Poetry!!!

[Prufrock]

When we translate, we are doing so to prove we understand the language, and as such, must try to keep it as literal as possible. In doing so, I think we lose something.

I remember quite recently having this discussion with my daughter's french teacher. She was translating something which contained the mild expletive "sacré coeur!" which she translated "sacred heart!"

I suggested to her that in English you would never say that - and suggested she translated it as "Flipping Norah!"

The french teacher maintained that "Sacred heart!" was the answer that would get her better marks....

Another similar example is the translation of 'merde' into English as 'shit', when it isn't that strong in French. Amusingly this led to my french exchange partner saying 'oh shit' when he spilt his drink at a familly dinner. Well, it made me laugh. I think that is more ridiculous in French however, as that is a language taught to speak adn to communicate in, and as such, saying 'Sacred Heart' would clearly be ridiculous. I understand where they are coming from with the Classics, because they are very difficult languages, and the discussion of the text as poetry, or as prose, is only secondary in these modules to the actual learning of the language. We do do the 'literature' side of things, but normally in translation. It is odd, amongst classics, translation is sort of as a frivolous activity. The penguin translations etc. you find, are often written by scholars in their leisure time, as a way of paying for their more professional 'acceptable' studies.

[Prufrock]

Wow, didn't realise I'd have to go to page two to find this.

Following on from the discussion in yon Blackpool thread, John Agard's 'Half Caste'. I did it for GCSE, and it was one of the few that stuck, and that I was interested in at the time, still at an age where poetry was 'gay'. Thoughts?

Excuse me
standing on one leg
I’m half-caste.

Explain yuself
wha yu mean
when yu say half-caste
yu mean when Picasso
mix red an green
is a half-caste canvas?
explain yuself
wha yu mean
when yu say half-caste
yu mean when light an shadow
mix in de sky
is a half-caste weather?
well in dat case
england weather
nearly always half-caste
in fact some o dem cloud
half-caste till dem overcast
so spiteful dem don’t want de sun pass
ah rass?
explain yuself
wha yu mean
when yu say half-caste
yu mean tchaikovsky
sit down at dah piano
an mix a black key
wid a white key
is a half-caste symphony?

Explain yuself
wha yu mean
Ah listening to yu wid de keen
half of mih ear
Ah looking at yu wid de keen
half of mih eye
an when I’m introduced to yu
I’m sure you’ll understand
why I offer yu half-a-hand
an when I sleep at night
I close half-a-eye
consequently when I dream
I dream half-a-dream
an when moon begin to glow
I half-caste human being
cast half-a-shadow
but yu must come back tomorrow
wid de whole of yu eye
an de whole of yu ear
an de whole of yu mind.

an I will tell yu
de other half
of my story.

[Zulus Thousand of em]

Thoughts?

Let's imagine the scenario where this person is born in Bolton (or Northampton, London, anywhere you like) of one West Indian and one English parent. Why is he talking in a mock Caribbean accent? Does that not show disrespect to West Indian people? Is it not hard to keep it up 24/7?

Always wondered, that's all.

[Worthy4England]

Thoughts?

We've not moved out of the age where poetry is still gay.

Seriously though, it was lobbed up in a different thread, as if to support a point.

Reality is it's one person's view of the world - which neither makes it right or wrong - just their view.

This whole "labelling sections of society" isn't going to go away. Whatever label is used, will have the connotations that the user spins into them.

It stretches across every section of society, not just those with different racial roots.

[thebish]

Didn't do that when I was at school (but then, I was at school a lot more than 15yrs ago!) - so I've never come across it!

I like it - puts me in mind of Benjamin Zephaniah (who I don't think has appeared here yet) - and not just because of the patois - but the direct "voice-to-camera" protest-with-humour nature of the thing...

on a similar theme of the dislike terminology used about black people....

White Comedy

I waz whitemailed
By a white witch,
Wid white magic
An white lies,
Branded by a white sheep
I slaved as a whitesmith
Near a white spot
Where I suffered whitewater fever.
Whitelisted as a whiteleg
I waz in de white book
As a master of white art,
It waz like white death.

People called me white jack
Some hailed me as a white wog,
So I joined de white watch
Trained as a white guard
Lived off the white economy.
Caught and beaten by de whiteshirts
I waz condemned to a white mass,
Don't worry,
I shall be writing to de Black House. (Benjamin Zephaniah)

[Zulus Thousand of em]

Bish,

How many of those terms in the poem do you think were originally called "black" because they alluded to people with black skin being evil or inferior? If the answer is "none" or "not many" then what is the point of the poem?

