The Politics Thread

[BWFC_Insane]

If Brexit is going to be such a disaster why aren't one of the parties promoting a remain campaign? I mean, they're supposed to be the experts yet neither Labour or the Liberals, who will have majority remainers in their camps, are talking about ignoring the referendum result

The Lib Dems were wanting a second referendum. There are plenty of Labour MPs who continue to make the case to remain, and plenty of Tory ones too.

The fact is that all political parties are scared of appearing to be anti democratic.

I however couldn't care less. I'm not campaigning to reverse Brexit. I'm just pointing out how bad it is.

We might have even got away with it had our government realised more quickly that the negotiations weren't best approached with empty threats and fist shaking. Also if they'd done some homework and actually knew what they were doing.

[TANGODANCER]

You voted out. This is what you wanted and you're getting it. In a democracy I have the right to point out exactly what a mess this is. It isn't like we are talking in hindsight either.
And some armchair psychology. The reason LLS is getting so flustered and upset is because deep down he knows we are right. He will never admit it of course. He can't even admit it to himself. But he knows. He knows.

A little more armchair phylosophy for you from a greater authority than I:
"The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ, Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit. Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line, Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it."
Omar Khayyam, the Persian sage, not the owner of the grocer's shop on Manchester Road.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Christ Brexiteers are like a cult. You voted for it. This is what you're getting. It's nowt to do with me or anyone else who didn't vote for it. You wanted dicks like Davis taking us out wirh no proper preparation. In any other job these people would be sacked for ineptitude. They haven't done their jobs. Time to go.

Of course we did, and of course we are. And in truth Insaney, you, like the rest of us had no clear idea what we were voting for good or bad. No use playing smartypants and adopting a "I told you all along" attitude now. We still don't know for sure, that's why we have a government to handle these things. Most of us voted to get away from Brussels and co ruling everything about us and take our decisions as a country for ourselves (that's what having our country back actually means, nothing more). The government decided it was the thing to do and gave us the vote. Cameron our then P.M, took the hump and resigned. The country voted to leave. We're leaving, whether you like it or no, yet already you're condemning anything you personally don't agree with as being canon law. It ain't mate, live with it.

You voted out. This is what you wanted and you're getting it. In a democracy I have the right to point out exactly what a mess this is. It isn't like we are talking in hindsight either.

And some armchair psychology. The reason LLS is getting so flustered and upset is because deep down he knows we are right. He will never admit it of course. He can't even admit it to himself. But he knows. He knows.

You are not right. And It's you getting flustered and upset. I always knew that if we voted for Brexit, the EU and all its coat-tail hangers-on (the national politicians, the eurocrats, the pro-Europe business coterie, the mainstream individual-dominated/owned media) would fight a dirty, vicious war to discredit every aspect of Brexit. It's happening, the dirty war, and you're lapping it up, revelling in it: pointing out I told you so, I told you so! Well we already knew you'd be throwing your toys out of the pram, and blowing up the pram, and then concocting evidence that it was Brexiteers all along who blew up the pram, and have plans to crush the nursery.

[BWFC_Insane]

So the rumoured plan for the Irish border has been described as "mad" by a DUP MP. The DUP have said they can't accept it.

And still no agreement on the initial, supposedly easiest part of the process (which many Brexiteers said would all be done and dusted and simple within a few months since we held all the cards).

All going well then Theresa....

Heaven knows what happens when we actually get round to discussing trade......

[BWFC_Insane]

One of the perennial defenders of our shambolic government is going to have to explain to me, how May has gone into a day of negotiations that is supposed to finally, finally get the easiest first tiniest part of the Brexit deal over the line without first clearing the details with her coalition partners (and possibly not even her Brexit committee and cabinet)?

It strikes me that she was so desperate to do a deal she was just trying anything on.

Vote of no confidence is in order for me after this shambles. We're absolute laughing stocks.

[Hoboh]

One of the perennial defenders of our shambolic government is going to have to explain to me, how May has gone into a day of negotiations that is supposed to finally, finally get the easiest first tiniest part of the Brexit deal over the line without first clearing the details with her coalition partners (and possibly not even her Brexit committee and cabinet)?

It strikes me that she was so desperate to do a deal she was just trying anything on.

Vote of no confidence is in order for me after this shambles. We're absolute laughing stocks.

