Poetry!!!

[thebish]

Bish, please stop lecturing and cut out the sighing bit. .It's very boring and a bit insulting. I can actually, on a good day, spell Mississippi and recite my twelve times tables. Hard to believe I know, but true.

To start with you've stated often enough that you know little of Khayyam except stuff you've been asked to quote at weddings. Now , suddenly you're lecturing me as to who I should credit his works to. When somebody asks you to do the reciting bit by Khayyam, do you ask them do they really mean Fitzgerald? Shall I ask WTW if he's fluent in Spanish or does his admiration for Gabriel Garcia Marquez stem from the English translation? What's the difference? I'm sure I don't know. If Fitgerald had tried to pass his translations off as his own poetry he's have been sued as a fraud. He didn't do that. He translated the works of Khayyam and brought a great and respected poet to the western world. What more explanation is needed?

I think this is the part where you now accuse me of having a hissy fit. I'm actually laughing my bollocks off.

it was a simple question and not initially aimed at you anyway - but you chose to get involved so I replied. Unless I've missed something that's how forums work.

good luck with finding those bollocks - maybe they rolled under the sofa.....

(I take it the hissy fit is down to you simply not understanding the issue again... but - what's new?)

[William the White]

Bish, please stop lecturing and cut out the sighing bit. .It's very boring and a bit insulting. I can actually, on a good day, spell Mississippi and recite my twelve times tables. Hard to believe I know, but true.

To start with you've stated often enough that you know little of Khayyam except stuff you've been asked to quote at weddings. Now , suddenly you're lecturing me as to who I should credit his works to. When somebody asks you to do the reciting bit by Khayyam, do you ask them do they really mean Fitzgerald? Shall I ask WTW if he's fluent in Spanish or does his admiration for Gabriel Garcia Marquez stem from the English translation? What's the difference? I'm sure I don't know. If Fitgerald had tried to pass his translations off as his own poetry he's have been sued as a fraud. He didn't do that. He translated the works of Khayyam and brought a great and respected poet to the western world. What more explanation is needed?

I think this is the part where you now accuse me of having a hissy fit. I'm actually laughing my bollocks off.

My entire admiration - near worship - for Garcia Marquez comes from his work in translation. My Spanish is far too poor for me to read him other than in translation. But the translator's work has, thankfully, allowed me access to a writer who is, in my view, the greatest of the 20th century, and the single greatest novel - one hundred years of solitude.

I am recognising a joint endeavour - it is a joint work - the originator and the translator... i am grateful to both...

Fitzgerald's work on Khayyam was true to his (Fitz's) verse within the rather restricted poetic conventions of his time and those were not the times of Iran in the 11th century... But he made a real attempt to communicate over two different cultures and seven centuries some essential insights into the human condition, and took enormous liberties to do so...

It's clearly Fitzgerald's verse really trying to remain truthful to Khayyam's ideas... Not a bad effort...

Much better for all our cultures that he did it rather than not... Cos, really, it's good... And more enduring in many of its insights than Khayyam's maths and astronomy...

which I sorta like... the poet lives eternally... the scientist is transient...

[Puskas]

Much better for all our cultures that he did it rather than not... Cos, really, it's good... And more enduring in many of its insights than Khayyam's maths and astronomy...

which I sorta like... the poet lives eternally... the scientist is transient...

Meh. Science which turns out to be incorrect is of course transient. Science which is true lasts - see, for example, Newton, Galileo, Darwin, Einstein, etc....

Bad poetry, fortunately, is also transient.

Although I am reminded of the joke about the difference between a mathematician and a philosopher.
The mathematician needs a pen, paper and bin to do his work. The philosopher only needs a pen and paper.

[thebish]

Much better for all our cultures that he did it rather than not... Cos, really, it's good... And more enduring in many of its insights than Khayyam's maths and astronomy...

which I sorta like... the poet lives eternally... the scientist is transient...

Meh. Science which turns out to be incorrect is of course transient. Science which is true lasts - see, for example, Newton, Galileo, Darwin, Einstein, etc....

Bad poetry, fortunately, is also transient.

Although I am reminded of the joke about the difference between a mathematician and a philosopher.
The mathematician needs a pen, paper and bin to do his work. The philosopher only needs a pen and paper.

touché!

