even clear what that will mean in a few years time. Let alone the economic, regulatory and legal ramifications. But for example aren't afforded a vote on more pressing social problems within society.

For example, as W4E brings it up, smoking bans.

My point is that there are many issues where I feel a direct polling of the electorate would be useful in determining public opinion and plotting policy course thereafter. But instead the vote is on an issue I think very few people are adequately informed to vote on. Even people who study political and economic ramifications of EU membership can't definitively agree.

I think there are probably better scenarios that would lend themselves to votes of this nature than maybe the smoking ban. I mean, I'm sure we should be having monthly referenda on the base rate of inflation, nurses pay, levels of housing benefit. All of which most folks have a clear insight on.

The way I see it is we could leave the EU (hurrah, I hear Hoboh say) and still be tied to the principles of Article 48 - like Iceland, Switzerland and Norway - on Free Movement.

So go figure....

Quite. I mean it is impractical to poll on all these things but I just wanted an example of something that is more relevant for society to decide on.

I actually think as a society we should be more allowed to define our own social laws to an extent.

But I just think something as important either way as EU membership isn't the right thing to put into a crapshoot...

So go on then, what social laws can we be expected to democratically vote on when the issues are being decided by appointed politburo masquerading as an EU commission?
You see this is where the whole dammed in campaign falls short, just how the hell is little old BWFCi's democratic rights being improved by the EU when your vote will be worth less more than it is today?
Democratic my ass!

[Hoboh]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... es-M6.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Had to happen didn't it!!

Go on open your doors to these 'poor migrants' and see what you get!

[William the White]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... es-M6.html

Had to happen didn't it!!

Go on open your doors to these 'poor migrants' and see what you get!

You do have to stop reading the DM online. It's absolutely nullifying the tablets.

And then the voices will start all over again.

And Nanny will be back... And angry with you...

[Hoboh]

Also speaking at the launch, the former head of the Association of Chief Police Officers (Acpo), Sir Hugh Orde, said that fugitives across Europe would flock to the UK as a safe haven if it left the European Union because a series of laws and extradition agreements would be ripped up.

That's the lowest I've seen the Europhiles steep to so far and complete utter bollocks to boot!

If we have complete control over our borders then just how are all these 'big time Charlie's' going to get here?

Oh hang on, I forgot our coppers are crap unless it's persecuting motorists!

[bobo the clown]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... es-M6.html

Had to happen didn't it!!

Go on open your doors to these 'poor migrants' and see what you get!

You do have to stop reading the DM online. It's absolutely nullifying the tablets.

And then the voices will start all over again.

And Nanny will be back... And angry with you...

Nice one Willy.

Is it not a true story though .... y'know BECAUSE it's in the Mail ?? It was also reported in the local Stoke & Birmingham papers. But, tellingly, not in any other national reports nor tv/radio.

Now that may be because it didn't happen .... or because there's a sort of agreement not to report some stuff that doesn't suit.

I've no idea which that is ... but if it IS the latter that would be quite worrying ... no ?

[Worthy4England]

Someone help me out here, coz I'm a bit lost on a couple of points.

The UK Border Force can search any vehicle it wants to, entering the country. No change in legislation required.

Our door wasn't "open" to these illegal immigrants who stowed in a lorry, we just didn't search the fcking thing.

Maybe under the new trade agreement with Hungary, we'd just stop accepting deliveries...that'd solve it good n proper.

[Hoboh]

Someone help me out here, coz I'm a bit lost on a couple of points.

The UK Border Force can search any vehicle it wants to, entering the country. No change in legislation required.
Very true

Our door wasn't "open" to these illegal immigrants who stowed in a lorry, we just didn't search the fcking thing.
Not exactly but the policy of the EU in relation to migration puts them at the 'front gate' so to speak.

Maybe under the new trade agreement with Hungary, we'd just stop accepting deliveries...that'd solve it good n proper.
Now given that most of the illegals have been jumping from Hungarian trucks, it would be prudent to stop and search all Hungarian trucks or trucks from that country but just watch the EU shit storm about free movement of goods if we did that! Hell under TTIP they'd be suing the ass off us.

[Worthy4England]

Someone help me out here, coz I'm a bit lost on a couple of points.

The UK Border Force can search any vehicle it wants to, entering the country. No change in legislation required.
Very true

Our door wasn't "open" to these illegal immigrants who stowed in a lorry, we just didn't search the fcking thing.
Not exactly but the policy of the EU in relation to migration puts them at the 'front gate' so to speak.

Maybe under the new trade agreement with Hungary, we'd just stop accepting deliveries...that'd solve it good n proper.
Now given that most of the illegals have been jumping from Hungarian trucks, it would be prudent to stop and search all Hungarian trucks or trucks from that country but just watch the EU shit storm about free movement of goods if we did that! Hell under TTIP they'd be suing the ass off us.

