Today I'm angry about.....

[Bijou Bob]

What makes you think integration is workable in anything other than a very long timescale?

The relevant question in a sentence.

I'm not sure it is workable. If it ever becomes so, I suspect the starting point will be a softening of some cultural mores in Pakistani and Bangladeshi communities, however that won't happen unless those communities are challenged to change. We haven't done that for the last 40 years or so but we really do need to start that conversation. I'm not sure any of the mainstream political parties have currently got the balls for that as let's face it, but for one campaigning MP, we'd still be happy with some communities ritually mutilating their female children.

[TANGODANCER]

^ Any form of total integration is proving more difficult with Muslims than any other race or religion. Chinese and Japanese people, and many other Asian races, live here in a westernised environ and practise their religions peaceably and generally in acceptable and uncontroversial margins of humanity. In that respect the Muslim religion is almost biblical in its refusal to adapt to western ways and dispense with barbaric, racial and feminine issues. Strange too that they are usually the first to play the race card and blame others for being wrong at any and every opportunity. No easy solution then.

[Worthy4England]

I like the idea of seminars as mentioned in the article, as a way of explaining what is and isn't acceptable in western society. We must have hundreds of thousands of immigrants over the years who have come here and remained in enclaves representing a microcosm of the country and culture they've just left. That can't help integration.

The biggest challenge may be how do you allow devout Muslims to retain their religion and culture whilst at the same time recognising the freedoms (particularly for women) we enjoy in the west.

Where I struggle is this. From being in a playground as a sprog growing up, you sorta learn if you want to play with group x you need to smoke behind the bike sheds, group y play football etc, etc. Surely that's little different here. If I needed to go and work in Terhan, I don't expect to be able to do some things I can do here. If I'm in an Aussie bar, I suspect I might get some stick if we're 3-1 up in the Ashes. I do believe if folks want to live here then they accept our "values" - understanding that they're difficult to codify - and leave their values at the door.

[Harry Genshaw]

I like the idea of seminars as mentioned in the article, as a way of explaining what is and isn't acceptable in western society. We must have hundreds of thousands of immigrants over the years who have come here and remained in enclaves representing a microcosm of the country and culture they've just left. That can't help integration.

The biggest challenge may be how do you allow devout Muslims to retain their religion and culture whilst at the same time recognising the freedoms (particularly for women) we enjoy in the west.

Where I struggle is this. From being in a playground as a sprog growing up, you sorta learn if you want to play with group x you need to smoke behind the bike sheds, group y play football etc, etc. Surely that's little different here. If I needed to go and work in Terhan, I don't expect to be able to do some things I can do here. If I'm in an Aussie bar, I suspect I might get some stick if we're 3-1 up in the Ashes. I do believe if folks want to live here then they accept our "values" - understanding that they're difficult to codify - and leave their values at the door.

Agreed but this is often more a religious issue than one of values . You're right, when in Rome and all that, but if you have a strong religious belief that certain things are unacceptable (equal rights for women, depictions of the prophet etc) & to accept them makes you less devout you've a difficult dilemma. Many can, and do manage that battle bit no surprise that some can't. No easy answer that's for sure

[Worthy4England]

I like the idea of seminars as mentioned in the article, as a way of explaining what is and isn't acceptable in western society. We must have hundreds of thousands of immigrants over the years who have come here and remained in enclaves representing a microcosm of the country and culture they've just left. That can't help integration.

The biggest challenge may be how do you allow devout Muslims to retain their religion and culture whilst at the same time recognising the freedoms (particularly for women) we enjoy in the west.

Where I struggle is this. From being in a playground as a sprog growing up, you sorta learn if you want to play with group x you need to smoke behind the bike sheds, group y play football etc, etc. Surely that's little different here. If I needed to go and work in Terhan, I don't expect to be able to do some things I can do here. If I'm in an Aussie bar, I suspect I might get some stick if we're 3-1 up in the Ashes. I do believe if folks want to live here then they accept our "values" - understanding that they're difficult to codify - and leave their values at the door.

I like the idea of seminars as mentioned in the article, as a way of explaining what is and isn't acceptable in western society. We must have hundreds of thousands of immigrants over the years who have come here and remained in enclaves representing a microcosm of the country and culture they've just left. That can't help integration.

The biggest challenge may be how do you allow devout Muslims to retain their religion and culture whilst at the same time recognising the freedoms (particularly for women) we enjoy in the west.

Where I struggle is this. From being in a playground as a sprog growing up, you sorta learn if you want to play with group x you need to smoke behind the bike sheds, group y play football etc, etc. Surely that's little different here. If I needed to go and work in Terhan, I don't expect to be able to do some things I can do here. If I'm in an Aussie bar, I suspect I might get some stick if we're 3-1 up in the Ashes. I do believe if folks want to live here then they accept our "values" - understanding that they're difficult to codify - and leave their values at the door.

