This weeks RIP's........

[Prufrock]

Pre-fecking-cisely.

If you can't afford to pay your staff enough to live without the state having to subsidise their pay, then your business model isn't good enough, in the same way you're f*cked if you can't pay suppliers or the tax man.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I'm not sure minimum wage is a Tory evil, other than they all were whipped to vote against (similarly Lab and Libdem were whipped to vote for iirc). I think it's interesting that Crow gets plenty of vitriol pointed in his direction for securing a good deal for his members, with phrases like "Economic terrorism", but the suggestion that a rise in the minimum wages that terrifies employees because they'd then be on short shifts or lose their jobs, is just a fact of life.

Yes, we've been over the history of the minimum wage 17 years ago several times before. As I say, the question is not really whether a minimum wage will cause a lot of people to be out of work who otherwise wouldn't be, but at what level this happens. As it is, it was set very low in a booming economy. Germany has not had a minimum wage in all that time - it is not a self-evidently obvious solution to anything, even in a country of social democrats.

And I have no vitriol for Crow in particular. I just don't believe in a post-Crow lottery in which your rights depend on how good your representative is in your field.

[Gary the Enfield]

I'm not sure minimum wage is a Tory evil, other than they all were whipped to vote against (similarly Lab and Libdem were whipped to vote for iirc). I think it's interesting that Crow gets plenty of vitriol pointed in his direction for securing a good deal for his members, with phrases like "Economic terrorism", but the suggestion that a rise in the minimum wages that terrifies employees because they'd then be on short shifts or lose their jobs, is just a fact of life.

Yes, we've been over the history of the minimum wage 17 years ago several times before. As I say, the question is not really whether a minimum wage will cause a lot of people to be out of work who otherwise wouldn't be, but at what level this happens. As it is, it was set very low in a booming economy. Germany has not had a minimum wage in all that time - it is not a self-evidently obvious solution to anything, even in a country of social democrats.

And I have no vitriol for Crow in particular. I just don't believe in a post-Crow lottery in which your rights depend on how good your representative is in your field.

(applause)

[Worthy4England]

Didn't George Osborne recently back a rise to £7 per hour? (Albeit on the back of it being "nowt to do with him", if it went wrong.)

The Low Pay Commission has just recommended £6.50, but that's a figure likely to not be near the "breaking point"

There's lots of statistics on the Low Pay Commission website, that you might be able to use, to pursue your interest in where the breaking point is. I suspect the problem is, that there isn't a set that everyone agrees with.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Didn't George Osborne recently back a rise to £7 per hour? (Albeit on the back of it being "nowt to do with him", if it went wrong.)

The Low Pay Commission has just recommended £6.50, but that's a figure likely to not be near the "breaking point"

There's lots of statistics on the Low Pay Commission website, that you might be able to use, to pursue your interest in where the breaking point is. I suspect the problem is, that there isn't a set that everyone agrees with.

You talk as if this idea of a 'breaking point' is a niche fetish I have. Isn't it THE policy question in this area? Of course people will disagree on all sorts of things (as with every other policy question), including on the subject of how many people losing their jobs would make the rest being paid more undesirable.

George Osborne punting unreasoned figures out there when he has no direct control over the level doesn't strike me as being particularly helpful, incidentally. If he has some analysis to add to the discussion then great - let's hear it.

[Worthy4England]

Didn't George Osborne recently back a rise to £7 per hour? (Albeit on the back of it being "nowt to do with him", if it went wrong.)

The Low Pay Commission has just recommended £6.50, but that's a figure likely to not be near the "breaking point"

There's lots of statistics on the Low Pay Commission website, that you might be able to use, to pursue your interest in where the breaking point is. I suspect the problem is, that there isn't a set that everyone agrees with.

You talk as if this idea of a 'breaking point' is a niche fetish I have. Isn't it THE policy question in this area? Of course people will disagree on all sorts of things (as with every other policy question), including on the subject of how many people losing their jobs would make the rest being paid more undesirable.

George Osborne punting unreasoned figures out there when he has no direct control over the level doesn't strike me as being particularly helpful, incidentally. If he has some analysis to add to the discussion then great - let's hear it.

