The Politics Thread

[Lost Leopard Spot]

All politicians, and political parties in this country, presently, are wank useless tosspots who don't actually promote the ideals they believe in - if they did nobody would vote.
Democracy is a busted flush. It just happens to be better than Autocracy, or Gerontocracy, or Plutocracy, or all the other ...ocracy's. But only just. And Jeremy fxcking Corbyn is a prime factor in the race to the bottom. The man is poisonous. I'm 62 years old, and always thought that at least Britain led the world in government, even if we weren't as good in the other things I believed in when I was a twenty year old. But I'll tell you this, and I mean it: If Corbyn gets in as PM I think there will be warfare on the streets before I die, and I don't mean riots, I mean guns.

[Harry Genshaw]

^ you've lost it fella!

I realise he's not everyone's cup of tea but he's the best of a very poor bunch around at the moment. Warfare on the streets if he gets in? Do you work for the daily mail?!

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

It's less Corbyn I'm worried about and more John McDonnell. He's the dangerous one, Corbyn and Diane are mainly just incompetent. The sooner folk stop voting for the same 2 parties the sooner we'll get some change.

[malcd1]

It's less Corbyn I'm worried about and more John McDonnell. He's the dangerous one, Corbyn and Diane are mainly just incompetent. The sooner folk stop voting for the same 2 parties the sooner we'll get some change.

This where I am. Corbyn is a puppet being controlled from behind. McDonnell, is the dangerous one. Well him, Momentum and the unions.

They are so anti-large company the country will be on its knees within 12 months if these idiots get in power. Unemployment and recession will be inevitable.

[BWFC_Insane]

It's less Corbyn I'm worried about and more John McDonnell. He's the dangerous one, Corbyn and Diane are mainly just incompetent. The sooner folk stop voting for the same 2 parties the sooner we'll get some change.

This where I am. Corbyn is a puppet being controlled from behind. McDonnell, is the dangerous one. Well him, Momentum and the unions.

They are so anti-large company the country will be on its knees within 12 months if these idiots get in power. Unemployment and recession will be inevitable.

Nonsense. We've had over 30 years of being dictated to by large corporations. Its left us in a total state. We've got examples continually of how we're being shafted. Its high time we put society of corporation. People over profit. Its massively, massively overdue.

Brexit was a vote for the end of globalisation and neoliberalism. I don't agree with it, but thats what it is. It was a non-business friendly vote.

Corbyn's Scandinavian brand of social democracy won't bring the country to its knees. It may piss off some fat cats, but frankly, when the banks have screwed us royally for decades, its about bloody time.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

The difference is that Scandinavia is a high wage, high tax economy and can afford it's social policies. On the other hand we're a short termist low wage, stealth tax economy that prefers to invest in nuclear weapons and privatisation than the well being and long term future of our country. We need politicians that are pragmatic and seek to work for all of the country, rather than just for the rich or poor. Labour's plans will screw the middle earners and do little to tackle the rich, whilst the Tories screw everyone but the rich.

[BWFC_Insane]

The difference is that Scandinavia is a high wage, high tax economy and can afford it's social policies. On the other hand we're a short termist low wage, stealth tax economy that prefers to invest in nuclear weapons and privatisation than the well being and long term future of our country. We need politicians that are pragmatic and seek to work for all of the country, rather than just for the rich or poor. Labour's plans will screw the middle earners and do little to tackle the rich, whilst the Tories screw everyone but the rich.

Indeed. But we should be aiming for Scandinavia. My god we should be.

Also think its too simplistic to say they'll screw middle earners. Having a properly funded NHS benefits everyone. As does investing in new industries and moving our economy away from being dominated by financial services located in London.

Ideally we'd have a pragmatic centre left option willing to do this, whilst also protecting the vulnerable in our society and halting the ever widening gaps in society.

We don't and that sucks. I do think we're long overdue some socialism to redress the balance right now.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

The difference is that Scandinavia is a high wage, high tax economy and can afford it's social policies. On the other hand we're a short termist low wage, stealth tax economy that prefers to invest in nuclear weapons and privatisation than the well being and long term future of our country. We need politicians that are pragmatic and seek to work for all of the country, rather than just for the rich or poor. Labour's plans will screw the middle earners and do little to tackle the rich, whilst the Tories screw everyone but the rich.

