The Politics Thread

[BWFC_Insane]

Nice to see the Republicans lose control of the house. Lets see Trump's tax affairs now.....

[Hoboh]

Nice to see the Republicans lose control of the house. Lets see Trump's tax affairs now.....

Nice to see all those who said Trump would get a right drubbing with egg on their faces again.

Mid term, mass unrest, worst President ever or supposedly so according to lefty dipshits, democrats going to annihilate him, mmm something didn't quite go according to the liberal luvvies handbook did it?

Actually on reflection I wouldn't mind another EU referendum to shut the F*** up the remoaning idiots because no one I know who went out first time has changed their mind and the way the EU has been negotiating has peed off some of those who were in the remain camp

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Nice to see the Republicans lose control of the house. Lets see Trump's tax affairs now.....

Nice to see all those who said Trump would get a right drubbing with egg on their faces again.

Mid term, mass unrest, worst President ever or supposedly so according to lefty dipshits, democrats going to annihilate him, mmm something didn't quite go according to the liberal luvvies handbook did it?

Actually on reflection I wouldn't mind another EU referendum to shut the F*** up the remoaning idiots because no one I know who went out first time has changed their mind and the way the EU has been negotiating has peed off some of those who were in the remain camp

About the only time I've written to my MP was over the recent Tory retrenchment towards a pseudo-exit. My MP, Patrick McLoughin, made it quite clear he doesn't believe that Brecit means Brexit and will be fighting to his last breath to reverse the decision.
So fxck them. Yes I'm up for another referendum: Stay with the EU v No Deal Brexit March 19th, end of. Trouble is it'd take the tosspots more than a year to organise said second referendum, during which time we'll be sold down the fxcking river with a bullshit deal on the backstop to the backstop and us shell in out extra billions on top of the 40 billion we shouldn't even be paying.

[Montreal Wanderer]

Nice to see the Republicans lose control of the house. Lets see Trump's tax affairs now.....

Nice to see all those who said Trump would get a right drubbing with egg on their faces again.

Mid term, mass unrest, worst President ever or supposedly so according to lefty dipshits, democrats going to annihilate him, mmm something didn't quite go according to the liberal luvvies handbook did it?

Actually on reflection I wouldn't mind another EU referendum to shut the F*** up the remoaning idiots because no one I know who went out first time has changed their mind and the way the EU has been negotiating has peed off some of those who were in the remain camp

Actually he did get a drubbing, Hobes. It's a complicated system but only one third of senators are up for election, while all member of the House are voted for. It so happened this year the majority of senators running for re-election were Democrats, many running in what we now call "red" states or "Trump" states since 2016. So the Senate election was limited and did not see any major shift of voting patterns compared with the 2016 election (don't forget all these Senators were elected in 2012 under Obama). Basically Republicans held on to the ground they held in 2016, which meant more Senate seats. The House election on the other hand was nation-wide and showed a major change in voting patterns over 2016 - a major reaction against Trump. This may be why Trump fired his Attorney-General today. It is now the major topic of conversation, so Trump has deflected attention from his mid-term House defeats. Clever man in some ways.

[BWFC_Insane]

Nice to see the Republicans lose control of the house. Lets see Trump's tax affairs now.....

Nice to see all those who said Trump would get a right drubbing with egg on their faces again.

Mid term, mass unrest, worst President ever or supposedly so according to lefty dipshits, democrats going to annihilate him, mmm something didn't quite go according to the liberal luvvies handbook did it?

Actually on reflection I wouldn't mind another EU referendum to shut the F*** up the remoaning idiots because no one I know who went out first time has changed their mind and the way the EU has been negotiating has peed off some of those who were in the remain camp

Republicans took a bit of a hammering in the key rustbelt states. The ones Trump would need to win next time. It wasn't a good night for him inspite of his nonsensical ramblings - which show he was clearly a bit upset by it all.

It could have been worse but the senate was always a red herring as Monty has explained.

I certainly wouldn't rule out a second Trump term as disastrous as that would be. He appeals to the 6-toed racists of rural America enough that no matter how many lies he tells they'll still vote for him in droves. It has to be droves otherwise they get lost without their shared braincell.

