The Politics Thread

[jimbo]

PS who is Femi?

He’s a paid remain activist. Not sure who funds him, but he essentially has a presence in the media (social and traditional) calling out Brexit bullshit. He’s got quite a following.

Thanks. Can't be much of a following when I've never heard of him.
I love the "calling out Brexit bullshit".
What me, biased?

We’re back to echo chambers on-line - he pops up regularly on my news feeds. I doubt there’s many right wing Brexit supporters sharing his content. As a result I’m not really sure how successful he’s been as he’s largely preaching to the converted.

As for the brexit bullshit, a lot of it is challenging the arguments of Brexiters who have been inconsistent with their actions and promises in the last couple of years.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

PS who is Femi?

He’s a paid remain activist. Not sure who funds him, but he essentially has a presence in the media (social and traditional) calling out Brexit bullshit. He’s got quite a following.

Thanks. Can't be much of a following when I've never heard of him.
I love the "calling out Brexit bullshit".
What me, biased?

We’re back to echo chambers on-line - he pops up regularly on my news feeds. I doubt there’s many right wing Brexit supporters sharing his content. As a result I’m not really sure how successful he’s been as he’s largely preaching to the converted.

As for the brexit bullshit, a lot of it is challenging the arguments of Brexiters who have been inconsistent with their actions and promises in the last couple of years.

Once again, thanks for the info.

I really don't understand this "inconsistent with their actions and promises in the last couple of years" business.
We haven't left the EU, even though we had a ballot to say we should. So, wherein do inconsistencies lie?

When I was a youth I fought against the 'establishment' for recognition that humanity was fxcking up the planet. I consider the opposition to the outright establishment of a supra national state to be a mere outrider of that crusade. In what way does that make me "right wing"?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

... so when Geronimo, and Sitting Bull, and Tecumseh, and Chief Joseph fought the Yanks: they were right wing racist scumbags, were they?

[Lost Leopard Spot]

...anyway.
Tomorrow belongs to us.

[BWFC_Insane]

Brexit isn’t a right or left wing issue. It just happens that the vast majority of Brexiteers are either right wing, or far left. Few seem to sit in the centre of politics. The MPs who support Brexit are either on the right of the Tory party or Labour old left in the main. Hardly any genuinely balanced politicians were in favour.

Anti establishment and nationalism is a heady mix and plays to the populism of the time.

It’s just a shame so many Brexiteers will be dead in ten years by when a few of them may have had the grace to admit they sold its a pup based on lies.

There are many things wrong with the EU. But there are a great many more things wrong with our politics and our country. And leaving the EU will not fix a single one of those.

Did Scunthorpe vote leave btw?

[BWFC_Insane]

And James O Brien has helpfully dug up one of these horrendously topical Brexit lies. Tweeted by Farage in the run up to the 2016 referendum...

If we vote to Remain on June 23rd it is the end of the steel industry in this country. Simple as that. We must Leave EU

We must never let these people forget what they have done. Let’s send Nigel up to Scunny.

[Harry Genshaw]

I'm confused. Are you suggesting that, if as a country we'd voted remain, our steel industry would be thriving in the EU? Didn't Tata/British steel collapse 3 years ago?

[BWFC_Insane]

I'm confused. Are you suggesting that, if as a country we'd voted remain, our steel industry would be thriving in the EU? Didn't Tata/British steel collapse 3 years ago?

British Steel is in its current mess because of Brexit. Orders from the EU have dried up as a result of future uncertainty. Farage lied because he pretended the EU blocked subsidy when in fact subsidies in Germany and France for their industries were far higher than ours.

Will those that voted for Brexit ever take responsibility for their actions? Get up to Scunthorpe and apologise to those who are now worryied sick for their futures. Absolutely no chance though. Brexit was sold on lie after lie. And as each lie becomes unbearably apparent just more lies are told. It really is the biggest national disgrace imagineable.

[malcd1]

I'm confused. Are you suggesting that, if as a country we'd voted remain, our steel industry would be thriving in the EU? Didn't Tata/British steel collapse 3 years ago?

British Steel is in its current mess because of Brexit. Orders from the EU have dried up as a result of future uncertainty. Farage lied because he pretended the EU blocked subsidy when in fact subsidies in Germany and France for their industries were far higher than ours.

Will those that voted for Brexit ever take responsibility for their actions? Get up to Scunthorpe and apologise to those who are now worryied sick for their futures. Absolutely no chance though. Brexit was sold on lie after lie. And as each lie becomes unbearably apparent just more lies are told. It really is the biggest national disgrace imagineable.

[Harry Genshaw]

I'm confused. Are you suggesting that, if as a country we'd voted remain, our steel industry would be thriving in the EU? Didn't Tata/British steel collapse 3 years ago?