Indeed. But we should be aiming for Scandinavia. My god we should be.

Also think its too simplistic to say they'll screw middle earners. Having a properly funded NHS benefits everyone. As does investing in new industries and moving our economy away from being dominated by financial services located in London.

Ideally we'd have a pragmatic centre left option willing to do this, whilst also protecting the vulnerable in our society and halting the ever widening gaps in society.

We don't and that sucks. I do think we're long overdue some socialism to redress the balance right now.

The problem is that McDonnell thinks that a high earner is someone on 85k plus. Now I know that might seem a lot of money to many people, but it's not when you consider that the inequality really is about people that earn more than that for just farting. Tax should be fair to everyone and it tends to screw the people in the middle the most - not rich enough for all the fancy accountants and their schemes. Often these are the people that have to make a lot of sacrifices in order to make that salary, and whilst that is their choice, it doesn't mean they should pay disproportionately more than everyone else.

I agree that we should look to take the best bits of the Scandinavian model and ensure everyone has access to a good basic level of living, but not to the point of making it a lifestyle choice. I want everyone to have access to a good education, healthcare and housing. It's then up to them what they do with it.

[BWFC_Insane]

The difference is that Scandinavia is a high wage, high tax economy and can afford it's social policies. On the other hand we're a short termist low wage, stealth tax economy that prefers to invest in nuclear weapons and privatisation than the well being and long term future of our country. We need politicians that are pragmatic and seek to work for all of the country, rather than just for the rich or poor. Labour's plans will screw the middle earners and do little to tackle the rich, whilst the Tories screw everyone but the rich.

Indeed. But we should be aiming for Scandinavia. My god we should be.

Also think its too simplistic to say they'll screw middle earners. Having a properly funded NHS benefits everyone. As does investing in new industries and moving our economy away from being dominated by financial services located in London.

Ideally we'd have a pragmatic centre left option willing to do this, whilst also protecting the vulnerable in our society and halting the ever widening gaps in society.

We don't and that sucks. I do think we're long overdue some socialism to redress the balance right now.

The problem is that McDonnell thinks that a high earner is someone on 85k plus. Now I know that might seem a lot of money to many people, but it's not when you consider that the inequality really is about people that earn more than that for just farting. Tax should be fair to everyone and it tends to screw the people in the middle the most - not rich enough for all the fancy accountants and their schemes. Often these are the people that have to make a lot of sacrifices in order to make that salary, and whilst that is their choice, it doesn't mean they should pay disproportionately more than everyone else.

I agree that we should look to take the best bits of the Scandinavian model and ensure everyone has access to a good basic level of living, but not to the point of making it a lifestyle choice. I want everyone to have access to a good education, healthcare and housing. It's then up to them what they do with it.

45p tax on 80K is hardly some radical hike though. This is where the exaggeration comes in.

Frankly if I earned in excess of £80K I'd be more than happy to pay the 45p rate. In fact I'd be happy on my salary that is a bit below that to do so.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

The difference is that Scandinavia is a high wage, high tax economy and can afford it's social policies. On the other hand we're a short termist low wage, stealth tax economy that prefers to invest in nuclear weapons and privatisation than the well being and long term future of our country. We need politicians that are pragmatic and seek to work for all of the country, rather than just for the rich or poor. Labour's plans will screw the middle earners and do little to tackle the rich, whilst the Tories screw everyone but the rich.

Indeed. But we should be aiming for Scandinavia. My god we should be.

Also think its too simplistic to say they'll screw middle earners. Having a properly funded NHS benefits everyone. As does investing in new industries and moving our economy away from being dominated by financial services located in London.

Ideally we'd have a pragmatic centre left option willing to do this, whilst also protecting the vulnerable in our society and halting the ever widening gaps in society.

We don't and that sucks. I do think we're long overdue some socialism to redress the balance right now.

The problem is that McDonnell thinks that a high earner is someone on 85k plus. Now I know that might seem a lot of money to many people, but it's not when you consider that the inequality really is about people that earn more than that for just farting. Tax should be fair to everyone and it tends to screw the people in the middle the most - not rich enough for all the fancy accountants and their schemes. Often these are the people that have to make a lot of sacrifices in order to make that salary, and whilst that is their choice, it doesn't mean they should pay disproportionately more than everyone else.