Actually, you are quite wrong in that statement, I have just spent a week in a hotel and the British were in a minority of less than 10% the remaining population was made up of Germans, Danes, Swedes a few Norwegians, Finish and the odd Dutch couples.
No, the subject of Brexit was not instigated by me, far from it, I was enjoying my holiday but it was brought up by a Dane whilst around 15-20 of us were sat blundering through conversation in different languages (as an aside I found it amusing they all opted to converse in English to cross the language barriers ).

Laughing stock? No, they are appalled and distressed we chose to leave the EU, most citing trade and defence as the main areas of concern and the fact they love the Brits, lol. Virtually to a person they said they understood our objection to free movement and yes you've guessed it, they did not like movement of unskilled former Eastern block countries, most adding the addition of Albania and others is ridiculous.
The Germans are worried about trade and the prospect of paying out even more money to prop up the EU, when as one put it, " We are doing good now and not poor but we have many problems in Germany that will cost many Euro's in the future, we cannot keep supporting the Greeks and everyone else if our trade is hit, it will be a disaster".
Putin seems to genuinely worry a fair few of them, we must remember "there is no sea for his tanks to cross".
They too have a dislike for the 'appointed EU officials' (nearly wet myself the way one Danish lady described Juncker and Shultz) their opinion is these people are not helping anything.
Oh and get this, to a person they all blamed the French because of their history with the English for the problems.
Of course because this was not written by Marx or McDonnell or a momentum thug I suppose some will dismiss it as fantasy, I was there and part of it so I don't give a flying fig what the history changers think.

[BWFC_Insane]

One of the perennial defenders of our shambolic government is going to have to explain to me, how May has gone into a day of negotiations that is supposed to finally, finally get the easiest first tiniest part of the Brexit deal over the line without first clearing the details with her coalition partners (and possibly not even her Brexit committee and cabinet)?

It strikes me that she was so desperate to do a deal she was just trying anything on.

Vote of no confidence is in order for me after this shambles. We're absolute laughing stocks.

Actually, you are quite wrong in that statement, I have just spent a week in a hotel and the British were in a minority of less than 10% the remaining population was made up of Germans, Danes, Swedes a few Norwegians, Finish and the odd Dutch couples.
No, the subject of Brexit was not instigated by me, far from it, I was enjoying my holiday but it was brought up by a Dane whilst around 15-20 of us were sat blundering through conversation in different languages (as an aside I found it amusing they all opted to converse in English to cross the language barriers ).

Laughing stock? No, they are appalled and distressed we chose to leave the EU, most citing trade and defence as the main areas of concern and the fact they love the Brits, lol. Virtually to a person they said they understood our objection to free movement and yes you've guessed it, they did not like movement of unskilled former Eastern block countries, most adding the addition of Albania and others is ridiculous.
The Germans are worried about trade and the prospect of paying out even more money to prop up the EU, when as one put it, " We are doing good now and not poor but we have many problems in Germany that will cost many Euro's in the future, we cannot keep supporting the Greeks and everyone else if our trade is hit, it will be a disaster".
Putin seems to genuinely worry a fair few of them, we must remember "there is no sea for his tanks to cross".
They too have a dislike for the 'appointed EU officials' (nearly wet myself the way one Danish lady described Juncker and Shultz) their opinion is these people are not helping anything.
Oh and get this, to a person they all blamed the French because of their history with the English for the problems.
Of course because this was not written by Marx or McDonnell or a momentum thug I suppose some will dismiss it as fantasy, I was there and part of it so I don't give a flying fig what the history changers think.

I meant politically we are laughing stocks. We're making an embarrassing mess of this. You surely cannot argue we're not?

The point is that we could have stayed in the EU and likely affected changes over time. By leaving we probably will have to accept some freedom of movement to secure appropriate trade deals...we may even end up accepting the same freedoms that exist now. Watch this space. May is having to accept everything else so far as our position in this negotiation is incredibly weak.

[boltonboris]

The point is that we could have stayed in the EU and likely affected changes over time.

Have you met the EU?

[BWFC_Insane]

The point is that we could have stayed in the EU and likely affected changes over time.

Have you met the EU?

The power in the EU lies in its states. Not in temporary administrators. If we'd worked properly with other nations in the EU and put enough pressure on we could have without any doubt affected a lot of change.

Instead like everything else, we go it alone, put people's backs up and act like we are throwing our weight around. It fails and then we find out we didn't have much weight anyway.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

The point is that we could have stayed in the EU and likely affected changes over time.

