Moat Manhunt

[thebish]

After all this I'm most definitely interested to hear how those decrying the police action would have handled the situation. I mean, if you're complaining it was wrong, then what should have happened? Unless you have definitive views on it, then it's all so much protesting for the sake of it...is it not? If you know something is wrong, then you must have a view in what way it was wrong and what would have been the right way, given the circumstances. My own view is that not knowing the facts how can we reach any correct conclusion?

the only person on here decrying the police action on this thread is Worthy - nobody else has.

worthy's objection is that they wasted police time and money on 5 hrs of negotiation rather than just shoot him.

is it worthy you have in mind? if so - he has pretty much spelled out his view and quite extensively

if it's not worthy - then who? I cannot see any other post decrying the police action.

[Prufrock]

Yes, but whilst we were still on the subject, I was dying to see if, whilst continuing to suggest that he might not have committed the murder (highly unlikely), you would poo-poo the idea that he could have shot the police (in my opinion equally unlikely). You can no more prove that he couldn't have shot the police than we can currently prove that he didn't kill anyone earlier in the week. You seem to be happy to use an unlikely argument to support your case and discount something similar that I used to support mine. My contention is that if they don't need to run that risk, then they shouldn't have to.

I would generally prefer that judgement of guilt remained with Courts, although that too is nowhere near perfect. Good barristers can sway opinions...Having been through said establishment once or twice, I know this to be true. Not once can I say that the sides of the argument represented what occurred with more than a nod in the direction of "accuracy" and "facts" - generally from both sides.

Am I very trusting of the police? Hell no. During one of my appearances before the small man in the large chair, they lied unmercifully (they were actually right on the charge they'd bought against me), but the "case" that they built was so contrived, it could have featured on Jackanory.

On other occasions, I've seen people get off when I know for a fact that they did it.

I just have a fundamental belief that there's too much carrot and not enough stick at the minute, in favour of the criminals. I would be willing to trade in some rights (such as the possibility I might be shot for carrying a gun or that someone might drag me into their house at 0400 in the morning just to murder me) to redress the balance some.

They are not equally unlikely at all. The chances of Moat, holding a sawn of shotgun to his own head could have made a fatal shot on a police officer whilst surrounded by a shitload (technical term) is negligible. The chances a guy whose reaction to knowledge his ex has a new fella is to go on a shotgun rampage was mentally ill is not negligible. In this case it seems fairly obvious Moat did commit the earlier crimes. The chances of a situation arising where the offender with the gun was not guilty of earlier crimes is also above nil.

I don't for a second believe the justice in the courts is perfect, but I do believe citizens having the absolute right to a defence is a much, much better system than the police given powers of summary execution.

[Worthy4England]

Just a minor point Bish - I've not decried the police action - I've suggested that they should have had other powers to bring the stand off to a quicker conclusion, rather than facing a mad bloke refusing to put down a gun in the pi$$ing down rain for 6 hours.

[Hoboh]

Just a minor point Bish - I've not decried the police action - I've suggested that they should have had other powers to bring the stand off to a quicker conclusion, rather than facing a mad bloke refusing to put down a gun in the pi$$ing down rain for 6 hours.

I agree, "throw down the weapon and surrender or we open fire" sounds 'bout right.

[Worthy4England]

Yes, but whilst we were still on the subject, I was dying to see if, whilst continuing to suggest that he might not have committed the murder (highly unlikely), you would poo-poo the idea that he could have shot the police (in my opinion equally unlikely). You can no more prove that he couldn't have shot the police than we can currently prove that he didn't kill anyone earlier in the week. You seem to be happy to use an unlikely argument to support your case and discount something similar that I used to support mine. My contention is that if they don't need to run that risk, then they shouldn't have to.

I would generally prefer that judgement of guilt remained with Courts, although that too is nowhere near perfect. Good barristers can sway opinions...Having been through said establishment once or twice, I know this to be true. Not once can I say that the sides of the argument represented what occurred with more than a nod in the direction of "accuracy" and "facts" - generally from both sides.

Am I very trusting of the police? Hell no. During one of my appearances before the small man in the large chair, they lied unmercifully (they were actually right on the charge they'd bought against me), but the "case" that they built was so contrived, it could have featured on Jackanory.

On other occasions, I've seen people get off when I know for a fact that they did it.

I just have a fundamental belief that there's too much carrot and not enough stick at the minute, in favour of the criminals. I would be willing to trade in some rights (such as the possibility I might be shot for carrying a gun or that someone might drag me into their house at 0400 in the morning just to murder me) to redress the balance some.

