The Politics Thread

[thebish]

Is Cameron on drugs? He's managed 40-odd more seats than Labour, despite them having the least popular leader since Pol Pot and an economy in an utter f*ckin mess? Its not a success.

Ooh wait, he's just backtracked on everything he's just said.

Ok, my bet is a referendum on voting reform as a carrot for the Libdems.

he's just made a total non-offer which basically says we won't have a coalition - you can't have any ministerial positions - we will do the tory manifesto plus anything that we already agree about. we'll have a long-grass parliamentary commission talking-shop about electoral reform

then he cynically invoked the troops to suggest that we had to agree with him for their sake...

if the lib dems agree to that - then they are monumentally stupid and will lose all credibility with the electorate.

[Lord Kangana]

Well they'll never give them PR, and they certainly won't compromise on Europe. Or Trident. Or Tax.

I really can't see it.

Clegg may well haave played the greatest piece of brinksmanship ever by getting Dave to show his hand. Then again he may just be a f*cking idiot. We'll see in the next few days.

[thebish]

Well they'll never give them PR, and they certainly won't compromise on Europe. Or Trident. Or Tax.

I really can't see it.

Clegg may well haave played the greatest piece of brinksmanship ever by getting Dave to show his hand. Then again he may just be a f*cking idiot. We'll see in the next few days.

I'k kind of hoping that clegg's offer is the result of a pre-existing plan with labour's people - to flush cameron out - call his bluff - and then be seen to have given him the chance he said he would - and then form a coalition wiht labour...

however...

such a coalition with labour would also have to depend on other smaller parties - so would be fecking creaky - and maybe the worst of all worlds.

i think the best option for the libdems would be to let Dave try to form a minority govt and wait for a second election and then stand formally as a lib/lab coalition with election reform as the hot-button issue. then hope to get a lib-lab working majority.

[ratbert]

I think Clegg may have already smoked Cameron out. Nick'll keep Dave on tenterhooks for 24 hours as he laughs at the offer of an "all party committee of inquiry" into electoral reform and the refusal to back down on Europe, immigration and Trident. In the meantime Gordon comes back with an improved offer, and Dave is told to f**k off. Interesting that Alex Salmond has said the SNP and Plaid are open to working with Brown as well.

Of course the above could all be ballcocks, and the situation will turn again in a few hours. Caroline Lucas for PM, anyone?

[thebish]

meanwhile....

Labour is totally cleaning up in the local council elections while the tories and lib dems are losing councillors hand-over-fist!

[William the White]

Yes we do, I agree, but not with Trident, I would much rather get out of Afghanistan, sit at arms lengh and hit any muppets there or in North Pakistan with cruise missiles, cheaper in the long run.

So glad that in this uncertain world plant hoboh remains rock steady...

Get those muppet-hunting cruise missiles charged up now...

And no swimming baths either. Or camels.

Still, nanny's on her way to make it all better.

[thebish]

I'm coming round to the view that labour should simply let the tories get on with it (with or without the lib dems) and sit back in opposition (with a new leader) while the tories do all the bad and unpopular shit - and oppose vociferously every lost job and tax rise and cut in services...

then rely on the good old british public to be stupid enough not to realise that labour would have had to do all that bad shit too - and reap the rewards...

[a1]

I'm coming round to the view that labour should simply let the tories get on with it (with or without the lib dems) and sit back in opposition (with a new leader) while the tories do all the bad and unpopular shit - and oppose vociferously every lost job and tax rise and cut in services...

then rely on the good old british public to be stupid enough not to realise that labour would have had to do all that bad shit too - and reap the rewards...

it worked for kinnock and them.

[TANGODANCER]

Is winning the election actually about running the country....or a personal power trip? The more I see of candidate interviews and the eel-wriggling and question-dodging smarm in favour of prepared and obviously practised in front of a mirror, Tony Blair style hand-jives, the more I wonder. Could we have a PM who actually spends his time sorting things out instead of visiting here, there and everywhere on goodwill missions and attending flower-bedecked receptions? Too much prawn sandwich and champers and not enough meat-pie and a pint. That used to be Labour's forte, now its all Jags and hot-air with not much end product. Gordon Brown is looking ominously like the most sensible one, and that's frightening.