Agreed but this is often more a religious issue than one of values . You're right, when in Rome and all that, but if you have a strong religious belief that certain things are unacceptable (equal rights for women, depictions of the prophet etc) & to accept them makes you less devout you've a difficult dilemma. Many can, and do manage that battle bit no surprise that some can't. No easy answer that's for sure

Religious belief doesn't get a special category for me. Can leave that at the door too. Either accept none or accept that we're Christian country, if it's going to bring you into conflict with wider values...

[TANGODANCER]

I read our beloved country described thus in something I'm reading:

"The British Empire, the most avaricious piece of land grab since Genghis Kahn climbed abord a pony" . I suppose that's a pretty accurate summation really? I suppose it also illustrates the "be careful what you wish for" quote.

[Worthy4England]

I read our beloved country described thus in something I'm reading:

"The British Empire, the most avaricious piece of land grab since Genghis Kahn climbed abord a pony" . I suppose that's a pretty accurate summation really? I suppose it also illustrates the "be careful what you wish for" quote.

That Sir, is our Empire being described. Significantly different than our Country....

[TANGODANCER]

I read our beloved country described thus in something I'm reading:

"The British Empire, the most avaricious piece of land grab since Genghis Kahn climbed abord a pony" . I suppose that's a pretty accurate summation really? I suppose it also illustrates the "be careful what you wish for" quote.

That Sir, is our Empire being described. Significantly different than our Country....

Indeed, but head office was always here and head office was doing the grabbing and made the rules of ownership. A union Jack and a picture of the reigning monarch was usually granted along with the legend, "You are now England".

[Hoboh]

Well what can I say, I am pleased some people are now realising there actually is a problem!

Next phase is when people start to realise that the massive scale of migration is not going to help anyone, in fact it will just accelerate problems.

I may, on the odd occasion, go a little OTT but the meek will never inherit anything except the odd black eye and have the p*ss taken by chancers.

[Worthy4England]

Well what can I say, I am pleased some people are now realising there actually is a problem!

Next phase is when people start to realise that the massive scale of migration is not going to help anyone, in fact it will just accelerate problems.

I may, on the odd occasion, go a little OTT but the meek will never inherit anything except the odd black eye and have the p*ss taken by chancers.

The problem is years old. Not recent. Not particularly to do with Europe either.

[Hoboh]

Well what can I say, I am pleased some people are now realising there actually is a problem!

Next phase is when people start to realise that the massive scale of migration is not going to help anyone, in fact it will just accelerate problems.

I may, on the odd occasion, go a little OTT but the meek will never inherit anything except the odd black eye and have the p*ss taken by chancers.

The problem is years old. Not recent. Not particularly to do with Europe either.

So 40 years ago when I left school we had the problems on the scale we have now?

30 years ago even?

20 years ago?

Cannot seem to remember Loads of Eastern Europeans in the UK then, nor a million migrants tramping through Europe, nor a German minister suggesting a European tax on fuel to pay for his Chancellors dropped (yes she probably has them) bollock!

See EU + Germans trying to dictate tax and migration now, don't remember any of that in the common market referendum!

Nothing to do with Europe my Ass!

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Nothing to do with Empire either. As I said earlier, Masai warriors, Canadian Inuits, Australian Aborigines, Papuan head hunters, Belizian Mesquito Indians... nope, no problem integrating there ( if they're here), and not much on the (ongoing) war front out there against us either.

[Harry Genshaw]

Nothing to do with Empire either. As I said earlier, Masai warriors, Canadian Inuits, Australian Aborigines, Papuan head hunters, Belizian Mesquito Indians... nope, no problem integrating there ( if they're here), and not much on the (ongoing) war front out there against us either.

I think your first 3 groups particularly had some trouble with integration.

[Worthy4England]

Well what can I say, I am pleased some people are now realising there actually is a problem!

Next phase is when people start to realise that the massive scale of migration is not going to help anyone, in fact it will just accelerate problems.

I may, on the odd occasion, go a little OTT but the meek will never inherit anything except the odd black eye and have the p*ss taken by chancers.

The problem is years old. Not recent. Not particularly to do with Europe either.

So 40 years ago when I left school we had the problems on the scale we have now?

30 years ago even?

20 years ago?

Cannot seem to remember Loads of Eastern Europeans in the UK then, nor a million migrants tramping through Europe, nor a German minister suggesting a European tax on fuel to pay for his Chancellors dropped (yes she probably has them) bollock!

See EU + Germans trying to dictate tax and migration now, don't remember any of that in the common market referendum!

Nothing to do with Europe my Ass!