[Harry Genshaw]

Actually on reflection I wouldn't mind another EU referendum to shut the F*** up the remoaning idiots because no one I know who went out first time has changed their mind and the way the EU has been negotiating has peed off some of those who were in the remain camp

I know you don't know me but I think I'd be inclined to change my vote from out to in, in a 2nd referendum.

I'm unhappy at the way the EU have negotiated and the recent situation re the budget in Italy has confirmed some of my original misgivings about the EU however;

I don't trust any of the current lot to negotiate a good exit. I had no idea how difficult it would be to extract ourselves from some of the legislative processes and personally, I'd never considered the question of the Irish border.

Let's face it, the whole thing has been a cluster feck and there's something very British about us apologising, saying we've made a mistake and asking if we can stay after all

[dave the minion]

I don't trust any of the current lot to negotiate a good exit. I had no idea how difficult it would be to extract ourselves from some of the legislative processes and personally, I'd never considered the question of the Irish border.

Hence why we're in the mess we're in now.

I mean - nothing personal - but the reason we are leaving the EU is exactly because of a substantial population of people in a similar position to you voting to leave without giving thought to exactly the problems we are seeing.

This is why the referendum was flawed from the off. Many people jumped on the bandwagon about immigration, laws, NHS funding etc etc and went out and screwed things up for the next generation by voting out, without having the slightest understanding or appreciation of the implications of an out vote when we got into the nitty-gritty of the detail.

I agree with you in that I don't trust the current lot to get us a good exit, but I don't trust any other lot either - its a fiendishly complex environment and one which the remaining EU is hardly likely to give us concessions on now we've spoiled the party. Its an absolutely thankless task and quite frankly, every conceivable outcome they manage to achieve is worse than it would have been if we'd stayed.

The fact that half the people who are now whingeing about the detail are the very ones who voted to get us into this mess without stopping to understand exactly what they were voting for in the first place absolutely beggars belief!!

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I don't trust any of the current lot to negotiate a good exit. I had no idea how difficult it would be to extract ourselves from some of the legislative processes and personally, I'd never considered the question of the Irish border.

Hence why we're in the mess we're in now.

I mean - nothing personal - but the reason we are leaving the EU is exactly because of a substantial population of people in a similar position to you voting to leave without giving thought to exactly the problems we are seeing.

This is why the referendum was flawed from the off. Many people jumped on the bandwagon about immigration, laws, NHS funding etc etc and went out and screwed things up for the next generation by voting out, without having the slightest understanding or appreciation of the implications of an out vote when we got into the nitty-gritty of the detail.

I agree with you in that I don't trust the current lot to get us a good exit, but I don't trust any other lot either - its a fiendishly complex environment and one which the remaining EU is hardly likely to give us concessions on now we've spoiled the party. Its an absolutely thankless task and quite frankly, every conceivable outcome they manage to achieve is worse than it would have been if we'd stayed.

The fact that half the people who are now whingeing about the detail are the very ones who voted to get us into this mess without stopping to understand exactly what they were voting for in the first place absolutely beggars belief!!

And you, sir, are the very sort of idiot that you accuse others of being. Of course it's complex, and there are literally thousands of strands to each argument of whether staying or leaving is beneficial... but you, in your wisdom can balance all of these things out, consider the pros and cons of each of the strands, and arrive at a constructive, logical, and inevitable conclusion: i.e. you're correct and we should stay!
Me on the other hand, I'm (according to your logical, balanced brain) an aged drooling, right-wing fascist, racist imbecile who wouldn't know an argument if I was in one and who hasn't got a clue what nuanced means and who obviously never thought through the implications.

Tit.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Nice to see the Republicans lose control of the house. Lets see Trump's tax affairs now.....

Nice to see all those who said Trump would get a right drubbing with egg on their faces again.

Mid term, mass unrest, worst President ever or supposedly so according to lefty dipshits, democrats going to annihilate him, mmm something didn't quite go according to the liberal luvvies handbook did it?