Good so we agree on point 1.

On point 2 - How do you think local (non-EU) legislation will prevent this when we're outside Europe? We just snarl at the EU and say please remove immigrants from Calais? That'll work really well...I can see them quivering - no honest, I can.

And point 3 - So we stop and search all Hungarian trucks. Let's assume we're outside Europe (and therefore TTIP) for a minute. We impose search restrictions on Hungarian trucks, which we can do currently - why do you think that the EU then wouldn't impose similar "inconveniences" upon our goods in transit as they're coming from outside the EU? Do you think that folks that have managed to get all the way from Afghanistan to "our front gate" wherever that actually is, wouldn't just switch to a different Country's trucks?

[Hoboh]

Someone help me out here, coz I'm a bit lost on a couple of points.

The UK Border Force can search any vehicle it wants to, entering the country. No change in legislation required.
Very true

Our door wasn't "open" to these illegal immigrants who stowed in a lorry, we just didn't search the fcking thing.
Not exactly but the policy of the EU in relation to migration puts them at the 'front gate' so to speak.

Maybe under the new trade agreement with Hungary, we'd just stop accepting deliveries...that'd solve it good n proper.
Now given that most of the illegals have been jumping from Hungarian trucks, it would be prudent to stop and search all Hungarian trucks or trucks from that country but just watch the EU shit storm about free movement of goods if we did that! Hell under TTIP they'd be suing the ass off us.

Good so we agree on point 1.

On point 2 - How do you think local (non-EU) legislation will prevent this when we're outside Europe? We just snarl at the EU and say please remove immigrants from Calais? That'll work really well...I can see them quivering - no honest, I can.

And point 3 - So we stop and search all Hungarian trucks. Let's assume we're outside Europe (and therefore TTIP) for a minute. We impose search restrictions on Hungarian trucks, which we can do currently - why do you think that the EU then wouldn't impose similar "inconveniences" upon our goods in transit as they're coming from outside the EU? Do you think that folks that have managed to get all the way from Afghanistan to "our front gate" wherever that actually is, wouldn't just switch to a different Country's trucks?

I really love the way you assume the EU can work together on anything, let alone a Europe wide blanket on stopping and searching UK trucks
Actually I find it very generous of the French (and all the other EU countries the migrants have swarmed through) to let them camp on our doorstep even though we are members!
What really riles me is the Europhiles seem to think the EU is a God like creation because it's all about business, it isn't, it's a part but not the be all and end all, there is at least as much minus in there.

[Worthy4England]

Someone help me out here, coz I'm a bit lost on a couple of points.

The UK Border Force can search any vehicle it wants to, entering the country. No change in legislation required.
Very true

Our door wasn't "open" to these illegal immigrants who stowed in a lorry, we just didn't search the fcking thing.
Not exactly but the policy of the EU in relation to migration puts them at the 'front gate' so to speak.

Maybe under the new trade agreement with Hungary, we'd just stop accepting deliveries...that'd solve it good n proper.
Now given that most of the illegals have been jumping from Hungarian trucks, it would be prudent to stop and search all Hungarian trucks or trucks from that country but just watch the EU shit storm about free movement of goods if we did that! Hell under TTIP they'd be suing the ass off us.

Good so we agree on point 1.

On point 2 - How do you think local (non-EU) legislation will prevent this when we're outside Europe? We just snarl at the EU and say please remove immigrants from Calais? That'll work really well...I can see them quivering - no honest, I can.

And point 3 - So we stop and search all Hungarian trucks. Let's assume we're outside Europe (and therefore TTIP) for a minute. We impose search restrictions on Hungarian trucks, which we can do currently - why do you think that the EU then wouldn't impose similar "inconveniences" upon our goods in transit as they're coming from outside the EU? Do you think that folks that have managed to get all the way from Afghanistan to "our front gate" wherever that actually is, wouldn't just switch to a different Country's trucks?

I really love the way you assume the EU can work together on anything, let alone a Europe wide blanket on stopping and searching UK trucks
Actually I find it very generous of the French (and all the other EU countries the migrants have swarmed through) to let them camp on our doorstep even though we are members!
What really riles me is the Europhiles seem to think the EU is a God like creation because it's all about business, it isn't, it's a part but not the be all and end all, there is at least as much minus in there.

No it's nothing like a godlike creation. Just better than the alternatives. You have offered no answer to how us being in Europe caused the incident in Keele, nor how being out of Europe would solve it. Part a) it didn't and part b) it wouldn't.

Just more random unconnected rantings.

[bobo the clown]

^^ but WAS THERE an "incident in Keele" ?

Coz it was reported in the Mail. So I thought it was a lie.