The problem being talked about was integration not migration - and yes that problem existed 40 years ago.

[Hoboh]

Well what can I say, I am pleased some people are now realising there actually is a problem!

Next phase is when people start to realise that the massive scale of migration is not going to help anyone, in fact it will just accelerate problems.

I may, on the odd occasion, go a little OTT but the meek will never inherit anything except the odd black eye and have the p*ss taken by chancers.

The problem is years old. Not recent. Not particularly to do with Europe either.

So 40 years ago when I left school we had the problems on the scale we have now?

30 years ago even?

20 years ago?

Cannot seem to remember Loads of Eastern Europeans in the UK then, nor a million migrants tramping through Europe, nor a German minister suggesting a European tax on fuel to pay for his Chancellors dropped (yes she probably has them) bollock!

See EU + Germans trying to dictate tax and migration now, don't remember any of that in the common market referendum!

Nothing to do with Europe my Ass!

The problem being talked about was integration not migration - and yes that problem existed 40 years ago.

Not as much as you make out.
When I started my apprenticeship in the training school we had a couple of Muslims, Pakistanis I think, who mucked in and had a laugh about most things all be it they declined the pub at lunch time.
The thing is there wasn't that many, I think those two were the first I'd really seen and had things carried on at a reasonable pace 40 years later most would be living life well within the main stream.
It's just bleeding hearts and numbnut do gooder's who think mass movement of people will not exasperate a lack of integration and open hostility.
Eastern Europeans bring enough baggage without the added bonus of a medieval religion that the latest incomers have, the whole thing will end in tears if we stay put in a Europe were you cannot vote against the German leaders decisions or the president of the EU or head of the commission etc. etc. Your vote and your democracy will be the equivalent of voting for a Parish council, why can you not face or admit that?

[Prufrock]

*I* don't accept this is a "Christian country". Fewer than a million going to church of a Sunday. You're not kicking me out!

[Hoboh]

*I* don't accept this is a "Christian country". Fewer than a million going to church of a Sunday. You're not kicking me out!

Christian country or not, our society was formed upon Christian lines.

[Prufrock]

Meh, I'd argue with you on that (or at least question what that actually means - to be 'formed on Christian lines'), but no argument Christianity forms the basis of our cultural references. When it comes to integration though, far better to focus on enlightenment values!

In fairness to Worthy I should say that I don't think he was suggesting they have to convert!

There'll be cultural difficulties of course but when faced with issues like DV or FGM it simply won't do to worry about religion or if they'll find it culturally awkward. Tough.

[Worthy4England]

*I* don't accept this is a "Christian country". Fewer than a million going to church of a Sunday. You're not kicking me out!

I don't believe church attendance is any sort of measure of whether someone acknowledges their religious identity or not. So you can fck right off. I care not one jot whether you accept it or not.

Worthy was not expecting anyone to convert and nor was it particularly religion focused statement.

[Worthy4England]

Well what can I say, I am pleased some people are now realising there actually is a problem!

Next phase is when people start to realise that the massive scale of migration is not going to help anyone, in fact it will just accelerate problems.

I may, on the odd occasion, go a little OTT but the meek will never inherit anything except the odd black eye and have the p*ss taken by chancers.

The problem is years old. Not recent. Not particularly to do with Europe either.

So 40 years ago when I left school we had the problems on the scale we have now?

30 years ago even?

20 years ago?

Cannot seem to remember Loads of Eastern Europeans in the UK then, nor a million migrants tramping through Europe, nor a German minister suggesting a European tax on fuel to pay for his Chancellors dropped (yes she probably has them) bollock!

See EU + Germans trying to dictate tax and migration now, don't remember any of that in the common market referendum!

Nothing to do with Europe my Ass!

The problem being talked about was integration not migration - and yes that problem existed 40 years ago.

Not as much as you make out.
When I started my apprenticeship in the training school we had a couple of Muslims, Pakistanis I think, who mucked in and had a laugh about most things all be it they declined the pub at lunch time.
The thing is there wasn't that many, I think those two were the first I'd really seen and had things carried on at a reasonable pace 40 years later most would be living life well within the main stream.
It's just bleeding hearts and numbnut do gooder's who think mass movement of people will not exasperate a lack of integration and open hostility.
Eastern Europeans bring enough baggage without the added bonus of a medieval religion that the latest incomers have, the whole thing will end in tears if we stay put in a Europe were you cannot vote against the German leaders decisions or the president of the EU or head of the commission etc. etc. Your vote and your democracy will be the equivalent of voting for a Parish council, why can you not face or admit that?

The fact that you didn't notice an integration problem because it was smaller doesn't mean it wasn't there. As for democracy, my vote counts for fck all already, in a system that generally elects 35% minority governments.