Actually on reflection I wouldn't mind another EU referendum to shut the F*** up the remoaning idiots because no one I know who went out first time has changed their mind and the way the EU has been negotiating has peed off some of those who were in the remain camp

Actually he did get a drubbing, Hobes. It's a complicated system but only one third of senators are up for election, while all member of the House are voted for. It so happened this year the majority of senators running for re-election were Democrats, many running in what we now call "red" states or "Trump" states since 2016. So the Senate election was limited and did not see any major shift of voting patterns compared with the 2016 election (don't forget all these Senators were elected in 2012 under Obama). Basically Republicans held on to the ground they held in 2016, which meant more Senate seats. The House election on the other hand was nation-wide and showed a major change in voting patterns over 2016 - a major reaction against Trump. This may be why Trump fired his Attorney-General today. It is now the major topic of conversation, so Trump has deflected attention from his mid-term House defeats. Clever man in some ways.

Sorry Monty. He did not get "a drubbing".
It was mid term when most governments (whichever flavour they are) tend to lose.
Trump actually gained 2% of the popular vote in the Senatorial contest (bolstered by men and rural voters above and beyond his original constituency). That, in nobody's terms can be described as a drubbing!. I accept that in the Representatives election he was down 6% of the popular vote (a swing precipitated by educated women and urban voters). But, the election for the House gave the Democrats a far larger potential impact than that given by the Senate election, and the 2 v 6 percentage gains in each merely shows how divided America is, it certainly does not indicate either side is capable of Drubbing the other.
What's more, turnout was a mere 49%, which hardly demonstrates an engaged electorate, and is yet another indicator of undrubbdness.

[BWFC_Insane]

Nice to see the Republicans lose control of the house. Lets see Trump's tax affairs now.....

Nice to see all those who said Trump would get a right drubbing with egg on their faces again.

Mid term, mass unrest, worst President ever or supposedly so according to lefty dipshits, democrats going to annihilate him, mmm something didn't quite go according to the liberal luvvies handbook did it?

Actually on reflection I wouldn't mind another EU referendum to shut the F*** up the remoaning idiots because no one I know who went out first time has changed their mind and the way the EU has been negotiating has peed off some of those who were in the remain camp

Actually he did get a drubbing, Hobes. It's a complicated system but only one third of senators are up for election, while all member of the House are voted for. It so happened this year the majority of senators running for re-election were Democrats, many running in what we now call "red" states or "Trump" states since 2016. So the Senate election was limited and did not see any major shift of voting patterns compared with the 2016 election (don't forget all these Senators were elected in 2012 under Obama). Basically Republicans held on to the ground they held in 2016, which meant more Senate seats. The House election on the other hand was nation-wide and showed a major change in voting patterns over 2016 - a major reaction against Trump. This may be why Trump fired his Attorney-General today. It is now the major topic of conversation, so Trump has deflected attention from his mid-term House defeats. Clever man in some ways.

Sorry Monty. He did not get "a drubbing".
It was mid term when most governments (whichever flavour they are) tend to lose.
Trump actually gained 2% of the popular vote in the Senatorial contest (bolstered by men and rural voters above and beyond his original constituency). That, in nobody's terms can be described as a drubbing!. I accept that in the Representatives election he was down 6% of the popular vote (a swing precipitated by educated women and urban voters). But, the election for the House gave the Democrats a far larger potential impact than that given by the Senate election, and the 2 v 6 percentage gains in each merely shows how divided America is, it certainly does not indicate either side is capable of Drubbing the other.
What's more, turnout was a mere 49%, which hardly demonstrates an engaged electorate, and is yet another indicator of undrubbdness.

A couple of things with this analysis.

The voter turnout was a 50 year high for mid-terms.

And the swing of house representatives away from the presidential party is the 3rd largest in the last 10 mid-term elections.

It was a bad night for Trump who as usual came out with his spin and aggression to try and deflect. I mean it certainly wasn't as bad as it could have been. But the regions contested in the senate were always going to favour Trump this time - there was no big win for him there. He can point to governor elections which generally were better for him. But if something close to the house results were replicated in a presidential election it would be over for Trump. Not saying it will be - presidential elections are entirely different. Just that overall he avoided disaster but still suffered greatly.