They are not equally unlikely at all. The chances of Moat, holding a sawn of shotgun to his own head could have made a fatal shot on a police officer whilst surrounded by a shitload (technical term) is negligible. The chances a guy whose reaction to knowledge his ex has a new fella is to go on a shotgun rampage was mentally ill is not negligible. In this case it seems fairly obvious Moat did commit the earlier crimes. The chances of a situation arising where the offender with the gun was not guilty of earlier crimes is also above nil.

I don't for a second believe the justice in the courts is perfect, but I do believe citizens having the absolute right to a defence is a much, much better system than the police given powers of summary execution.

The citizen has the right to a trial by jury - if they by their actions choose it. All they have to do is put the gun down when ordered. Their rights to a trial haven't changed.

[thebish]

Just a minor point Bish - I've not decried the police action - I've suggested that they should have had other powers to bring the stand off to a quicker conclusion, rather than facing a mad bloke refusing to put down a gun in the pi$$ing down rain for 6 hours.

fair enough - in which case Tango's post is even more bizarre..

Tango is:

most definitely interested to hear how those decrying the police action would have handled the situation

who on earth is that???

NOBODY on this thread has uttered one word of criticism of the police's actions....


incidentally...

(the police - if they wanted to - could easily have simply shot him. let's face it, they pretty much got away with shooting an innocent and unarmed bloke several times in the head on a crowded tube train... so - this notorious killer would have been easily explained.)

I understand your argument - indeed sympathise with its simplicity - but I see no evidence that it is how the UK police want to proceed - nor a power they crave...

[TANGODANCER]

Just a minor point Bish - I've not decried the police action - I've suggested that they should have had other powers to bring the stand off to a quicker conclusion, rather than facing a mad bloke refusing to put down a gun in the pi$$ing down rain for 6 hours.

fair enough - in which case Tango's post is even more bizarre..

Tango is:

most definitely interested to hear how those decrying the police action would have handled the situation

who on earth is that???

NOBODY on this thread has uttered one word of criticism of the police's actions....

A hell of a lot of people, if forums, media etc are to be at all believed. Did Tango actually specify "on this thread"? Can't seem to find that bit. I know you'll come back with something to the contrary of course, but hey ho. My posts are bizzarre in the same way yours always always make everyone appear wrong who disagrees with you. Give it a rest and get back on the topic hey?

[thebish]

Just a minor point Bish - I've not decried the police action - I've suggested that they should have had other powers to bring the stand off to a quicker conclusion, rather than facing a mad bloke refusing to put down a gun in the pi$$ing down rain for 6 hours.

fair enough - in which case Tango's post is even more bizarre..

Tango is:

most definitely interested to hear how those decrying the police action would have handled the situation

who on earth is that???

NOBODY on this thread has uttered one word of criticism of the police's actions....

A hell of a lot of people, if forums, media etc are to be at all believed. Did Tango actually specify "on this thread"? Can't seem to find that bit. I know you'll come back with something to the contrary of course, but hey ho. My posts are bizzarre in the same way yours always always make everyone appear wrong who disagrees with you. Give it a rest and get back on the topic hey?

ooh - third person!

this is what Tango wrote - note the use of you and your - implying the people being addressed - rather than them and they - referring to random non-forum people...

After all this I'm most definitely interested to hear how those decrying the police action would have handled the situation. I mean, if you're complaining it was wrong, then what should have happened?

how is a post about Moat and how the police responded in a thread about Moat NOT on topic?

[Zulus Thousand of em]

Tango, Bish,

This is becoming incredibly boring. Please kiss and make up.

Thanks

[thebish]

mwah!

[TANGODANCER]

Tango, Bish,

This is becoming incredibly boring. Please kiss and make up. Thanks

Peace pact, yes. Kiss? Never, not ever.

[Lord Kangana]

Pax peregrinus.

according to babelfish.

[Zulus Thousand of em]

Good. Now, if you could both try to get out more...

[thebish]

Tango, Bish,

This is becoming incredibly boring. Please kiss and make up. Thanks

Peace pact, yes. Kiss? Never, not ever.

kiss my ring Tangster - the Zulu demands it....

[Zulus Thousand of em]

Tango, Bish,

This is becoming incredibly boring. Please kiss and make up. Thanks

Peace pact, yes. Kiss? Never, not ever.

kiss my ring Tangster - the Zulu demands it....

But then he gets to stick your crozier up your chuff. Only fair.

[thebish]

Good. Now, if you could both try to get out more...

we didn't become joint winners of the TW exceptional Contribution to the Forum Award for going out more!!! that's preposterous!

[Zulus Thousand of em]

Good. Now, if you could both try to get out more...

we didn't become joint winners of the TW exceptional Contribution to the Forum Award for going out more!!! that's preposterous!