If you think any of them were named for those reasons, which ones? Please elaborate.

[Worthy4England]

Bish,

How many of those terms in the poem do you think were originally called "black" because they alluded to people with black skin being evil or inferior? If the answer is "none" or "not many" then what is the point of the poem?

If you think any of them were named for those reasons, which ones? Please elaborate.

Indeed good sir...

I started with blackmail, which seemed to have originated in the 16th Century where Scottish farmers paid their rent in either white mail (silver or money) or black mail (produce or livestock).

Anyhow, back to my whiteboard...

[thebish]

Bish,

How many of those terms in the poem do you think were originally called "black" because they alluded to people with black skin being evil or inferior? If the answer is "none" or "not many" then what is the point of the poem?

If you think any of them were named for those reasons, which ones? Please elaborate.

did I say any of them were?

But as you ask - what does the phrase "black sheep of the family" mean - and why?

also - the "dark arts" and the "black arts" (black magic) - fairly ubiquitously meant negatively - why?


Zephaniah is taking an extreme - exaggerating - as humour often does - in order to write a poem. His point is that pervading our language is a predominant notion that black="sinister" (and that word itself implies left-handedness is a bit weird) and white=pure/good

he's just pointing it out in an engaging way.


as for the "point" of the poem - you;d have to ask Benjamin

my point in posting it was (as I said) was that it took a similar theme as the on Pru posted in a similar style - the one reminded me of the other...

(is that a good enough reason to post it?)

[William the White]

Bish,

How many of those terms in the poem do you think were originally called "black" because they alluded to people with black skin being evil or inferior? If the answer is "none" or "not many" then what is the point of the poem?

If you think any of them were named for those reasons, which ones? Please elaborate.

Indeed good sir...

I started with blackmail, which seemed to have originated in the 16th Century where Scottish farmers paid their rent in either white mail (silver or money) or black mail (produce or livestock).

Anyhow, back to my whiteboard...

Benjamin Z is just having a laugh. It's a playful poem. It's not meant to be taken literally or seriously.

He's an excellent writer though - recommend his short stage play, that's also been produced on radio, called LISTEN TO YOUR PARENTS... About growing up in a violent family, told from the pov of an 11 year old boy whose dream is to get a trial for Villa. I use it with first years writing drama students. It's excellent.

[Zulus Thousand of em]

Bish,

How many of those terms in the poem do you think were originally called "black" because they alluded to people with black skin being evil or inferior? If the answer is "none" or "not many" then what is the point of the poem?

If you think any of them were named for those reasons, which ones? Please elaborate.

did I say any of them were?

You didn't need to.

But as you ask - what does the phrase "black sheep of the family" mean - and why?

Seriously? The vast majority of sheep are white. Occasionally a black one is born. Therefore it's different. It has been in common English usage since at least 1792 to denote a bad or different character.

also - the "dark arts" and the "black arts" (black magic) - fairly ubiquitously meant negatively - why?

Dark arts are surely self-explanatory? Secret therefore dark. Black arts goes back to at least 1590 to denote magic or necromancy. Black magic (c 1882) a term, originally from France which describes the type of magic that involved the invocation of devils as opposed to white magic, that which did not recourse to the agency of personal spirits.

Zephaniah is taking an extreme - exaggerating - as humour often does - in order to write a poem. His point is that pervading our language is a predominant notion that black="sinister" (and that word itself implies left-handedness is a bit weird) and white=pure/good

he's just pointing it out in an engaging way.

None of those phrases have any link whatsoever to the colour of a man's skin - apart from in a PC world (and I don't mean where you buy your printer cartridges!) What do you ask for when you need a black refill, by the way?


as for the "point" of the poem - you;d have to ask Benjamin

my point in posting it was (as I said) was that it took a similar theme as the on Pru posted in a similar style - the one reminded me of the other...

(is that a good enough reason to post it?)

You don't need a reason to post from me, or anyone else. I just wanted someone to tell me what the point of this poem was. You have given me your take on the poet's point of view. I don't quite buy into it.[/quote]

[Worthy4England]

Stirling job Zulu - keep it up.

I would be surprised if the "dark" connotation had anything at all to do with the colour of anyones skin. Surely it's likely to be more to do with people being scared of the dark (whether by superstition or for any other reason)?

In a similar vein, whilst you could describe the night as being a colour other than black, I think black sums it up quite well.