[Harry Genshaw]

I don't trust any of the current lot to negotiate a good exit. I had no idea how difficult it would be to extract ourselves from some of the legislative processes and personally, I'd never considered the question of the Irish border.

Hence why we're in the mess we're in now.

I mean - nothing personal - but the reason we are leaving the EU is exactly because of a substantial population of people in a similar position to you voting to leave without giving thought to exactly the problems we are seeing.

This is why the referendum was flawed from the off. Many people jumped on the bandwagon about immigration, laws, NHS funding etc etc and went out and screwed things up for the next generation by voting out, without having the slightest understanding or appreciation of the implications of an out vote when we got into the nitty-gritty of the detail.

I agree with you in that I don't trust the current lot to get us a good exit, but I don't trust any other lot either - its a fiendishly complex environment and one which the remaining EU is hardly likely to give us concessions on now we've spoiled the party. Its an absolutely thankless task and quite frankly, every conceivable outcome they manage to achieve is worse than it would have been if we'd stayed.

The fact that half the people who are now whingeing about the detail are the very ones who voted to get us into this mess without stopping to understand exactly what they were voting for in the first place absolutely beggars belief!!

No offence taken but that's largely patronising bollo*ks!

This whole narrative of those who voted leave didn't know what they were voting for but those who voted remain did, is just ridiculous.

There were politicians and economists of all political persuasions on both sides of the argument. Your ordinary man in the street couldn't be expected to know all the various pro's and cons and had to make a decision based on what they were hearing. Just like a general election.

Hardliners apart, I'm sure most voted on the basis of either - things are ok/things could be better.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Nice to see the Republicans lose control of the house. Lets see Trump's tax affairs now.....

Nice to see all those who said Trump would get a right drubbing with egg on their faces again.

Mid term, mass unrest, worst President ever or supposedly so according to lefty dipshits, democrats going to annihilate him, mmm something didn't quite go according to the liberal luvvies handbook did it?

Actually on reflection I wouldn't mind another EU referendum to shut the F*** up the remoaning idiots because no one I know who went out first time has changed their mind and the way the EU has been negotiating has peed off some of those who were in the remain camp

Actually he did get a drubbing, Hobes. It's a complicated system but only one third of senators are up for election, while all member of the House are voted for. It so happened this year the majority of senators running for re-election were Democrats, many running in what we now call "red" states or "Trump" states since 2016. So the Senate election was limited and did not see any major shift of voting patterns compared with the 2016 election (don't forget all these Senators were elected in 2012 under Obama). Basically Republicans held on to the ground they held in 2016, which meant more Senate seats. The House election on the other hand was nation-wide and showed a major change in voting patterns over 2016 - a major reaction against Trump. This may be why Trump fired his Attorney-General today. It is now the major topic of conversation, so Trump has deflected attention from his mid-term House defeats. Clever man in some ways.

Sorry Monty. He did not get "a drubbing".
It was mid term when most governments (whichever flavour they are) tend to lose.
Trump actually gained 2% of the popular vote in the Senatorial contest (bolstered by men and rural voters above and beyond his original constituency). That, in nobody's terms can be described as a drubbing!. I accept that in the Representatives election he was down 6% of the popular vote (a swing precipitated by educated women and urban voters). But, the election for the House gave the Democrats a far larger potential impact than that given by the Senate election, and the 2 v 6 percentage gains in each merely shows how divided America is, it certainly does not indicate either side is capable of Drubbing the other.
What's more, turnout was a mere 49%, which hardly demonstrates an engaged electorate, and is yet another indicator of undrubbdness.

A couple of things with this analysis.

The voter turnout was a 50 year high for mid-terms.

And the swing of house representatives away from the presidential party is the 3rd largest in the last 10 mid-term elections.

It was a bad night for Trump who as usual came out with his spin and aggression to try and deflect. I mean it certainly wasn't as bad as it could have been. But the regions contested in the senate were always going to favour Trump this time - there was no big win for him there. He can point to governor elections which generally were better for him. But if something close to the house results were replicated in a presidential election it would be over for Trump. Not saying it will be - presidential elections are entirely different. Just that overall he avoided disaster but still suffered greatly.

