Winter ashes...

[Worthy4England]

Quote on BBC. "For the tail to wag, it helps if there's a dog..."

[jaffka]

Now 53-5 but they bring Lyon on

[Prufrock]

It reminds me of the end of Coyle here. It's not working, so keep doing it and hope for the best. If we keep trying to hook the short ball, presumably we'll dick them one day, right? How about taking the fight to them by wafting at stuff miles outside off stump? Or we could keep bowling short to Haddin?

[Montreal Wanderer]

101 for 6 - might avoid the follow on.

[Montreal Wanderer]

112 for 8 - still need 15 to avoid follow on...

[Montreal Wanderer]

Broad took 12 off an over but we still need 2 runs. 125 for 9 now.

[Montreal Wanderer]

Okay - I can go to bed - Rankin got off the mark with a four. England won't lose today at least.

[bwfcdan94]

It is very worrying that this is suppose to be our countries best team this is even more embarrassing then 2007. In previous tours when we have lost 5-0 we have come up against strong Australia sides but we haven't been as good. In this series we were touted as "favourites to win" which wasent the case for the 2006-2007 series and presumably was not the case in the 1920-21 series either. It is also to note that just 12 months ago people were saying this is one of the greatest England sides there has ever been and less than 6 months people were mocking the weakest Australia touring side in living memory. Yet here we are starring down the barrel against an very average Australia team to a 5 - 0 defeat despite not to long ago people saying this is one of the best England teams ever and one of the worst Australia teams ever. I don't know which is more surprising the shear rate of speed that we have fallen of our perch or the rate that Australia have recovered from the loss of the likes of Warne, McGrath, Pointing, Lee, Gilchrist, Hussey - I could continue. One thing is for sure though is that the English public and the ECB will seriously consider Cook's position as captain and will question the abilities of many players who have been regulars in the England team for nearly 10 years. Are batting line-up has gone from being strong and sturdy to sh*t and turdy and our bowling attack has gone from being fearless to fearful. We are no longer feared by the Australians but now mocked by them, how different it was 12 months ago.

[TANGODANCER]

It's cricket Dan. The Aussies played well, we didn't, they won. Last year our turn, this one theirs. It happens.

[BWFC_Insane]

It's cricket Dan. The Aussies played well, we didn't, they won. Last year our turn, this one theirs. It happens.

Bit more than that, the decline in our team from arguably best test side in the world to getting thumped 5-0 by an average Australia side is staggering!

[TANGODANCER]

It's cricket Dan. The Aussies played well, we didn't, they won. Last year our turn, this one theirs. It happens.

Bit more than that, the decline in our team from arguably best test side in the world to getting thumped 5-0 by an average Australia side is staggering!

I've noticed quite a few people claiming the Aussies are no more than average. Not quite sure that's the case, personally. The last five tests tell a bit of a different tale.

[thebish]

It's cricket Dan. The Aussies played well, we didn't, they won. Last year our turn, this one theirs. It happens.

Bit more than that, the decline in our team from arguably best test side in the world to getting thumped 5-0 by an average Australia side is staggering!

I've noticed quite a few people claiming the Aussies are no more than average. Not quite sure that's the case, personally. The last five tests tell a bit of a different tale.

their batting - especially has been pretty poor... that's the shame of it - we're not even getting thrashed by a team performing THAT well...

[bwfcdan94]

It's cricket Dan. The Aussies played well, we didn't, they won. Last year our turn, this one theirs. It happens.

Bit more than that, the decline in our team from arguably best test side in the world to getting thumped 5-0 by an average Australia side is staggering!

I've noticed quite a few people claiming the Aussies are no more than average. Not quite sure that's the case, personally. The last five tests tell a bit of a different tale.

When are the aussies next away to South Africa or India or Pakistan, then we will see whether they are better than average.

[jaffka]

South Africa next up for Oz, which will show if they have progressed or not.

I don't think that they have.

[TANGODANCER]

South Africa next up for Oz, which will show if they have progressed or not.

I don't think that they have.

Time will no doubt tell.

[Bruce Rioja]

Not sure why opinion's so polarised on this. England are shit - no, no, the Aussies are good.

The truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. They're a vastly improved side whereas we're heading in the opposite direction.

[bobo the clown]

But this is more than 'their players are better than ours'. There is something deeply wrong with a twam pkaying THIS badly and with no fight or spirit. Players packing it in midway. Players knowing all they must do kit bed in getting out in single figures, collapses of monumental standards in every game.