British Steel is in its current mess because of Brexit. Orders from the EU have dried up as a result of future uncertainty. Farage lied because he pretended the EU blocked subsidy when in fact subsidies in Germany and France for their industries were far higher than ours.

Will those that voted for Brexit ever take responsibility for their actions? Get up to Scunthorpe and apologise to those who are now worryied sick for their futures. Absolutely no chance though. Brexit was sold on lie after lie. And as each lie becomes unbearably apparent just more lies are told. It really is the biggest national disgrace imagineable.

You see I just can't buy that.

3 years ago the steel works at Port Talbot had to close due to what was reported to them being unable to compete with Chinese imports. The company in Scunthorpe was bought for a quid it was that much of a basket case.

If the whole Brexit issue does have anything to do with it, perhaps it's the uncertainty about what will happen once we finally decide whether to leave or not.

Will you be going up to Scunthorpe to apologise for yours and other remainers playing a large part in all this uncertainty?

[BWFC_Insane]

I'm confused. Are you suggesting that, if as a country we'd voted remain, our steel industry would be thriving in the EU? Didn't Tata/British steel collapse 3 years ago?

British Steel is in its current mess because of Brexit. Orders from the EU have dried up as a result of future uncertainty. Farage lied because he pretended the EU blocked subsidy when in fact subsidies in Germany and France for their industries were far higher than ours.

Will those that voted for Brexit ever take responsibility for their actions? Get up to Scunthorpe and apologise to those who are now worryied sick for their futures. Absolutely no chance though. Brexit was sold on lie after lie. And as each lie becomes unbearably apparent just more lies are told. It really is the biggest national disgrace imagineable.

You see I just can't buy that.

3 years ago the steel works at Port Talbot had to close due to what was reported to them being unable to compete with Chinese imports. The company in Scunthorpe was bought for a quid it was that much of a basket case.

If the whole Brexit issue does have anything to do with it, perhaps it's the uncertainty about what will happen once we finally decide whether to leave or not.

Will you be going up to Scunthorpe to apologise for yours and other remainers playing a large part in all this uncertainty?

Had we remained there’d be no uncertainty and EU countries wouldn’t be cancelling orders. It’s really that simple.

Even now you can’t accept it. Project fear my arse.

[Harry Genshaw]

^ & had we left when we said we would there'd also be no uncertainty today.

Using brexit as a reason for the latest failing in a notoriously fickle industry isn't just project fear, it smacks of desperation on your part.

[TANGODANCER]

What I want is for all mankind to listen to me. To be be atheist, scientific, economic, aesthetic, artistic, much less fertile. It's all I ask.Who's blameworthy? What's blameworthy got to do with it?

Ah, you were doing so well up to that Spots.
All the rest are fine, but hey, God doesn't need us, we need him. If you think about it, the only feasible reason for our existence at all is a test. But no point in arguing the case either way because neither of us will change; at least, I surely won't, I have nothing to lose..

It's the one thing that divides us. Such a significant thing too.
My only regret is that you'll never know how wrong you were...

No, no,can't happen. I've already booked my place at the Insaney v St Peter confrontation. I'm not missing that for nobody....

[malcd1]

I'm confused. Are you suggesting that, if as a country we'd voted remain, our steel industry would be thriving in the EU? Didn't Tata/British steel collapse 3 years ago?

British Steel is in its current mess because of Brexit. Orders from the EU have dried up as a result of future uncertainty. Farage lied because he pretended the EU blocked subsidy when in fact subsidies in Germany and France for their industries were far higher than ours.

Will those that voted for Brexit ever take responsibility for their actions? Get up to Scunthorpe and apologise to those who are now worryied sick for their futures. Absolutely no chance though. Brexit was sold on lie after lie. And as each lie becomes unbearably apparent just more lies are told. It really is the biggest national disgrace imagineable.

Just so you know where I am coming from, the UK steel industry has been in steep decline since the late 1960's. The emergence of China as the main steel manufacturer (over 50% of the world steel production and set to increase) though has been the major factor in the UK becoming less competitive. China provides massive subsidies for its steel production companies who have flooded the market with cheap steel. The price of steel has dropped 20% in the last 12 months alone due to China.

Even the useless unions have been asking the government to apply pressure on the EU to stop the import of Chinese steel. Nothing has happened.

The uncertainty of Brexit is obviously not helping but that is not the main reason. Since 1990 our steel production has shrunk 60% while China's has increased 1400%. There is your problem.

Here is a nice little timeline of steel manufacturing in the UK. https://www.ft.com/content/774a4c74-7ba ... 85092ab560

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... production

[TANGODANCER]

Just so you know where I am coming from, the UK steel industry has been in steep decline since the late 1960's. The emergence of China as the main steel manufacturer (over 50% of the world steel production and set to increase) though has been the major factor in the UK becoming less competitive. China provides massive subsidies for its steel production companies who have flooded the market with cheap steel. The price of steel has dropped 20% in the last 12 months alone due to China.