So, to be precise, we both agree it was not a Drubbing.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I don't trust any of the current lot to negotiate a good exit. I had no idea how difficult it would be to extract ourselves from some of the legislative processes and personally, I'd never considered the question of the Irish border.

Hence why we're in the mess we're in now.

I mean - nothing personal - but the reason we are leaving the EU is exactly because of a substantial population of people in a similar position to you voting to leave without giving thought to exactly the problems we are seeing.

This is why the referendum was flawed from the off. Many people jumped on the bandwagon about immigration, laws, NHS funding etc etc and went out and screwed things up for the next generation by voting out, without having the slightest understanding or appreciation of the implications of an out vote when we got into the nitty-gritty of the detail.

I agree with you in that I don't trust the current lot to get us a good exit, but I don't trust any other lot either - its a fiendishly complex environment and one which the remaining EU is hardly likely to give us concessions on now we've spoiled the party. Its an absolutely thankless task and quite frankly, every conceivable outcome they manage to achieve is worse than it would have been if we'd stayed.

The fact that half the people who are now whingeing about the detail are the very ones who voted to get us into this mess without stopping to understand exactly what they were voting for in the first place absolutely beggars belief!!

No offence taken but that's largely patronising bollo*ks!

This whole narrative of those who voted leave didn't know what they were voting for but those who voted remain did, is just ridiculous.

There were politicians and economists of all political persuasions on both sides of the argument. Your ordinary man in the street couldn't be expected to know all the various pro's and cons and had to make a decision based on what they were hearing. Just like a general election.

Hardliners apart, I'm sure most voted on the basis of either - things are ok/things could be better.

Yup, absolutely agree.
That is, apart from even us hardliners not being able to think things through. Being an hardliner myself I can confirm that I do have mental capacity, I can manipulate thoughts and try and achieve desired outcomes. Neither do I drool constantly.

[BWFC_Insane]

Nice to see the Republicans lose control of the house. Lets see Trump's tax affairs now.....

Nice to see all those who said Trump would get a right drubbing with egg on their faces again.

Mid term, mass unrest, worst President ever or supposedly so according to lefty dipshits, democrats going to annihilate him, mmm something didn't quite go according to the liberal luvvies handbook did it?

Actually on reflection I wouldn't mind another EU referendum to shut the F*** up the remoaning idiots because no one I know who went out first time has changed their mind and the way the EU has been negotiating has peed off some of those who were in the remain camp

Actually he did get a drubbing, Hobes. It's a complicated system but only one third of senators are up for election, while all member of the House are voted for. It so happened this year the majority of senators running for re-election were Democrats, many running in what we now call "red" states or "Trump" states since 2016. So the Senate election was limited and did not see any major shift of voting patterns compared with the 2016 election (don't forget all these Senators were elected in 2012 under Obama). Basically Republicans held on to the ground they held in 2016, which meant more Senate seats. The House election on the other hand was nation-wide and showed a major change in voting patterns over 2016 - a major reaction against Trump. This may be why Trump fired his Attorney-General today. It is now the major topic of conversation, so Trump has deflected attention from his mid-term House defeats. Clever man in some ways.

Sorry Monty. He did not get "a drubbing".
It was mid term when most governments (whichever flavour they are) tend to lose.
Trump actually gained 2% of the popular vote in the Senatorial contest (bolstered by men and rural voters above and beyond his original constituency). That, in nobody's terms can be described as a drubbing!. I accept that in the Representatives election he was down 6% of the popular vote (a swing precipitated by educated women and urban voters). But, the election for the House gave the Democrats a far larger potential impact than that given by the Senate election, and the 2 v 6 percentage gains in each merely shows how divided America is, it certainly does not indicate either side is capable of Drubbing the other.
What's more, turnout was a mere 49%, which hardly demonstrates an engaged electorate, and is yet another indicator of undrubbdness.

A couple of things with this analysis.

The voter turnout was a 50 year high for mid-terms.

And the swing of house representatives away from the presidential party is the 3rd largest in the last 10 mid-term elections.