[BWFC_Insane]

It's cricket Dan. The Aussies played well, we didn't, they won. Last year our turn, this one theirs. It happens.

Bit more than that, the decline in our team from arguably best test side in the world to getting thumped 5-0 by an average Australia side is staggering!

I've noticed quite a few people claiming the Aussies are no more than average. Not quite sure that's the case, personally. The last five tests tell a bit of a different tale.

The last five tests....but what about before that?

This is not a Warne, McGrath side. That is what I mean by average. We are making them look world class when they are certainly not.

We beat them 3-0 only a matter of months ago. What the hell has gone so badly wrong in the meantime that it looks like we couldn't even scrape one draw in 5 tests against them?

[Worthy4England]

But this is more than 'their players are better than ours'. There is something deeply wrong with a twam pkaying THIS badly and with no fight or spirit. Players packing it in midway. Players knowing all they must do kit bed in getting out in single figures, collapses of monumental standards in every game.

Indeed. I'm not having that a top order that has scored as many runs as our top order have, are suddenly shit.

Or that bowlers that have previously won tests and series for England, suddenly can't hit the right half of the wicket.

There's been a combination of factors.

Johnson bowling exceptionally well and fast. A lot of our team haven't dealt with genuinely fast, previously, but fast and inaccurate, as Johnson was last tour isn't generally as much of a problem.

Losing tosses, hasn't helped.

Clear breakdown of bowling attack on unhelpful pitches and where they have been helpful, England's bowlers convincing themselves they're out and out pacemen when most of 'em are seamers. It was like watching the clock go back 5/6 years, when Anderson and Broad generally bowled too short and got carted regularly.

Lack of graft when it's mattered. Cook, Root, KP, Trott, Bell, Prior all got themselves out way too often. This isn't intended to detract from excellent Aussie bowling in the right places.

Inability to knock the tail over, especially Haddin and the likes, again linked to putting the ball in the right place.

Aussies clearly had a plan for England's batsmen like scaring Trott, and executed it brilliantly. They also had a plan for England's bowlers, such as getting about Swann and executed that brilliantly too, assisted in both Instances with no counter strategy from England to equalise the pressure.

Credit to the Aussies, but there are still talented cricketers in the England squad.

[bwfcdan94]

Right below is the Aussie side that trounced us in 2007 lets compare them to the current side and ask yourself which of the current squad would get into that 2007 squad let alone the starting 11 of that brilliant Aussie team:

now

Michael Clarke (c)
Brad Haddin (vc & wk)
George Bailey
James Faulkner
Ryan Harris
Mitchell Johnson
Nathan Lyon
Chris Rogers
Peter Siddle
Steve Smith
David Warner
Shane Watson
Alex Doolan

2007

Captain and middle order batsman

Ricky Ponting RHB, RM Tasmania

Vice-captain and wicketkeeper

Adam Gilchrist LHB Western Australia

Opening batsmen

Matthew Hayden LHB, RM Queensland
Justin Langer LHB, RM Western Australia

Middle order batsmen

Michael Hussey LHB, RM Western Australia
Michael Clarke RHB, SLA New South Wales
Damien Martyn RHB, RM Western Australia
Adam Voges RHB, SLA Western Australia

All-rounders

Shane Watson RHB, RFM Queensland
Andrew Symonds RHB, RM / ROB Queensland

Spin bowler

Shane Warne RHB, LB Victoria

Fast bowlers

Stuart Clark RHB, RFM New South Wales
Mitchell Johnson LHB, LF Queensland
Brett Lee RHB, RF New South Wales
Glenn McGrath RHB, RMF New South Wales
Shaun Tait RHB, RF South Australia

Barring the players who were involved in 2007 I don't think another of the current Aussie squad would be in that 2007 squad.
1.Would you rather have Hayden and Langer opening or Watson and Warner,
2.would you rather have Gilchrist behind stumps or Haddin,
3.would you rather have Lee, McGrath, Warne and Johnson bowling or Harris, Lyon, Siddle and Johnson,
4.would you rather have Hussey(Michael), Symonds, Pointing and Clarke batting or Rogers, Bailey, Smith and Clarke.
5.Would you rather Pointing be your captain or Clarke.
There is no difficult decisions in any of my 5 questions, all of you would go for the 2007 scenario team over the 2013 scenario.

Of course we are comparing the current squad to one of the best Aussie teams ever but it proves that realistically most of the current squad would not feature at all in the 2007 ashes.