Even the useless unions have been asking the government to apply pressure on the EU to stop the import of Chinese steel. Nothing has happened.

The uncertainty of Brexit is obviously not helping but that is not the main reason. Since 1990 our steel production has shrunk 60% while China's has increased 1400%. There is your problem.

Here is a nice little timeline of steel manufacturing in the UK. https://www.ft.com/content/774a4c74-7ba ... 85092ab560

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... production

Enlightening and frightening Malc. Steel, coal, engineering, shipbuilding and, more than them all, cotton, the blue collar environs of yesteryear that made this country are almost all crippled by change, have disappeared or become nationalised . Napoleon's "Britain, a nation of shopkeepers " is now, food apart, an online nation of keyboard tappers supplied by delivery vans from business park storage centres. "A nation of white van men", if you will. Even trades and apprenticeships are a thing of the past with skilled men replaced by "competent persons" and jack-of-all-trade "experts" the norm. What comes next doesn't bear thinking about.

[BWFC_Insane]

I'm confused. Are you suggesting that, if as a country we'd voted remain, our steel industry would be thriving in the EU? Didn't Tata/British steel collapse 3 years ago?

British Steel is in its current mess because of Brexit. Orders from the EU have dried up as a result of future uncertainty. Farage lied because he pretended the EU blocked subsidy when in fact subsidies in Germany and France for their industries were far higher than ours.

Will those that voted for Brexit ever take responsibility for their actions? Get up to Scunthorpe and apologise to those who are now worryied sick for their futures. Absolutely no chance though. Brexit was sold on lie after lie. And as each lie becomes unbearably apparent just more lies are told. It really is the biggest national disgrace imagineable.

Just so you know where I am coming from, the UK steel industry has been in steep decline since the late 1960's. The emergence of China as the main steel manufacturer (over 50% of the world steel production and set to increase) though has been the major factor in the UK becoming less competitive. China provides massive subsidies for its steel production companies who have flooded the market with cheap steel. The price of steel has dropped 20% in the last 12 months alone due to China.

Even the useless unions have been asking the government to apply pressure on the EU to stop the import of Chinese steel. Nothing has happened.

The uncertainty of Brexit is obviously not helping but that is not the main reason. Since 1990 our steel production has shrunk 60% while China's has increased 1400%. There is your problem.

Here is a nice little timeline of steel manufacturing in the UK. https://www.ft.com/content/774a4c74-7ba ... 85092ab560

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... production

There are very specific short term circumstances beyond market trends that have resulted in the collapse of British steel. Circumstances over the past two years...namely...Brexit.

As for the wider trend - yes Chinese production has impacted massively. But even then why is our production down so significantly when (for example) - Germany's has increased since the 60's, France's is more or less stable, and Spain's increased massively?

And we come back to the outright lie from Farage - unless we vote to leave our steel industry will die. A disgrace. A brazen and ridiculously harmful lie. Just one of thousands by Brexiteers mind.

[Harry Genshaw]

I'm sure uncertainty doesn't help but you're ignoring the fact that our steel production has been declining for a generation, not just 2 years. As Malcs figures show, we now produce less than Egypt. I think they've faced a tad more uncertainty than we have these last few years!

[BWFC_Insane]

I'm sure uncertainty doesn't help but you're ignoring the fact that our steel production has been declining for a generation, not just 2 years. As Malcs figures show, we now produce less than Egypt. I think they've faced a tad more uncertainty than we have these last few years!

Do you want to address Farage's pre referendum statement then? Is leaving the EU crucial to saving our steel industry? Or is it just another in a long list of lies?

[BWFC_Insane]

And whilst we're on lies...here's another Brexit lie that is debunked.....

https://www.businessinsider.com/says-li ... ?r=US&IR=T

The Brexit lot are so fecking brain-washed they will not admit to anything. Yet the "bodies" as predicted are now piling up.

[Harry Genshaw]

I'm sure uncertainty doesn't help but you're ignoring the fact that our steel production has been declining for a generation, not just 2 years. As Malcs figures show, we now produce less than Egypt. I think they've faced a tad more uncertainty than we have these last few years!

Do you want to address Farage's pre referendum statement then? Is leaving the EU crucial to saving our steel industry? Or is it just another in a long list of lies?

Well I'm glad you've (sort of) acknowledged you were wrong for blaming Brexit for British steels historical problems.

I'm no defender or indeed supporter of Farage, other than we probably both voted leave and I'd say at best what he said sounds like an exaggeration. However, I would guess what he was referring to was that under the EU the industry was in terminal decline and their rules prevented the Govt bailing them out. EU or not, the industry was/is declining.