[thebish]

Much better for all our cultures that he did it rather than not... Cos, really, it's good... And more enduring in many of its insights than Khayyam's maths and astronomy...

which I sorta like... the poet lives eternally... the scientist is transient...

Meh. Science which turns out to be incorrect is of course transient. Science which is true lasts - see, for example, Newton, Galileo, Darwin, Einstein, etc....

Bad poetry, fortunately, is also transient.

Although I am reminded of the joke about the difference between a mathematician and a philosopher.
The mathematician needs a pen, paper and bin to do his work. The philosopher only needs a pen and paper.

unless you're talking about the legendary William Topaz McGonagall whose epic (disaster) poetry was so bad it has lasted the test of time!

here's some of his finest moments...

And by the 26th of July the guns of Fort Moro were destroyed,
And the French and Spaniards were greatly annoyed;

Margaret Simpson was the daughter of humble parents in the County of Ayr,
With a comely figure and face of beauty rare

And when life's prospects may at times appear dreary to ye,
Remember Alois Senefelder, the discoverer of Lithography

Because God helps those that help themselves,
And those that don't try to do so are silly elves.

Lord Roberts' march into Pretoria was inspiring to see,
It is reckoned one of the greatest achievements in our military history


legend!

[William the White]

Much better for all our cultures that he did it rather than not... Cos, really, it's good... And more enduring in many of its insights than Khayyam's maths and astronomy...

which I sorta like... the poet lives eternally... the scientist is transient...

Meh. Science which turns out to be incorrect is of course transient. Science which is true lasts - see, for example, Newton, Galileo, Darwin, Einstein, etc....

Bad poetry, fortunately, is also transient.

Although I am reminded of the joke about the difference between a mathematician and a philosopher.
The mathematician needs a pen, paper and bin to do his work. The philosopher only needs a pen and paper.

It's just that the scientist's sphere is so limited - to the universe.

Whereas the poet's is unlimited - to the flesh, bone and spirit...

[Puskas]

Much better for all our cultures that he did it rather than not... Cos, really, it's good... And more enduring in many of its insights than Khayyam's maths and astronomy...

which I sorta like... the poet lives eternally... the scientist is transient...

Meh. Science which turns out to be incorrect is of course transient. Science which is true lasts - see, for example, Newton, Galileo, Darwin, Einstein, etc....

Bad poetry, fortunately, is also transient.

Although I am reminded of the joke about the difference between a mathematician and a philosopher.
The mathematician needs a pen, paper and bin to do his work. The philosopher only needs a pen and paper.

It's just that the scientist's sphere is so limited - to the universe.

Whereas the poet's is unlimited - to the flesh, bone and spirit...

So if the poet's sphere is outside the universe, where is it?

And, perhaps more pertinently, how does he (or indeed anyone) experience it?

[William the White]

Much better for all our cultures that he did it rather than not... Cos, really, it's good... And more enduring in many of its insights than Khayyam's maths and astronomy...

which I sorta like... the poet lives eternally... the scientist is transient...

Meh. Science which turns out to be incorrect is of course transient. Science which is true lasts - see, for example, Newton, Galileo, Darwin, Einstein, etc....

Bad poetry, fortunately, is also transient.

Although I am reminded of the joke about the difference between a mathematician and a philosopher.
The mathematician needs a pen, paper and bin to do his work. The philosopher only needs a pen and paper.

It's just that the scientist's sphere is so limited - to the universe.

Whereas the poet's is unlimited - to the flesh, bone and spirit...

So if the poet's sphere is outside the universe, where is it?

And, perhaps more pertinently, how does he (or indeed anyone) experience it?

It is on 'the road not taken...' (Robert Frost)

It is in 'the world shrunk to mouth size, hand size and never seeming small...' (Stephen Dunn)

It is in a place of 'words but no language...' (Tomas Transtrommer)

It is experienced in a sphere between toe nail and a far, far off speck of dandruff...

You know this, Puskas... You didn't really have to ask...

[Puskas]

It is on 'the road not taken...' (Robert Frost)

It is in 'the world shrunk to mouth size, hand size and never seeming small...' (Stephen Dunn)

It is in a place of 'words but no language...' (Tomas Transtrommer)

It is experienced in a sphere between toe nail and a far, far off speck of dandruff...

You know this, Puskas... You didn't really have to ask...

I think you attribute too much knowledge to me - I'm really not very clever. Just an ordinary, humble chap....