It was a bad night for Trump who as usual came out with his spin and aggression to try and deflect. I mean it certainly wasn't as bad as it could have been. But the regions contested in the senate were always going to favour Trump this time - there was no big win for him there. He can point to governor elections which generally were better for him. But if something close to the house results were replicated in a presidential election it would be over for Trump. Not saying it will be - presidential elections are entirely different. Just that overall he avoided disaster but still suffered greatly.

So, to be precise, we both agree it was not a Drubbing.

I wouldn't call it a drubbing. A defeat though - it was.

[Montreal Wanderer]

I don't trust any of the current lot to negotiate a good exit. I had no idea how difficult it would be to extract ourselves from some of the legislative processes and personally, I'd never considered the question of the Irish border.

Hence why we're in the mess we're in now.

I mean - nothing personal - but the reason we are leaving the EU is exactly because of a substantial population of people in a similar position to you voting to leave without giving thought to exactly the problems we are seeing.

This is why the referendum was flawed from the off. Many people jumped on the bandwagon about immigration, laws, NHS funding etc etc and went out and screwed things up for the next generation by voting out, without having the slightest understanding or appreciation of the implications of an out vote when we got into the nitty-gritty of the detail.

I agree with you in that I don't trust the current lot to get us a good exit, but I don't trust any other lot either - its a fiendishly complex environment and one which the remaining EU is hardly likely to give us concessions on now we've spoiled the party. Its an absolutely thankless task and quite frankly, every conceivable outcome they manage to achieve is worse than it would have been if we'd stayed.

The fact that half the people who are now whingeing about the detail are the very ones who voted to get us into this mess without stopping to understand exactly what they were voting for in the first place absolutely beggars belief!!

No offence taken but that's largely patronising bollo*ks!

This whole narrative of those who voted leave didn't know what they were voting for but those who voted remain did, is just ridiculous.

There were politicians and economists of all political persuasions on both sides of the argument. Your ordinary man in the street couldn't be expected to know all the various pro's and cons and had to make a decision based on what they were hearing. Just like a general election.

Hardliners apart, I'm sure most voted on the basis of either - things are ok/things could be better.

I agree, Harry. The problem is that the political leaders who wanted to remain could not point to any advantages of remaining that were not already known (status quo), so could only counter Brexiters arguments and thus appear negative. The Brexit political elite posted a blue shy scenario but ultimately basically lied to the electorate, or so it seemed to me. The man in the street cannot be expected to understand the complexities of exiting, but the Brexit elite appeared to paper over the cracks with promises of financial gain (NHS) and greater security (immigration control). Did anyone mention the Irish border? The trade deals? We knew Trump favoured Brexit - that should have been a sign.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

I hope, but fear we won't, we learn from the farce and put some sort of proper mechanism in place to hold politicians and their hangers on to account for their lies. If we didn't know then, we know now that most of the claims made during the referendum were either outright lies or wishful thinking. Boris, Fox et al haven't even tried to deliver what they promised because they know it can't. May has to go down as one of the most inept senior politicians for a long time and all at a time when there is no capable opposition. Fcuking joke the lot of them. Either deliver something approximating the claims, or go back to the electorate with what you can deliver and ask if it is good enough. If not, stop the process and start again with someone pragmatic not dogmatic at the helm.

[TANGODANCER]

Politics:
The main reason the man/woman in the street is confused and gets it wrong is, that if highly paid people whose jobs are politics can't get it right, what chance the voters? Oh, we can all give opinions especially when no answer or solution appears, otherwise known as "The never-ending Story" because fault finding is an occupation (why else should those running our country, ie Parliament, need a legal and highly paid opposition party to contest everything they do or say?) Why are Prime Ministers only allowed four years of lunacy before the next lot step up? Why, after all this time since the first shenanigins started , 800 years or so ago? are we still on the same merry-go-round with nothing at all agreed as answers? Joe voter's community isn't paid to make decisions or know answers, only give opinions, and when you look around and realise and just take your own road, street, avenue or villa (song words) as just a small example, you begin to realise what a waste of time it all is.