[Hoboh]

Just a minor point Bish - I've not decried the police action - I've suggested that they should have had other powers to bring the stand off to a quicker conclusion, rather than facing a mad bloke refusing to put down a gun in the pi$$ing down rain for 6 hours.

fair enough - in which case Tango's post is even more bizarre..

Tango is:

most definitely interested to hear how those decrying the police action would have handled the situation

who on earth is that???

NOBODY on this thread has uttered one word of criticism of the police's actions....


incidentally...

(the police - if they wanted to - could easily have simply shot him. let's face it, they pretty much got away with shooting an innocent and unarmed bloke several times in the head on a crowded tube train... so - this notorious killer would have been easily explained.)

I understand your argument - indeed sympathise with its simplicity - but I see no evidence that it is how the UK police want to proceed - nor a power they crave...

Ah but if he was not too worried that he was in this country illegally and stopped when challenged, I think a good roughing up may have been the order of the day at which point no doubt Mrs TB and her ilk would have extracted a wedge of tax payers cash by means of compensation for him to take back to Brazil or where ever

[Gary the Enfield]

Just a minor point Bish - I've not decried the police action - I've suggested that they should have had other powers to bring the stand off to a quicker conclusion, rather than facing a mad bloke refusing to put down a gun in the pi$$ing down rain for 6 hours.

fair enough - in which case Tango's post is even more bizarre..

Tango is:

most definitely interested to hear how those decrying the police action would have handled the situation

who on earth is that???

NOBODY on this thread has uttered one word of criticism of the police's actions....


incidentally...

(the police - if they wanted to - could easily have simply shot him. let's face it, they pretty much got away with shooting an innocent and unarmed bloke several times in the head on a crowded tube train... so - this notorious killer would have been easily explained.)

I understand your argument - indeed sympathise with its simplicity - but I see no evidence that it is how the UK police want to proceed - nor a power they crave...

Ah but if he was not too worried that he was in this country illegally and stopped when challenged, I think a good roughing up may have been the order of the day at which point no doubt Mrs TB and her ilk would have extracted a wedge of tax payers cash by means of compensation for him to take back to Brazil or where ever

He wasn't challenged. He was followed from his flat to the station, armed police were called and he was shot in the tube carriage. No warnings were given.

Also,

He wasn't in the country illegally.

The family of Menezes however deny this, and Foreign Secretary Jack Straw stated that he believed Menezes was living in the UK legally, but had no precise information to confirm this.[2] Immigration records in fact show that Menezes entered the Republic of Ireland from France on 23 April 2005. There are no records to show the exact date that he returned to the UK; however, under the Common Travel Area system, a foreign citizen entering the UK through the Republic of Ireland has an automatic right to remain for three months. Therefore, Menezes was lawfully in the UK on the day he was killed, irrespective of his previous immigration status.[3]

[Hoboh]

Just a minor point Bish - I've not decried the police action - I've suggested that they should have had other powers to bring the stand off to a quicker conclusion, rather than facing a mad bloke refusing to put down a gun in the pi$$ing down rain for 6 hours.

fair enough - in which case Tango's post is even more bizarre..

Tango is:

most definitely interested to hear how those decrying the police action would have handled the situation

who on earth is that???

NOBODY on this thread has uttered one word of criticism of the police's actions....


incidentally...

(the police - if they wanted to - could easily have simply shot him. let's face it, they pretty much got away with shooting an innocent and unarmed bloke several times in the head on a crowded tube train... so - this notorious killer would have been easily explained.)

I understand your argument - indeed sympathise with its simplicity - but I see no evidence that it is how the UK police want to proceed - nor a power they crave...

Ah but if he was not too worried that he was in this country illegally and stopped when challenged, I think a good roughing up may have been the order of the day at which point no doubt Mrs TB and her ilk would have extracted a wedge of tax payers cash by means of compensation for him to take back to Brazil or where ever

He wasn't challenged. He was followed from his flat to the station, armed police were called and he was shot in the tube carriage. No warnings were given.

Also,

He wasn't in the country illegally.

The family of Menezes however deny this, and Foreign Secretary Jack Straw stated that he believed Menezes was living in the UK legally, but had no precise information to confirm this.[2] Immigration records in fact show that Menezes entered the Republic of Ireland from France on 23 April 2005. There are no records to show the exact date that he returned to the UK; however, under the Common Travel Area system, a foreign citizen entering the UK through the Republic of Ireland has an automatic right to remain for three months. Therefore, Menezes was lawfully in the UK on the day he was killed, irrespective of his previous immigration status.[3]

He never jumped a barrier?