And whilst your initial comment was intended slightly whimsically, I do think that it was wrong. Science and poetry talk about the same things. If you can experience it, you can study it, and hence it's a fit subject for science.

If you can't experience it, you can't say anything about it (what is there to say?) - hence you can't write poetry about it.

Two cultures? Pah....

[William the White]

It is on 'the road not taken...' (Robert Frost)

It is in 'the world shrunk to mouth size, hand size and never seeming small...' (Stephen Dunn)

It is in a place of 'words but no language...' (Tomas Transtrommer)

It is experienced in a sphere between toe nail and a far, far off speck of dandruff...

You know this, Puskas... You didn't really have to ask...

I think you attribute too much knowledge to me - I'm really not very clever. Just an ordinary, humble chap....

And whilst your initial comment was intended slightly whimsically, I do think that it was wrong. Science and poetry talk about the same things. If you can experience it, you can study it, and hence it's a fit subject for science.

If you can't experience it, you can't say anything about it (what is there to say?) - hence you can't write poetry about it.

Two cultures? Pah....

You have to be clever to feel? To ponder the road not travelled. To lose yourself in the hand-size, mouth-size world, to feel the agony of speaking in words and failing to communicate?

Tell me what the scientist has to say about these in the monoculture you imagine.

[Puskas]

It is on 'the road not taken...' (Robert Frost)

It is in 'the world shrunk to mouth size, hand size and never seeming small...' (Stephen Dunn)

It is in a place of 'words but no language...' (Tomas Transtrommer)

It is experienced in a sphere between toe nail and a far, far off speck of dandruff...

You know this, Puskas... You didn't really have to ask...

I think you attribute too much knowledge to me - I'm really not very clever. Just an ordinary, humble chap....

And whilst your initial comment was intended slightly whimsically, I do think that it was wrong. Science and poetry talk about the same things. If you can experience it, you can study it, and hence it's a fit subject for science.

If you can't experience it, you can't say anything about it (what is there to say?) - hence you can't write poetry about it.

Two cultures? Pah....

You have to be clever to feel? To ponder the road not travelled. To lose yourself in the hand-size, mouth-size world, to feel the agony of speaking in words and failing to communicate?

Tell me what the scientist has to say about these in the monoculture you imagine.

What does the scientist say? Which scientist? I suspect different scientists may say different things about what they're feeling at any time.

Science as a whole, however - a good introduction to the state of modern research into this area is Antonio Damasio's "The feeling of what happens". We can talk about brain states and their relation to feelings (hence creating feelings through brain states and so on). We can describe feelings, and also their physical causes.

Maybe someone could write a poem about it, too.

[William the White]

Maybe someone could write a poem about it, too.

Got there, at last...

[William the White]

The Czech poet Miroslav Holub offers these thoughts...

Fish
always accurately know where to move and when,
and likewise
birds have an accurate built-in time sense
and orientation.

Humanity, however,
lacking such instincts resorts to scientific
research. Its nature is illustrated by the following
occurrence.

A certain soldier
had to fire a cannon at six o'clock sharp every evening.
Being a soldier he did so. When his accuracy was
investigated he explained:

I go by
the absolutely accurate chronometer in the window
of the clockmaker in the city. Every day at seventeen
forty-five I set my watch by it and
climb the hill where my cannon stands ready.
At seventeen fifty-nine precisely I step up to the cannon
and at eighteen hours sharp I fire.

And it was clear
that this method of firing was absolutely accurate.
All that was left was to check that chronometer. So
the clockmaker down in the city was questioned about
his instrument's accuracy.

Oh, said the clockmaker,
this is one of the most accurate instruments ever. Just imagine,
for many years now a cannon has been fired at six o'clock sharp.
And every day I look at this chronometer
and always it shows exactly six.

So much for accuracy.
And fish move in the water and from the skies
comes a rushing of wings while

Chronometers tick and cannon boom.

[thebish]

Much better for all our cultures that he did it rather than not... Cos, really, it's good... And more enduring in many of its insights than Khayyam's maths and astronomy...

which I sorta like... the poet lives eternally... the scientist is transient...

Meh. Science which turns out to be incorrect is of course transient. Science which is true lasts - see, for example, Newton, Galileo, Darwin, Einstein, etc....

Bad poetry, fortunately, is also transient.

Although I am reminded of the joke about the difference between a mathematician and a philosopher.
The mathematician needs a pen, paper and bin to do his work. The philosopher only needs a pen and paper.