[thebish]

Seriously? The vast majority of sheep are white. Occasionally a black one is born. Therefore it's different. It has been in common English usage since at least 1792 to denote a bad or different character.

indeed - hence - black sheep = different sheep - but not an explanation as to why it means "bad". Why is the black sheep of the family always the bad one?

if a person in a family of rogues turns out to be "good" - we would not describe them as the black sheep of the family simply because they are different...

also - the "dark arts" and the "black arts" (black magic) - fairly ubiquitously meant negatively - why?

Dark arts are surely self-explanatory? Secret therefore dark. Black arts goes back to at least 1590 to denote magic or necromancy. Black magic (c 1882) a term, originally from France which describes the type of magic that involved the invocation of devils as opposed to white magic, that which did not recourse to the agency of personal spirits. [/colour]

indeed - but why is "secret=black?" - you might get away with saying that "bad" magic is done at night - which is a fair point (and - I believe where the black=bad notion comes from) - but, you then say that another reason is that it invokes devils...

but - again - why would something that invokes devils be "black" unless we automatically have a linguistic notion that black=bad?

this isn't something I would rail against - but it does seem fairly self-evident that we have that linguistic notion. Personally I think it is more connected to "night" and fear of the dark than it is to black people - but it isn't that hard to imagine why the notion would eventually irritate a black person.

it's fairly evident whenever we have a day where summat bad happens - we describe the day as "black" Wednesday (or whichever day it was) if the ERM goes tits-up (for instance).

It isn't (in my opinion) specifically black people who lie behind this linguiostic notion (I think we agree there) - far from it - but I think I'd take a lot of persuading to accept that in the english language there isn't a notional black=bad/white=good vibe - and it's a fairly simple step (since we also call people "black") that this inbuilt notion might be a cause of concern for them.

[thebish]

Stirling job Zulu - keep it up.

I would be surprised if the "dark" connotation had anything at all to do with the colour of anyones skin. Surely it's likely to be more to do with people being scared of the dark (whether by superstition or for any other reason)?

In a similar vein, whilst you could describe the night as being a colour other than black, I think black sums it up quite well.

down here in this here London, the colour of night is very far from black - it is a hazy orange noise-pollution glow!

but I agree entirely about the origins of "black=bad" being fear of the dark and the night time being when "bad things happen". None of the "black" language is a direct reference or has its origin in black people - but that was never my point (not was it Benjamin's as far as I can tell)

the black=night=bad notion has influenced our language - and made us associate black with bad

it's not a huge stretch of the imagination to see how it is possible that people who are then described as "black" might be a bit irritated by the continued notion, and Benjamin is pointing it out in a fluffy and amusing way - that's all.

[Worthy4England]

Stirling job Zulu - keep it up.

I would be surprised if the "dark" connotation had anything at all to do with the colour of anyones skin. Surely it's likely to be more to do with people being scared of the dark (whether by superstition or for any other reason)?

In a similar vein, whilst you could describe the night as being a colour other than black, I think black sums it up quite well.

down here in this here London, the colour of night is very far from black - it is a hazy orange noise-pollution glow!

but I agree entirely about the origins of "black=bad" being fear of the dark and the night time being when "bad things happen". None of the "black" language is a direct reference or has its origin in black people - but that was never my point (not was it Benjamin's as far as I can tell)

the black=night=bad notion has influenced our language - and made us associate black with bad

it's not a huge stretch of the imagination to see how it is possible that people who are then described as "black" might be a bit irritated by the continued notion, and Benjamin is pointing it out in a fluffy and amusing way - that's all.

Indeed - but there's those things in life that are easy to change - and those that ain't.

I actually don't know anyone who's black anyhow. Varying shades of brown, yellow and off-white, maybe. But black - can't think of a one!

[Bruce Rioja]

But as you ask - what does the phrase "black sheep of the family" mean - and why?

An excellent pint, usually!

[thebish]

Stirling job Zulu - keep it up.

I would be surprised if the "dark" connotation had anything at all to do with the colour of anyones skin. Surely it's likely to be more to do with people being scared of the dark (whether by superstition or for any other reason)?

In a similar vein, whilst you could describe the night as being a colour other than black, I think black sums it up quite well.

down here in this here London, the colour of night is very far from black - it is a hazy orange noise-pollution glow!

but I agree entirely about the origins of "black=bad" being fear of the dark and the night time being when "bad things happen". None of the "black" language is a direct reference or has its origin in black people - but that was never my point (not was it Benjamin's as far as I can tell)

the black=night=bad notion has influenced our language - and made us associate black with bad

it's not a huge stretch of the imagination to see how it is possible that people who are then described as "black" might be a bit irritated by the continued notion, and Benjamin is pointing it out in a fluffy and amusing way - that's all.