My road alone has long-time locals, Asians, Poles, Hungarians and a couple of nearby African extraction families. Amongst them are Catholics (including me) Protestants, Muslims , a Methodist Vicar and who knows what else religion? Their religions shouldn't matter (but they do) in what they want from local councils or Big Mama down there in parade land.Probably, like me, they haven't a real clue as to what/who to vote for because all they see is a Keystone Cops video in the flesh happening daily and the people appointed to run our country calling each other liars and cheats. None of it would matter if we trusted any of them to represent our basic needs for a stable living. In short, despite all the practise they've had, they're still clueless.
What chance Joe/Josephine, voter?

[Harry Genshaw]

^
All good points there Monty. As a nation we were in the middle of austerity and looking at the chaos in Greece, Ireland and Italy. It was a hard sell for the architects of austerity policies, Cameron and Osborne, to say "would you like more of the same?"

I certainly don't recall any mention of the Irish border at the time. The greater concern was Scottish independence at the time.

Trumps thoughts should definitely have been more of a consideration!

[Lost Leopard Spot]

I am absolutely not having this crap that 'the man in the street' cannot understand politics. Bullshit.
Two things:
1. Europe is shitting itself at the prospect of losing our contribution to its budget - hence the artificial importance of the Irish backstop/border bullshit.
If we walked out with a True No Deal, the Irish backstop/border issue would be so subsumed in other issues it would be meaningless.
2. They weren't 'All Lies'. The figures themselves still are relevant.Indeed May has even signed up to provide the "NHS Supplement" no matter what.
But, more importantly, we're leaving but not leaving and therefore still paying into the monstrous European budget not because politicians or voters cannot work out what is going on, but because more than half the elected bloody representatives refuse to enact legislation that the electorate wants.
It wouldn't be such a clusterfxck if (for example) Patrick fxckMcloughlan actually voted in parliament in line with his constituents' desires.

[BWFC_Insane]

I am absolutely not having this crap that 'the man in the street' cannot understand politics. Bullshit.
Two things:
1. Europe is shitting itself at the prospect of losing our contribution to its budget - hence the artificial importance of the Irish backstop/border bullshit.
If we walked out with a True No Deal, the Irish backstop/border issue would be so subsumed in other issues it would be meaningless.
2. They weren't 'All Lies'. The figures themselves still are relevant.Indeed May has even signed up to provide the "NHS Supplement" no matter what.
But, more importantly, we're leaving but not leaving and therefore still paying into the monstrous European budget not because politicians or voters cannot work out what is going on, but because more than half the elected bloody representatives refuse to enact legislation that the electorate wants.
It wouldn't be such a clusterfxck if (for example) Patrick fxckMcloughlan actually voted in parliament in line with his constituents' desires.

Nobody knows what was voted for. At the time plenty of leavers were saying ‘leave doesn’t necessarily mean we leave the EEA and CU’. So I would say nobody knew what Brexit meant. Even a year after the vote nobody knew.

The negotiations have been botched beyond all belief by the most incompetent government in living memory. It’s embarrassing and their party is breaking apart.

However, whilst I disagree fundamentally on every level with Brexit I do have some sympathy with your view. The government doesn’t believe in Brexit and therefore won’t deliver it. I agree with May’s reasoning but she hasn’t had the balls to come out and say ‘this is for the best suck it up’. So it’s left to fester and everything she does is to save her political skin not for the good of us.

However when you have Brexiteer Raab saying he didn’t know how important the channel border was for trade - I think you basically sum up that nobody involved in proposing or supporting Brexit had the slightest handle on the complexities involved. Let alone the ‘man on the street’. In fact listening to various phone in’s it’s quite obvious that many who voted didn’t understand the basics of how international trade works now. Let alone how Brexit could impact on it.

What I put to you is, given the government can’t and won’t deliver anything to please anyone. And given Parliament is in gridlock. Is a second vote not the best chance of achieving what you want? Giving the government a clear mandate and instruction for a no deal Brexit? I see the risk for you is the vote goes the other way. But at least then the public could finally put this to bed.

I’ve not been in favour of another vote but now even if the opinions are ‘May’s deal’ or ‘No deal’ at least the public could give a verdict and hopefully end this horrendous charade forever.