It's just that the scientist's sphere is so limited - to the universe.

Whereas the poet's is unlimited - to the flesh, bone and spirit...

in what sense are flesh and bone not part of the universe??

and - what do you mean by "spirit" if it is not part of the universe and you are not a religious man?

[superjohnmcginlay]

Much better for all our cultures that he did it rather than not... Cos, really, it's good... And more enduring in many of its insights than Khayyam's maths and astronomy...

which I sorta like... the poet lives eternally... the scientist is transient...

Meh. Science which turns out to be incorrect is of course transient. Science which is true lasts - see, for example, Newton, Galileo, Darwin, Einstein, etc....

Bad poetry, fortunately, is also transient.

Although I am reminded of the joke about the difference between a mathematician and a philosopher.
The mathematician needs a pen, paper and bin to do his work. The philosopher only needs a pen and paper.

It's just that the scientist's sphere is so limited - to the universe.

Whereas the poet's is unlimited - to the flesh, bone and spirit...

in what sense are flesh and bone not part of the universe??

and - what do you mean by "spirit" if it is not part of the universe and you are not a religious man?

Whisky.

[William the White]

Much better for all our cultures that he did it rather than not... Cos, really, it's good... And more enduring in many of its insights than Khayyam's maths and astronomy...

which I sorta like... the poet lives eternally... the scientist is transient...

Meh. Science which turns out to be incorrect is of course transient. Science which is true lasts - see, for example, Newton, Galileo, Darwin, Einstein, etc....

Bad poetry, fortunately, is also transient.

Although I am reminded of the joke about the difference between a mathematician and a philosopher.
The mathematician needs a pen, paper and bin to do his work. The philosopher only needs a pen and paper.

It's just that the scientist's sphere is so limited - to the universe.

Whereas the poet's is unlimited - to the flesh, bone and spirit...

in what sense are flesh and bone not part of the universe??

and - what do you mean by "spirit" if it is not part of the universe and you are not a religious man?

So literal, the bish... Why do you ask me when I've answered above...

the road not taken...

the words not communicated...

the world shrunk to hand-size, mouth-size and never seeming small...

the particular universe residing, in infinite variety, between toe nail and far away speck of dandruff that Puskas confuses with metabolism, and what does God have to do with that?

I don't deny our corporeality - but i think we belong to the poet as much as the doctor...

[William the White]

and whisky, of course...

[Puskas]

the particular universe residing, in infinite variety, between toe nail and far away speck of dandruff that Puskas confuses with metabolism, and what does God have to do with that?

I don't deny our corporeality - but i think we belong to the poet as much as the doctor...

What am I confusing with metabolism? Can you tell me what else there is...? Beyond thoughts, feelings and so on, which are a by-product of it.

I don't deny the role of the poet - I would say that he's speaking of the same thing as the doctor. The doctor would, obviously, do so with more precision. The poet would strive for beauty over that (although I'd also maintain that precision can be beautiful in its own way).

Why do we need to try to draw up these misleading barriers?

[William the White]

the particular universe residing, in infinite variety, between toe nail and far away speck of dandruff that Puskas confuses with metabolism, and what does God have to do with that?

I don't deny our corporeality - but i think we belong to the poet as much as the doctor...

What am I confusing with metabolism? Can you tell me what else there is...? Beyond thoughts, feelings and so on, which are a by-product of it.

I don't deny the role of the poet - I would say that he's speaking of the same thing as the doctor. The doctor would, obviously, do so with more precision. The poet would strive for beauty over that (although I'd also maintain that precision can be beautiful in its own way).

Why do we need to try to draw up these misleading barriers?

Tell us your favourite poem, then I'll believe you...

[thebish]

So literal, the bish... Why do you ask me when I've answered above...

the road not taken...

the words not communicated...

the world shrunk to hand-size, mouth-size and never seeming small...

the particular universe residing, in infinite variety, between toe nail and far away speck of dandruff that Puskas confuses with metabolism, and what does God have to do with that?

I don't deny our corporeality - but i think we belong to the poet as much as the doctor...

because i don't really think you have answered - you have obfuscated. I am quite literal in many ways, you're right - I have a science degree. I think you are raising a false dichotomy between the scope of science and the scope of art - one which is often posited by artists...

a poet works within precisely the same dimensions as a physicist...