[Lord Kangana]

I'm coming round to the view that labour should simply let the tories get on with it (with or without the lib dems) and sit back in opposition (with a new leader) while the tories do all the bad and unpopular shit - and oppose vociferously every lost job and tax rise and cut in services...

then rely on the good old british public to be stupid enough not to realise that labour would have had to do all that bad shit too - and reap the rewards...

I have to disagree with this bish I'm afraid.

I'm desperately hoping there are enough people with enough maturity and wisdom within our political system to realise that this is not a time for partisanship. I'm thinking along the lines of national government. We need Cable and Clarke and Darling all in on this... we are facing unprecedented political and economic factors, this is no time to leave the star striker on the bench. Much as people may have wed themselves to the Elmanders of their parties (Osborne et al) now is not the time to f*ck about. I think we need a cabinet with Clegg, Hague, Cable, Clarke, Darling.... bring on the heavyweights or heaven help us.

Sadly I fear there just isn't the imagination around to precipitate this outcome.

[Worthy4England]

I would like the Tories to keep their heads down

6-12 months of Lib/Labs and the calls for another Election will be just too great

Tory landslide

Funnily enough - and with a couple of pages of thread left to read - I'd be absolutely delighted with a Con/Lib pact.

[Worthy4England]

Went to vote at 4-15 yesterday at Farnworth Cricket Club. The activity was frantic, two people coming out as we got there, me, the wife and the dog, then six people descending on the place as we left. They wouldn't let the dog vote unfortunately.

We did at Ellenbrook Primary School. We got there followed by 2 others, there were 4 people in there and nobody going in after us.. This was at 8pm!

Perhaps Greater Manchester is even more apathetic than the rest of the nation

Dunno - there was three of us there at 06:50....

In my defense I had to be in Bracknell before 11:00...

[Worthy4England]

I'm coming round to the view that labour should simply let the tories get on with it (with or without the lib dems) and sit back in opposition (with a new leader) while the tories do all the bad and unpopular shit - and oppose vociferously every lost job and tax rise and cut in services...

then rely on the good old british public to be stupid enough not to realise that labour would have had to do all that bad shit too - and reap the rewards...

I have to disagree with this bish I'm afraid.

I'm desperately hoping there are enough people with enough maturity and wisdom within our political system to realise that this is not a time for partisanship. I'm thinking along the lines of national government. We need Cable and Clarke and Darling all in on this... we are facing unprecedented political and economic factors, this is no time to leave the star striker on the bench. Much as people may have wed themselves to the Elmanders of their parties (Osborne et al) now is not the time to f*ck about. I think we need a cabinet with Clegg, Hague, Cable, Clarke, Darling.... bring on the heavyweights or heaven help us.

Sadly I fear there just isn't the imagination around to precipitate this outcome.

As a generally Labour-ite (Pre Blair), I can see both sides sort of.

Half of me wants a "step back and hand it over Gordon"

T'other half says - actually the whole voting system needs to change - my personal vote needs to count - so the Lib Dems (who I didn't vote for either) need to press for one of the formats of PR from whoever and change the landscape.

[Little Green Man]

I think we need a cabinet with Clegg, Hague, Cable, Clarke, Darling.... bring on the heavyweights or heaven help us.

Well that lot of heavyweights from the three main parties would fill about a quarter of a cabinet. A sad reflection on the quality of our representatives these days.

Did anyone see Mr Harriet Harman (aka Jack Dromey MP) on TV this afternoon opining that the biggest losers on the night were the Tories. Now I didn't want to see the Tories in but Jack, you're talking utter crap!

[thebish]

I'm coming round to the view that labour should simply let the tories get on with it (with or without the lib dems) and sit back in opposition (with a new leader) while the tories do all the bad and unpopular shit - and oppose vociferously every lost job and tax rise and cut in services...

then rely on the good old british public to be stupid enough not to realise that labour would have had to do all that bad shit too - and reap the rewards...