Indeed - but there's those things in life that are easy to change - and those that ain't.

I actually don't know anyone who's black anyhow. Varying shades of brown, yellow and off-white, maybe. But black - can't think of a one!

I don't imagine Benjamin thought his poem would change that - he was just playfully having his say..

as for the varying shades.... whatever shades you discern, you're surely not denying that we do call some people "black"? (and the "night" that you described as "black" is hardly ever "black" either - but it didn't stop you describing it so..) Nor do I imagine you know anyone who is truly "white"...

[Prufrock]

Thoughts?

Let's imagine the scenario where this person is born in Bolton (or Northampton, London, anywhere you like) of one West Indian and one English parent. Why is he talking in a mock Caribbean accent? Does that not show disrespect to West Indian people? Is it not hard to keep it up 24/7?

Always wondered, that's all.

He was born in Guyana, to one Guyanan parent, one (white) portugese parent, then moved to Britain in his twenties. The point of the poem is the term half caste implies inferiority. We think of the term half-caste as meaning half one race/colour, half another. Why half, why not both, why not for instance, dual caste. Mixed race people often feel rejected by both sides of their heritage. Not only that, but it is the only instance I can think of where caste is used in this manner. Usually caste refers to a social status, similar to how 'class' is used in Britain, half-caste then has connotations with social inferiority.

You mention the language used, and it is done so deliberately. All the themes involved are white european, as is part of his heritage; Tchaikovsky, Picasso, the grey weather, yet the style, language, and dialect, are very carribean. His two cultures are not seperate, but he, like the poem is the sum of both, and not 'half' anything.

I like the poem Bishy posted, and think there are great similarities. Both have a a humour to them. Neither are preaching, but point out what it is like on the other side of certain phrases, words, or linguistic ideas. Until I read that poem, I'd never given a thought to the term 'half-caste' but having read it you see a point of view a white person otherwise wouldn't.

[William the White]

Pru does it for me! So the poem started you on an interesting journey of self-discovery... Good reason to defend poetry...

[Worthy4England]

Stirling job Zulu - keep it up.

I would be surprised if the "dark" connotation had anything at all to do with the colour of anyones skin. Surely it's likely to be more to do with people being scared of the dark (whether by superstition or for any other reason)?

In a similar vein, whilst you could describe the night as being a colour other than black, I think black sums it up quite well.

down here in this here London, the colour of night is very far from black - it is a hazy orange noise-pollution glow!

but I agree entirely about the origins of "black=bad" being fear of the dark and the night time being when "bad things happen". None of the "black" language is a direct reference or has its origin in black people - but that was never my point (not was it Benjamin's as far as I can tell)

the black=night=bad notion has influenced our language - and made us associate black with bad

it's not a huge stretch of the imagination to see how it is possible that people who are then described as "black" might be a bit irritated by the continued notion, and Benjamin is pointing it out in a fluffy and amusing way - that's all.

Indeed - but there's those things in life that are easy to change - and those that ain't.

I actually don't know anyone who's black anyhow. Varying shades of brown, yellow and off-white, maybe. But black - can't think of a one!

I don't imagine Benjamin thought his poem would change that - he was just playfully having his say..

as for the varying shades.... whatever shades you discern, you're surely not denying that we do call some people "black"? (and the "night" that you described as "black" is hardly ever "black" either - but it didn't stop you describing it so..)

I would contend that the night is invariably black as it's generally caused by the absence of light. By the time it reaches us, then orange in this part of the world may generally be a more apt description, but I doubt it would have been hugely applicable in the middle ages.

No I'm not denying that we call some people black - I'm disputing the connection between the two, which is often made - I don't happen to agree we are made to associate black with bad and it therefore follows that "black people" must be essentially bad - I don't think it works like that at all.

I suspect that if all "black" people were "green" there would still the same problems that stem from them being a different colour (regardless of what that colour is).

[William the White]

I suspect that if all "black" people were "green" there would still the same problems that stem from them being a different colour (regardless of what that colour is).

Does anyone remember a brill little movie called The Boy with Green Hair? A beautiful little parable about being an outsider, directed byJjoseph Losey, who, i think, was driven out of America as a film director by mcCartheyites persecution...

Lovely film...