I agree that we should look to take the best bits of the Scandinavian model and ensure everyone has access to a good basic level of living, but not to the point of making it a lifestyle choice. I want everyone to have access to a good education, healthcare and housing. It's then up to them what they do with it.

45p tax on 80K is hardly some radical hike though. This is where the exaggeration comes in.

Frankly if I earned in excess of £80K I'd be more than happy to pay the 45p rate. In fact I'd be happy on my salary that is a bit below that to do so.

The point is that the person on 80k is already paying a lot of tax in proportion to their income. The person earning a couple of million is paying proportionately a lot less in many cases, yet can afford to buy somewhere reasonable to live in say London, where as 80k person can afford a shoe box in outer Mongolia Essex. What needs to be done is to build a proper economy where people earn a proper wage and therefore pay more tax, along with proper taxation for the highest earners.

[BWFC_Insane]

The difference is that Scandinavia is a high wage, high tax economy and can afford it's social policies. On the other hand we're a short termist low wage, stealth tax economy that prefers to invest in nuclear weapons and privatisation than the well being and long term future of our country. We need politicians that are pragmatic and seek to work for all of the country, rather than just for the rich or poor. Labour's plans will screw the middle earners and do little to tackle the rich, whilst the Tories screw everyone but the rich.

Indeed. But we should be aiming for Scandinavia. My god we should be.

Also think its too simplistic to say they'll screw middle earners. Having a properly funded NHS benefits everyone. As does investing in new industries and moving our economy away from being dominated by financial services located in London.

Ideally we'd have a pragmatic centre left option willing to do this, whilst also protecting the vulnerable in our society and halting the ever widening gaps in society.

We don't and that sucks. I do think we're long overdue some socialism to redress the balance right now.

The problem is that McDonnell thinks that a high earner is someone on 85k plus. Now I know that might seem a lot of money to many people, but it's not when you consider that the inequality really is about people that earn more than that for just farting. Tax should be fair to everyone and it tends to screw the people in the middle the most - not rich enough for all the fancy accountants and their schemes. Often these are the people that have to make a lot of sacrifices in order to make that salary, and whilst that is their choice, it doesn't mean they should pay disproportionately more than everyone else.

I agree that we should look to take the best bits of the Scandinavian model and ensure everyone has access to a good basic level of living, but not to the point of making it a lifestyle choice. I want everyone to have access to a good education, healthcare and housing. It's then up to them what they do with it.

45p tax on 80K is hardly some radical hike though. This is where the exaggeration comes in.

Frankly if I earned in excess of £80K I'd be more than happy to pay the 45p rate. In fact I'd be happy on my salary that is a bit below that to do so.

The point is that the person on 80k is already paying a lot of tax in proportion to their income. The person earning a couple of million is paying proportionately a lot less in many cases, yet can afford to buy somewhere reasonable to live in say London, where as 80k person can afford a shoe box in outer Mongolia Essex. What needs to be done is to build a proper economy where people earn a proper wage and therefore pay more tax, along with proper taxation for the highest earners.

Sorry but adding 5p in the pound on earnings above £80K in no way is crippling. And £80K can only be described as a very, very, very healthy wage. Its almost 4* the average wage in the UK.

You can only really tackle house prices by building more houses.

We also desperately need to make our country and economy far less London centric, take some demand out of the system.

[Harry Genshaw]

I don't see how an increase in tax on folk earning over £80k a year is 'squeezing the middle'. I accept it's not rich by today's standards but it's 2 & a half times the average wage. The last large company I worked for with over 200 employees, only the ceo earned in excess of that

[BWFC_Insane]

I don't see how an increase in tax on folk earning over £80k a year is 'squeezing the middle'. I accept it's not rich by today's standards but it's 2 & a half times the average wage. The last large company I worked for with over 200 employees, only the ceo earned in excess of that

Indeed. And the increase is only on earnings over £80K so wouldn't affect people massively on or around that amount.

Seems ridiculous to me that anyone would complain about that when there are people on minimum wage zero hours contracts getting by.

