The Politics Thread

[BWFC_Insane]

I agree with what you're saying in principle. But. They're not borrowing to "hand" anything to the richest 5%. That's not how tax works. They tax tax off people, not give it to them! Whatever your tax bracket, it was always your money in the first place.

The tax cuts will mean there is less revenue. They haven’t announced any spending cuts. So this is just adding to the credit card. I can’t be bothered doing the semantics around tax cuts can’t be unfunded because everyone knows that to cut taxes will increase the national debt.

So whilst some of the richest people benefit to the tune of an extra £55,000 a year everyone else will end up having to pay for it. That’s simply a fact. And no doubt when the time comes we once again will hammer the poorest in the name of balancing the books. Only this time the scale of balancing is orders of magnitude greater.

[Worthy4England]

I agree with what you're saying in principle. But. They're not borrowing to "hand" anything to the richest 5%. That's not how tax works. They tax tax off people, not give it to them! Whatever your tax bracket, it was always your money in the first place.

The tax cuts will mean there is less revenue. They haven’t announced any spending cuts. So this is just adding to the credit card. I can’t be bothered doing the semantics around tax cuts can’t be unfunded because everyone knows that to cut taxes will increase the national debt.

So whilst some of the richest people benefit to the tune of an extra £55,000 a year everyone else will end up having to pay for it. That’s simply a fact. And no doubt when the time comes we once again will hammer the poorest in the name of balancing the books. Only this time the scale of balancing is orders of magnitude greater.

I agree with your post, mate, but we shouldn't kid ourselves that anyone is giving any taxpayers anything. They're not. That headline will reduce treasury revenue by around £1bn. The 1p off basic rate will reduce it by £5bn...

[Bruce Rioja]

I've voted Conservative all my life, but even I can see that any tax cuts needed to be weighted in favour of bottom up, not top down. This idea that inflation is running at 10% is absolute bollocks, it's around 20.
As per the MD of Iceland supermarkets, the real effect is in the prices of milk, bread, eggs etc. The lack of movement in the prices of legs of lamb and bottles of Champers etc are what's keeping the actual figure artificially down.
This is a massive, massive gamble. We can only hope for the best.

[jimbo]

I've voted Conservative all my life, but even I can see that any tax cuts needed to be weighted in favour of bottom up, not top down. This idea that inflation is running at 10% is absolute bollocks, it's around 20.
As per the MD of Iceland supermarkets, the real effect is in the prices of milk, bread, eggs etc. The lack of movement in the prices of legs of lamb and bottles of Champers etc are what's keeping the actual figure artificially down.
This is a massive, massive gamble. We can only hope for the best.

My issue is that even if the gamble pays off and there is this trickling down to help everyone else, it won’t be soon enough. People have problems now being unable to afford food / heating / mortgages / fuel. They need help and things that will benefit them now. Not in a few years once the millionaires have invested their extra cash and started to generate jobs / growth etc. All we will get is people who do work hard, and do have decent jobs struggling to get by. Hell, even I’m a bit worried that with interest rates rising my mortgage will probably be £300 a month more next year when it’s due for renewal, and my energy bills are £200 a month more. My wage hasn’t changed.

[Worthy4England]

I've voted Conservative all my life, but even I can see that any tax cuts needed to be weighted in favour of bottom up, not top down. This idea that inflation is running at 10% is absolute bollocks, it's around 20.
As per the MD of Iceland supermarkets, the real effect is in the prices of milk, bread, eggs etc. The lack of movement in the prices of legs of lamb and bottles of Champers etc are what's keeping the actual figure artificially down.
This is a massive, massive gamble. We can only hope for the best.

The reason it can't is because the top end will also get the benefits of the "low end" cuts, mate...I agree 100% that I wouldn't be giving tax cuts to rich people, but you can't avoid it, unless you increase the top rate of tax in tandem (which I might have contemplated, but I don't think the "super tax" principles of the 70's worked either).

I do think companies aren't paying their fair whack, so I wouldn't have been cutting Corp tax to 19%...I've not seen much evidence that those reductions lead to more investment or lower prices to consumers. Anyone think when it kicks in, we're going to see a couple of percent passed back to consumers?

Feels overall like a big gamble to me and like you, mate, not convinced it'll work, whilst passing the bill to the kids. I'm lost as to why austerity isn't needed? It was compulsory in 2010, with a lot less debt.

[Worthy4England]

I've voted Conservative all my life, but even I can see that any tax cuts needed to be weighted in favour of bottom up, not top down. This idea that inflation is running at 10% is absolute bollocks, it's around 20.
As per the MD of Iceland supermarkets, the real effect is in the prices of milk, bread, eggs etc. The lack of movement in the prices of legs of lamb and bottles of Champers etc are what's keeping the actual figure artificially down.
This is a massive, massive gamble. We can only hope for the best.