Have you met the EU?

It has happened previously, but generally give us what we want or we'll piss off with our ball will elicit the response Cameron got. Don't blame them as our response to any other country trying to dictate to us (except US for some reason) is to feck off cos we won the war/world cup/biggest empire contest.

[Harry Genshaw]

At what point does the deal get so bad it's better to walk away with no deal? Bearing in mind all sides in the UK have decided we're leaving so ignoring the referendum result is not apparently an option

[BWFC_Insane]

At what point does the deal get so bad it's better to walk away with no deal? Bearing in mind all sides in the UK have decided we're leaving so ignoring the referendum result is not apparently an option

Its abundantly clear that inspite of the rhetoric from hard right Brexiteers that anyone who has done even the smallest piece of actual analysis has come to the conclusion that no deal isn't an option, especially for a politically weak government clinging on by its fingernails.

[Harry Genshaw]

At what point does the deal get so bad it's better to walk away with no deal? Bearing in mind all sides in the UK have decided we're leaving so ignoring the referendum result is not apparently an option

Its abundantly clear that inspite of the rhetoric from hard right Brexiteers that anyone who has done even the smallest piece of actual analysis has come to the conclusion that no deal isn't an option, especially for a politically weak government clinging on by its fingernails.

Genuine question. What do you think is May's / the Govts best option then?

[BWFC_Insane]

At what point does the deal get so bad it's better to walk away with no deal? Bearing in mind all sides in the UK have decided we're leaving so ignoring the referendum result is not apparently an option

Its abundantly clear that inspite of the rhetoric from hard right Brexiteers that anyone who has done even the smallest piece of actual analysis has come to the conclusion that no deal isn't an option, especially for a politically weak government clinging on by its fingernails.

Genuine question. What do you think is May's / the Govts best option then?

Now? Hope and pray.

At the start of the process...do your research, understand what we have to offer, go into negotiations looking for a deal and co-operation rather than throwing useless and empty threats around and weakening our position further. Consider opportunity to stay in the customs union and free market (do what is best for the country NOT your own scrawny political necks) - fight the extreme right in your own party and crush them. Properly prepare and don't waste time with a totally unnecessary election that leaves you with no political leverage and leads to total and utter humiliation as witnessed yesterday that offers the EU even further strength when it comes to the actual real meat of the talks next year.

Early on I had hope that May being a remainer (in theory) would work to co-operate with the EU and not make this an adversarial process. Sadly in failing to do that and failing to properly prepare she's created an unholy mess.

The best thing she can do now for the country is negotiate a deal as best she and her minions can then put it to the electorate. With all the facts in there. If people still want to leave, then fine, but at least the full facts and situation is laid bare.

Note, best thing for the country. And for once I think it would be a criminal act for her to act in her party's interest over the country's. On an issue as significant as this.

[boltonboris]

Change of subject

I see Momentum, is pursuing a cull of Labour MP's based on a "loyalty test" to Supreme Leader Corbyn. They 'recommend' (see: will see it enforced) that those who do not take part in the Test, will see any future funding of their campaigns stopped by the party.

What are the fvck are these guys upto? Are any of you labour voters worried about this lot?

[boltonboris]

It's like a futuristic, totalitarian film script!

[Lost Leopard Spot]

^
I've given up all hope for the Labour party since Corbyn and the pro-Palestine anti-Israel mob have taken power.

[boltonboris]

#ForTheManyNotTheJew

[Lost Leopard Spot]

#ForTheManyNotTheJew

Indeed... you may or may not be joking (I can't tell), but Jeremy Corbyn is more Iosif Dzugashvili than Josip Broz.

[BWFC_Insane]

^
I've given up all hope for the Labour party since Corbyn and the pro-Palestine anti-Israel mob have taken power.

What makes me laugh is we have the president of the US dangerously stoking up Islamophobia via his social media. Using faked videos.

Yet Corbyn, who I think anyone would be really hard pushed to make the case that he doesn't want peace and harmony in all regions, gets flak. I mean Corbyn has said some stupid things. But anyone who thinks he genuinely wants to stoke up anti-semiitism in the way Trump is islamophobia wants their bumps feeling.

Though I have a funny feeling, that you will fall into this category. So in advance, I'll say, I respectfully and wholeheartedly agree.