I know this is 7 years old. But still it shows anyone suggesting £80K is anything approaching the "middle" is massively out of touch with reality.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

I don't see how an increase in tax on folk earning over £80k a year is 'squeezing the middle'. I accept it's not rich by today's standards but it's 2 & a half times the average wage. The last large company I worked for with over 200 employees, only the ceo earned in excess of that

Wouldn't it be fairer to go after the genuinely rich folk that are paying effective tax rates that are a fraction of what you or I pay? Could we not fund our services through that, knowing that Boris has crashed the bus? Could we not work with the EU and others to stop large globals from taking the piss? Nah, lets just tax the fcuk out of people working hard on a decent but not excessive salary.

[BWFC_Insane]

I don't see how an increase in tax on folk earning over £80k a year is 'squeezing the middle'. I accept it's not rich by today's standards but it's 2 & a half times the average wage. The last large company I worked for with over 200 employees, only the ceo earned in excess of that

Wouldn't it be fairer to go after the genuinely rich folk that are paying effective tax rates that are a fraction of what you or I pay? Could we not fund our services through that, knowing that Boris has crashed the bus? Could we not work with the EU and others to stop large globals from taking the piss? Nah, lets just tax the fcuk out of people working hard on a decent but not excessive salary.

Are you saying that earnings over £80K don't make you "genuinely rich". Or is it a case of nimbyism going on here? Compared to the average wage £80K (and you only pay the 5% extra on anything above that) is by just about any standard rich.

Everyone who works, works hard for their money. In fact although I earn considerably more than any nurse, they work a damn sight harder in far tougher conditions than I do.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

A nice chart that takes nothing of the cost of living for someone earning 80k in London. Have you seen how much it costs to live in a half decent 2 bedroom flat within reasonable commuting distance? Why should someone be penalised for working hard, probably sacrificing a lot to earn a better salary? We should all pay the same rate of tax, with the tax free portion set at a rate to ensure that minimum and low wage folk don't suffer.

The way to improve tax revenues is to encourage sustainable growth and raise everybody up the wage ladder. Make richer folk pay the same rate of tax as the rest of us. Make corporation tax based on reality rather than allow them to dodge it altogether.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

I don't see how an increase in tax on folk earning over £80k a year is 'squeezing the middle'. I accept it's not rich by today's standards but it's 2 & a half times the average wage. The last large company I worked for with over 200 employees, only the ceo earned in excess of that

Wouldn't it be fairer to go after the genuinely rich folk that are paying effective tax rates that are a fraction of what you or I pay? Could we not fund our services through that, knowing that Boris has crashed the bus? Could we not work with the EU and others to stop large globals from taking the piss? Nah, lets just tax the fcuk out of people working hard on a decent but not excessive salary.

Are you saying that earnings over £80K don't make you "genuinely rich". Or is it a case of nimbyism going on here? Compared to the average wage £80K (and you only pay the 5% extra on anything above that) is by just about any standard rich.

Everyone who works, works hard for their money. In fact although I earn considerably more than any nurse, they work a damn sight harder in far tougher conditions than I do.

Why should anyone pay a greater proportion than someone else? Even at the same rate someone who earns more pays more. Why should the pay more again? You try telling someone living in London earning 80k that they are rich. Unless they were able to buy years ago they're probably more broke than someone earning 40k in Bolton.

[BWFC_Insane]

I don't see how an increase in tax on folk earning over £80k a year is 'squeezing the middle'. I accept it's not rich by today's standards but it's 2 & a half times the average wage. The last large company I worked for with over 200 employees, only the ceo earned in excess of that

Wouldn't it be fairer to go after the genuinely rich folk that are paying effective tax rates that are a fraction of what you or I pay? Could we not fund our services through that, knowing that Boris has crashed the bus? Could we not work with the EU and others to stop large globals from taking the piss? Nah, lets just tax the fcuk out of people working hard on a decent but not excessive salary.

Are you saying that earnings over £80K don't make you "genuinely rich". Or is it a case of nimbyism going on here? Compared to the average wage £80K (and you only pay the 5% extra on anything above that) is by just about any standard rich.

Everyone who works, works hard for their money. In fact although I earn considerably more than any nurse, they work a damn sight harder in far tougher conditions than I do.