My issue is that even if the gamble pays off and there is this trickling down to help everyone else, it won’t be soon enough. People have problems now being unable to afford food / heating / mortgages / fuel. They need help and things that will benefit them now. Not in a few years once the millionaires have invested their extra cash and started to generate jobs / growth etc. All we will get is people who do work hard, and do have decent jobs struggling to get by. Hell, even I’m a bit worried that with interest rates rising my mortgage will probably be £300 a month more next year when it’s due for renewal, and my energy bills are £200 a month more. My wage hasn’t changed.

Yup. That's the problem. And the things that are causing inflation are diddly to do with consumer spending, other than they have no choice. So they're trying to suppress that spending through interest rates which force people into heating or eating (or accumulating private debt). It's fcuked.

[BWFC_Insane]

We didn’t need tax cuts. What we needed was an actual plan to fix the economy and that requires massive strategic investments alongside incentivising businesses to invest also.

It’s not very hard to work out we are locked in a low productivity, low wage cycle thanks to the Tories failed austerity and then the utter bollocks that has come after.

We need to create a whole new raft of jobs that pay well. The most sensible way to do that is huge investment in the green economy which we need anyway. And massively incentivise businesses to do so.

The nonsense we’ve seen today is shameful and deliberate. I’m convinced they know the games up but they’ve just come back to plunder some more for their rich mates and donors. I’m not far feeling that off some head on spikes wouldn’t go amiss - they’ve driven us to it.

[TANGODANCER]

Apropos of being a political lightweight I reckon, Anton Du Bek for Prime Minister...

[Hoboh]

We didn’t need tax cuts. What we needed was an actual plan to fix the economy and that requires massive strategic investments alongside incentivising businesses to invest also.

It’s not very hard to work out we are locked in a low productivity, low wage cycle thanks to the Tories failed austerity and then the utter bollocks that has come after.

We need to create a whole new raft of jobs that pay well. The most sensible way to do that is huge investment in the green economy which we need anyway. And massively incentivise businesses to do so.

The nonsense we’ve seen today is shameful and deliberate. I’m convinced they know the games up but they’ve just come back to plunder some more for their rich mates and donors. I’m not far feeling that off some head on spikes wouldn’t go amiss - they’ve driven us to it.

Suprise, suprise I was on-board until you mentioned the green shite. Do you not realise that green policy going back over the years is one of the main factors why this country is in the mire right now and accelerating it will only make matters worse for the next decade or so.

[BWFC_Insane]

We didn’t need tax cuts. What we needed was an actual plan to fix the economy and that requires massive strategic investments alongside incentivising businesses to invest also.

It’s not very hard to work out we are locked in a low productivity, low wage cycle thanks to the Tories failed austerity and then the utter bollocks that has come after.

We need to create a whole new raft of jobs that pay well. The most sensible way to do that is huge investment in the green economy which we need anyway. And massively incentivise businesses to do so.

The nonsense we’ve seen today is shameful and deliberate. I’m convinced they know the games up but they’ve just come back to plunder some more for their rich mates and donors. I’m not far feeling that off some head on spikes wouldn’t go amiss - they’ve driven us to it.

Suprise, suprise I was on-board until you mentioned the green shite. Do you not realise that green policy going back over the years is one of the main factors why this country is in the mire right now and accelerating it will only make matters worse for the next decade or so.

Are you ever going to wake up to the fact that the people who have been telling you to blame the foreigners, the EU, liberals and now green policy for all our problems are just plain out lying to you?

There is an opportunity with green technology to radically reform our economy and improve peoples living standards. Even if you can’t get on the carbon neutral bandwagon it’s happening anyway. No new petrol cars will be sold by 2030 and for example manufacturers are phasing them out ahead of it. We see why we need better renewable energy now too.

Regardless of the other stuff it’s a huge potential for economic growth considering we have few other avenues left.

[BWFC_Insane]

Just heard Rachel Reeves outline the exact economic plan I’ve been banging on about for years on BBC News. Finally Labour seem to have got themselves together around sensible modern economics.

At last.

Truss has trashed the pound and crashed the economy. Not bad going for three weeks most of which has been spent doing nothing whilst in mourning….

[Bruce Rioja]

Just heard Rachel Reeves outline the exact economic plan I’ve been banging on about for years on BBC News. Finally Labour seem to have got themselves together around sensible modern economics.

At last.

Truss has trashed the pound and crashed the economy. Not bad going for three weeks most of which has been spent doing nothing whilst in mourning….

Just read it, and guess what? I could vote for that - absolutely.

It's also nice to hear someone from the left coming out with a clear, structured alternative. I get sick to the back teeth of hearing Lammy, Ashworth, Rayner and so on simply slating the government without ever offering any alternative ideas..... on anything.