I have to disagree with this bish I'm afraid.

I'm desperately hoping there are enough people with enough maturity and wisdom within our political system to realise that this is not a time for partisanship. I'm thinking along the lines of national government. We need Cable and Clarke and Darling all in on this... we are facing unprecedented political and economic factors, this is no time to leave the star striker on the bench. Much as people may have wed themselves to the Elmanders of their parties (Osborne et al) now is not the time to f*ck about. I think we need a cabinet with Clegg, Hague, Cable, Clarke, Darling.... bring on the heavyweights or heaven help us.

Sadly I fear there just isn't the imagination around to precipitate this outcome.

yes - that'd be great - but so obviously not an option with this generation of self-serving political pygmies that I had discounted it....

[thebish]

I'm coming round to the view that labour should simply let the tories get on with it (with or without the lib dems) and sit back in opposition (with a new leader) while the tories do all the bad and unpopular shit - and oppose vociferously every lost job and tax rise and cut in services...

then rely on the good old british public to be stupid enough not to realise that labour would have had to do all that bad shit too - and reap the rewards...

I have to disagree with this bish I'm afraid.

I'm desperately hoping there are enough people with enough maturity and wisdom within our political system to realise that this is not a time for partisanship. I'm thinking along the lines of national government. We need Cable and Clarke and Darling all in on this... we are facing unprecedented political and economic factors, this is no time to leave the star striker on the bench. Much as people may have wed themselves to the Elmanders of their parties (Osborne et al) now is not the time to f*ck about. I think we need a cabinet with Clegg, Hague, Cable, Clarke, Darling.... bring on the heavyweights or heaven help us.

Sadly I fear there just isn't the imagination around to precipitate this outcome.

As a generally Labour-ite (Pre Blair), I can see both sides sort of.

Half of me wants a "step back and hand it over Gordon"

T'other half says - actually the whole voting system needs to change - my personal vote needs to count - so the Lib Dems (who I didn't vote for either) need to press for one of the formats of PR from whoever and change the landscape.

indeed..

but - the Tories will not give them that

and any partnership with the labour party would still fall short and depend on Plaid and the SNP and be incredibly volatile and shakey, and so, ultimately fail...

hence my suggestion that labour and lib-dems allow the tories to progress and wait for their half-assed shit-stick of a coalition to go tits-uop and then stand together as a formal coalition in the next election and get a proper mandate and a decent majority on the ticket of economic stability and electoral reform.

[Worthy4England]

I'm coming round to the view that labour should simply let the tories get on with it (with or without the lib dems) and sit back in opposition (with a new leader) while the tories do all the bad and unpopular shit - and oppose vociferously every lost job and tax rise and cut in services...

then rely on the good old british public to be stupid enough not to realise that labour would have had to do all that bad shit too - and reap the rewards...

I have to disagree with this bish I'm afraid.

I'm desperately hoping there are enough people with enough maturity and wisdom within our political system to realise that this is not a time for partisanship. I'm thinking along the lines of national government. We need Cable and Clarke and Darling all in on this... we are facing unprecedented political and economic factors, this is no time to leave the star striker on the bench. Much as people may have wed themselves to the Elmanders of their parties (Osborne et al) now is not the time to f*ck about. I think we need a cabinet with Clegg, Hague, Cable, Clarke, Darling.... bring on the heavyweights or heaven help us.

Sadly I fear there just isn't the imagination around to precipitate this outcome.

As a generally Labour-ite (Pre Blair), I can see both sides sort of.

Half of me wants a "step back and hand it over Gordon"

T'other half says - actually the whole voting system needs to change - my personal vote needs to count - so the Lib Dems (who I didn't vote for either) need to press for one of the formats of PR from whoever and change the landscape.

indeed..

but - the Tories will not give them that

and any partnership with the labour party would still fall short and depend on Plaid and the SNP and be incredibly volatile and shakey, and so, ultimately fail...

hence my suggestion that labour and lib-dems allow the tories to progress and wait for their half-assed shit-stick of a coalition to go tits-uop and then stand together as a formal coalition in the next election and get a proper mandate and a decent majority on the ticket of economic stability and electoral reform.