Why should anyone pay a greater proportion than someone else? Even at the same rate someone who earns more pays more. Why should the pay more again? You try telling someone living in London earning 80k that they are rich. Unless they were able to buy years ago they're probably more broke than someone earning 40k in Bolton.

So essentially you are a Conservative. I have no issue with that. I fundamentally disagree though. If we want to redress the balances in our society and improve our public services, progressive taxation is critical.

The London argument falls down when you consider that many, many, (the majority) aren't earning £80K in London and the majority of jobs have a "London surplus" anyway. But even then my whole point is to shift the economy away from London.

There are many parts of the country where you may struggle to afford the house you want on a salary of £80K. It still doesn't make it unreasonable to demand that the top 5% pays a small (and we're talking small here) proportion of tax extra IMHO. For the very reason that we cannot fund our public services as is. And the burden cannot be increased on the poor, because simply the gap between that top 5% and the rest is ever growing.

And I'll happily tell anyone earning £80K who says they aren't well off, to get a grip and go and do some charity work, then re-appraise their lives.

[Harry Genshaw]

I don't see how an increase in tax on folk earning over £80k a year is 'squeezing the middle'. I accept it's not rich by today's standards but it's 2 & a half times the average wage. The last large company I worked for with over 200 employees, only the ceo earned in excess of that

Wouldn't it be fairer to go after the genuinely rich folk that are paying effective tax rates that are a fraction of what you or I pay? Could we not fund our services through that, knowing that Boris has crashed the bus? Could we not work with the EU and others to stop large globals from taking the piss? Nah, lets just tax the fcuk out of people working hard on a decent but not excessive salary.

No argument from me there pal. It's to the Tories credit that large companies like Amazon and Google are finally paying some of their share. There's been plenty arguing that approach to be 'anti business ' but when they're raking in billions whilst denying basic workers rights to their staff it's more anti humanitarian!

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

So essentially you are a Conservative. I have no issue with that. I fundamentally disagree though. If we want to redress the balances in our society and improve our public services, progressive taxation is critical.

The London argument falls down when you consider that many, many, (the majority) aren't earning £80K in London and the majority of jobs have a "London surplus" anyway. But even then my whole point is to shift the economy away from London.

There are many parts of the country where you may struggle to afford the house you want on a salary of £80K. It still doesn't make it unreasonable to demand that the top 5% pays a small (and we're talking small here) proportion of tax extra IMHO. For the very reason that we cannot fund our public services as is. And the burden cannot be increased on the poor, because simply the gap between that top 5% and the rest is ever growing.

And I'll happily tell anyone earning £80K who says they aren't well off, to get a grip and go and do some charity work, then re-appraise their lives.

You are very far off the mark. I've never supported the Tories in my life and without a radical rethink in their policies and ideology I never will. I'm not one political party or the other as that is what keeps the status quo. Folk would vote for a blue or a red rosette on a donkey with little to no thought about what they really are voting for. The last 2 elections I voted for the Greens for all the good it did.

I'm not asking for the poor to pay more, I'm asking for a radical rethink as to how do things. Current politics is just being pitched a battle between rich and poor and old vs young. This is divisive and wrong.

For me taxation should be fair to all. There should be one standard rate and it should kick in much higher up the wage ladder to ensure the lowest paid are not punished in any way. But the difference is that everybody pays it at the same rate for every penny they earn over the kick in amount. No ifs, no buts and no loopholes. The exact percentages and where it kicks in should be based on need. Multi-nationals should be paying the same rates of tax as every other business, no loopholes, no ifs no buts. This is fair. The more you earn/make, the more you pay.

The next step is to simplify tax. More simple tax less accountancy cons and loopholes to be exploited. Do away with NI and have a simple income based tax set at a rate to support the services we want. Invest in the future with proper training for future jobs and drag the lower earners up rather than government subsidise low wages, meaning more tax revenue and less benefits. Tax credits was a noble idea to support low wage earners, but it's simply become a subsidy to business.

As for earning 80k, I have never said someone earning that was not well off, so stop making shit up to make an argument. Simply that 80k is not as much as it might seem if you have to live somewhere like London where an equivalent flat/house in a similar type of area is multiples of that say in Bolton.