[BWFC_Insane]

Just heard Rachel Reeves outline the exact economic plan I’ve been banging on about for years on BBC News. Finally Labour seem to have got themselves together around sensible modern economics.

At last.

Truss has trashed the pound and crashed the economy. Not bad going for three weeks most of which has been spent doing nothing whilst in mourning….

Just read it, and guess what? I could vote for that - absolutely.

It's also nice to hear someone from the left coming out with a clear, structured alternative. I get sick to the back teeth of hearing Lammy, Ashworth, Rayner and so on simply slating the government without ever offering any alternative ideas..... on anything.

I suspect calling Reeves ‘from the left’ is a bit of a stretch but regardless she’s one of the better more sensible ones but has absolutely no image at all to hang it off or she’d be leader probably.

Agree on Lammy. Rayner has improved markedly in the last year now she’s in a cabinet of grown ups and Ashworth is a decent sort who wipes the floor with Coffey et al…

[Bruce Rioja]

Ashworth is a decent sort

I don't doubt he is, he just never has anything worthwhile to say.

Well, he's on at 10:15, and my money's on him focusing his sights on the sitting duck that is Kwarteng and his mini budget.

I see that the £ is currently at $1.06, so that'll be the price of everything that involves oil in its route to market (so everything then) going up further. There goes Christmas in New York then!

[Worthy4England]

I think Insano, convincing you that Rayner has improved isn't the thing that'll win or lose Labour the election. It's convincing lots of other people - I don't think she's going to do that - I think there's a real danger, she'll become 2024's Jeremy Corbyn. When I hear folks talk about her, she clearly winds their gears, whether that's real or imagined.

[BWFC_Insane]

I think Insano, convincing you that Rayner has improved isn't the thing that'll win or lose Labour the election. It's convincing lots of other people - I don't think she's going to do that - I think there's a real danger, she'll become 2024's Jeremy Corbyn. When I hear folks talk about her, she clearly winds their gears, whether that's real or imagined.

I disagree only in the sense that like Prescott I don’t think it really will matter. Nobody was voting for John Prescott as deputy pm nor Rayner but Labour won in 1997.

I think more pressing for them is having an economic plan and articulating it rather than just offering vague sentiments and finally they seem to be coming to the table with that.

I mean I’d not have Rayner on the front bench and I’m guessing if he had a choice Starmer wouldn’t either. She has though improved significantly and like Prescott though in an entirely different way helps Labour with their metropolitan base who are less keen on Starmer as he’s seen as too centrist. Like anything she’s very popular in certain demographics so it’s about the balance.

[Bruce Rioja]

When I asked Rayner a few questions on Twitter I was neither rude nor disrespectful. She could've ignored me but chose to block me instead. Lisa Nandy must be wondering how the feck Rayner's got ahead of her in the pecking order.
I disagree with BWFC-I here, Rayner is exactly the sort of person who puts voters off. I found Prescott to be chiefly laughable - especially when he tried to portray himself as having credibility.

[Worthy4England]

When I asked Rayner a few questions on Twitter I was neither rude nor disrespectful. She could've ignored me but chose to block me instead. Lisa Nandy must be wondering how the feck Rayner's got ahead of her in the pecking order.
I disagree with BWFC-I here, Rayner is exactly the sort of person who puts voters off. I found Prescott to be chiefly laughable - especially when he tried to portray himself as having credibility.

Yeah - I see it the same way, Brucie. Not only could she put voters off, she could do it, and Labour gets any decent messages lost in the shit storm.

[BWFC_Insane]

When I asked Rayner a few questions on Twitter I was neither rude nor disrespectful. She could've ignored me but chose to block me instead. Lisa Nandy must be wondering how the feck Rayner's got ahead of her in the pecking order.
I disagree with BWFC-I here, Rayner is exactly the sort of person who puts voters off. I found Prescott to be chiefly laughable - especially when he tried to portray himself as having credibility.

She puts some voters off. But Is incredibly popular amongst the metropolitan labour strongholds that Corbyn won. So it’s about holding the coalition of voter together. She’s there because the members voted for her as deputy so nobody has promoted her other than members.

I rate Nandy highly though I’d argue that she is ahead of Rayner in the pecking order. Deputy leader is an elected role and one that ultimately is meaningless.

Raab was deputy and again if I had to choose between him and Rayner it’s Angela no questions asked. But nobody really cares who the deputy is.

[Bruce Rioja]

As a slight aside, I was chatting with my younger brother earlier and we were discussing the price of oil in relation to the £/$ price as he has oil heating (we used to talk about cars, girls, football and noisy guitar bands )

What's happened to the veritable abundance of North Sea oil and gas which the SNP claim we're diddling them out of at every opportunity?