The problem with that is, unless we change from first past the post, there's no incentive to form a coalition pre-election. Would both parties field candidates in all seats (for example)?

[thebish]

The problem with that is, unless we change from first past the post, there's no incentive to form a coalition pre-election. Would both parties field candidates in all seats (for example)?

given that there is going to be another election fairly soon - it is surely in both of their interests to form a pre-election coalition.

for the lib-dems - they now realise they have no chance at all under FPTP - and even less next time when people say "I voted Clegg and it made no difference"

for labour - clearly they are not, on their own, gonna overhaul the tories

the only winners (as CAPS for once correctly) pointed out from a second election would be the tories who would raise the spectre of a second hung parliament and stalemate - and sweep to power

if labour and the lib-dems stood in coalition on a clear ticket of electoral reform without Brown then they have every chance of catching the public move - gaining a clear majority (together they already have more than the tories) and forming a government of electoral change...

[Worthy4England]

The problem with that is, unless we change from first past the post, there's no incentive to form a coalition pre-election. Would both parties field candidates in all seats (for example)?

given that there is going to be another election fairly soon - it is surely in both of their interests to form a pre-election coalition.

for the lib-dems - they now realise they have no chance at all under FPTP - and even less next time when people say "I voted Clegg and it made no difference"

for labour - clearly they are not, on their own, gonna overhaul the tories

the only winners (as CAPS for once correctly) pointed out from a second election would be the tories who would raise the spectre of a second hung parliament and stalemate - and sweep to power

if labour and the lib-dems stood in coalition on a clear ticket of electoral reform without Brown then they have every chance of catching the public move - gaining a clear majority (together they already have more than the tories) and forming a government of electoral change...

I think in this particular case, there will be a second election - can't see the current split resolving itself into a working majority for 5 years. Although it wouldn't surprise me to see a minority government early next week.

Realistically, either Labour or Tory with a majority wouldn't change the voting system on the basis that it's a working majority, (so it must be right. And turkey's don't vote for Christmas) rather than greater than 50% of the electorate. So neither party have had a majority on any footing other than the way the seats are counted, for donkey's years.

I'm sure the Lib Dems would much rather form a coalition now, do the referendum and then go to the polls, rather than go to the polls in a coalition and risk losing, in which case they're no better off.

[thebish]

The problem with that is, unless we change from first past the post, there's no incentive to form a coalition pre-election. Would both parties field candidates in all seats (for example)?

given that there is going to be another election fairly soon - it is surely in both of their interests to form a pre-election coalition.

for the lib-dems - they now realise they have no chance at all under FPTP - and even less next time when people say "I voted Clegg and it made no difference"

for labour - clearly they are not, on their own, gonna overhaul the tories

the only winners (as CAPS for once correctly) pointed out from a second election would be the tories who would raise the spectre of a second hung parliament and stalemate - and sweep to power

if labour and the lib-dems stood in coalition on a clear ticket of electoral reform without Brown then they have every chance of catching the public move - gaining a clear majority (together they already have more than the tories) and forming a government of electoral change...

I think in this particular case, there will be a second election - can't see the current split resolving itself into a working majority for 5 years. Although it wouldn't surprise me to see a minority government early next week.

Realistically, either Labour or Tory with a majority wouldn't change the voting system on the basis that it's a working majority, (so it must be right. And turkey's don't vote for Christmas) rather than greater than 50% of the electorate. So neither party have had a majority on any footing other than the way the seats are counted, for donkey's years.

I'm sure the Lib Dems would much rather form a coalition now, do the referendum and then go to the polls, rather than go to the polls in a coalition and risk losing, in which case they're no better off.

I'm sure they would - but Cameron won't give them that (or at least I will be very very surprised if he does!) - and Brown hasn't got the seats.... they'd need all the other iddly-piddly parties too...