Nosiree, not meant as a niche fetish.

I guess where l'm at, is if they thought (for example) that the current breaking point was somewhere in the region of (stupid figure) £17 per hour, but they're currently setting around £6.50, then there may well be a prevailing view that it's not worth the biscuit of trying to ascertain the absolute upper boundary, as they've no intention of going near it, so to some extent it would only satisfy acedemic debate.

When the figure was originally set, it clearly didn't break anything at a macro level, so I think they make movements relative to that base, without re-examining whether they could do something significantly more radical. Dunno whether they've re-examined the base sine it came in..

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I agree and would wholeheartedly back such an examination.

[Worthy4England]

Might be too much of a hot potato, given that largely, most people now understand it's part of the landscape. Not sure radical change would help politically (if I was a politician). Report says it should be £10, business will be up in arms, report says £4 and unions and low pay will be up in arms. Maybe the uneasy status quo is the politically best line to follow. It goes up 3% this year, the employers point to redundancies but at a macro-economic level nowt much will probably change. Some individual businesses will no doubt be impacted.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Such a depressing world we live in. Anyway, I'm sorry this has taken over a thread about the death of a bloke far too young.

[TANGODANCER]

Just been notified a bloke I was at school with, and years later caught up with at Deane golf club has passed on. So many old friends checking out too early. R.I.P Gerry.

[Worthy4England]

Condolences Tango.

[Zulus Thousand of em]

Tony Benn.

He dead.

[Worthy4England]

He is, didn't agree with all his views, but RIP.

[Bruce Rioja]

When I was younger he was known as Anthony Wedgewood Benn. When did he become all casual? Was it after the Ali G interview?

He was certainly fond of a good shag.

RIP.

[Harry Genshaw]

When I was younger he was known as Anthony Wedgewood Benn. When did he become all casual? Was it after the Ali G interview?

He was certainly fond of a good shag.

RIP.

He gave it up as it was a hereditary title (I think)

Always liked the guy and always thought he was a bit bonkers too.

RIP TB

[Gary the Enfield]

When I was younger he was known as Anthony Wedgewood Benn. When did he become all casual? Was it after the Ali G interview?

He was certainly fond of a good shag.

RIP.

He gave it up as it was a hereditary title (I think)

Always liked the guy and always thought he was a bit bonkers too.

RIP TB

His son now inherits it doesn't he?

[William the White]

I heard Tony Benn speak many times - he was passionate, witty and inspiring.

His passing marks the end of the last leader of a century-long socialist tendency within the Labour Party, notable for its commitment to parliamentary politics, the welfare state, a planned economy, trade union rights, the regulation of capitalism and its hostility towards 'revolutionary' posers and adventurers. It turned out some real political giants - from Keir Hardie to Aneurin Bevan, to Michael Foot and to Benn himself.

This tendency is all but finished, its last remnants - people likeJeremy Corbyn and Ken Livingstone - aging and incoherent in selling a vision for change. It never truly commanded the Labour Party, though it came close.

RIP Tony Benn.

[bobo the clown]

Don't think so Gary. Wedgewood Been's father was made a Viscount after being an MP. It was both a reward and an opportunity to keep him in politics after losing his seat. On his demise young Tony took the title but set about ridding himself of it. That was in 1963-64 btw. So before the active memory of most of us.

It was post his time ar Westminster School and New College, Oxford. No bog standard education there.

I think it was totally relinquished. If it wasn't then his kids have had plenty of time to have dodged that bullet already.

Mad as a frog and too theoretical to ever take the very top offices. Could be quite charming tjough a friend who was Michael Foot's bag carrier in the 1980's said he was very sour and bitter during that period as he felt he'd been overlooked for leader of the party and, in his view, Labour went soft on Socialism (in Foot's time ... I ask you).


He redeveloped his better nature in fact when he semi-retired and was treated more as a National Treasure by the party and the media.

Not my cuppa at all but a man of substance.

[Lord Kangana]

I think the world is a lesser place for his passing.

I await The Sun revelation that he actually lived in a house (with accompanying picture of a house to illustrate the point, in case we missed it) and therefore couldn't have held the views he did.

[Prufrock]