Kiev

[Lost Leopard Spot]

Ah the 'everyone else was doing it' argument. It didn't wash for the owners of the Herald of Free Enterprise and it doesn't wash here. There have been military planes shot down in the area. Regardless of whether they *thought* no-one would be stupid enough to shoot down a passenger plane that's an unconscionable decision to make in order to save money on fuel or whatever else.

Despite what was happening 33,000 feet below that was open air space and they had an approved flight path. Let's not confuse matters by looking for secondary culprits. The people who did this are solely and completely the ones to blame.

As I said, I thought the use of 'ultimately' in that quote Hoboh put up was massively OTT. Ultimately responsibility lies with those who shot it down, but that doesn't mean everybody else is guiltless.

I'm sorry, but if you have a plane load of passengers, you don't fly it over a zone where any plane has been shot down. Now it turns out everyone has been doing it. That doesn't absolve Malaysia Airlines of blame anymore than the fact everyone used to set off with the ferry doors open absolved P&O.

If you were to use that argument there would be virtually no planes flown from west to east and vice versa.
here is a list of countries where planes have been shot down
Japan
North Korea
South korea
Russia
China
Afghanistan
Pakistan
Iran
Libya
Syria
Iraq
Armenia
Georgia
Somalia
Sudan
Serbia
Croatia
Bosnia-Herzegovina
FYR of Macedonia
Dubai
Israel
Lebanon

now try flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpar avoiding that lot

How many of them have had planes shot down in the last week? Or by people who you know are still out there with with military grade equipment?

None.
But that wasn't what you were saying. You specifically said just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't reduce your responsibility not to let it happen.
Half of those countries have armed groups with the sort of capability you mention, the other half are run by governments with the capability of doing just what has occurred.
Three: Japan, South Korea and Dubai are on the list because they've had commercial airliners full of passengers shot down (how short are our memories uh) with Russia China and USA being the aggressors. If I've got people weighing up my decision to allow commercial flights over territory I'd defo avoid USA Russia and China - the very countries where most overflights of commercial aircraft occur (discounting Western Europe).

[Prufrock]

That's meaningless verbosity. Watered down culpability? What does that even mean?

What it fckg means is that the people who fired the fckg thing are the ones responsible for what happened and hand-wringing, finger pointing complicators are giving them excuses and watering down their responsibility by saying other people are to blame as well.

It was an approved flight path. Do you need me to explain what that even means ?

What excuse? I can't find another combination of words to express how there is no excuse. I can't see anybody offering an excuse.

There are two separate things here. 1)Responsibility for flying a plane over that area; and 2) Shooting down a passenger plane of innocents. They're independent questions.

All airlines that have flown over that area have taken unconscionable risks with their passengers' safety. The others have just got lucky.

All people who bring down passenger plane are vile wretches with no defence.

Are you incapable of considering those two separate ideas?

[Prufrock]

As I said, I thought the use of 'ultimately' in that quote Hoboh put up was massively OTT. Ultimately responsibility lies with those who shot it down, but that doesn't mean everybody else is guiltless.

I'm sorry, but if you have a plane load of passengers, you don't fly it over a zone where any plane has been shot down. Now it turns out everyone has been doing it. That doesn't absolve Malaysia Airlines of blame anymore than the fact everyone used to set off with the ferry doors open absolved P&O.

If you were to use that argument there would be virtually no planes flown from west to east and vice versa.
here is a list of countries where planes have been shot down
Japan
North Korea
South korea
Russia
China
Afghanistan
Pakistan
Iran
Libya
Syria
Iraq
Armenia
Georgia
Somalia
Sudan
Serbia
Croatia
Bosnia-Herzegovina
FYR of Macedonia
Dubai
Israel
Lebanon

now try flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpar avoiding that lot

How many of them have had planes shot down in the last week? Or by people who you know are still out there with with military grade equipment?

None.
But that wasn't what you were saying. You specifically said just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't reduce your responsibility not to let it happen.
Half of those countries have armed groups with the sort of capability you mention, the other half are run by governments with the capability of doing just what has occurred.
Three: Japan, South Korea and Dubai are on the list because they've had commercial airliners full of passengers shot down (how short are our memories uh) with Russia China and USA being the aggressors. If I've got people weighing up my decision to allow commercial flights over territory I'd defo avoid USA Russia and China - the very countries where most overflights of commercial aircraft occur (discounting Western Europe).

Fair enough. 'You don't fly it over a zone where any plane has been shot down' is unclear. The 'any' wasn't intended to mean 'ever in history' but 'any sort' meaning it's no excuse to say 'they only shot down a fighter plane, so it's fine'. I should have said 'you don't fly it over a zone where any sort of plane has been deliberately shot down recently'. And I don't want any sophistry about 'what if terrorists had hijacked a plane that was shot down by the military outside New York. Would you not fly over new York?' .

[bobo the clown]

That's meaningless verbosity. Watered down culpability? What does that even mean?

What it fckg means is that the people who fired the fckg thing are the ones responsible for what happened and hand-wringing, finger pointing complicators are giving them excuses and watering down their responsibility by saying other people are to blame as well.

It was an approved flight path. Do you need me to explain what that even means ?

What excuse? I can't find another combination of words to express how there is no excuse. I can't see anybody offering an excuse.

There are two separate things here. 1)Responsibility for flying a plane over that area; and 2) Shooting down a passenger plane of innocents. They're independent questions.

All airlines that have flown over that area have taken unconscionable risks with their passengers' safety. The others have just got lucky.

All people who bring down passenger plane are vile wretches with no defence.

Are you incapable of considering those two separate ideas?

There's big pot of blame. That pot, whatever it's size is 100% of the blame.

I allocate 100% of that blame to the bastards who did this.

You appear to allocate a proportion of it .... let's say 10% for a working premise ... to people who chose to use an approved route. So, by doing that the missile launchers are only 90% to blame in your eyes. You've watered down their blame.

Are you incapable of seeing that ??

[Lost Leopard Spot]

None.
But that wasn't what you were saying. You specifically said just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't reduce your responsibility not to let it happen.
Half of those countries have armed groups with the sort of capability you mention, the other half are run by governments with the capability of doing just what has occurred.
Three: Japan, South Korea and Dubai are on the list because they've had commercial airliners full of passengers shot down (how short are our memories uh) with Russia China and USA being the aggressors. If I've got people weighing up my decision to allow commercial flights over territory I'd defo avoid USA Russia and China - the very countries where most overflights of commercial aircraft occur (discounting Western Europe).

Fair enough. 'You don't fly it over a zone where any plane has been shot down' is unclear. The 'any' wasn't intended to mean 'ever in history' but 'any sort' meaning it's no excuse to say 'they only shot down a fighter plane, so it's fine'. I should have said 'you don't fly it over a zone where any sort of plane has been deliberately shot down recently'. And I don't want any sophistry about 'what if terrorists had hijacked a plane that was shot down by the military outside New York. Would you not fly over new York?' .

We'll agree to agree on that then.

although personally speaking I made a decision a long time ago to fly as little as possible, and flying into New Yoik is definitely on my list of places to avoid flying near, whether the US military have shot down a bunch of terrorists or not recently - they are bound to one day, and I don't want to be one of the poor buggers watching the approaching F-16.

[Prufrock]

That's meaningless verbosity. Watered down culpability? What does that even mean?

What it fckg means is that the people who fired the fckg thing are the ones responsible for what happened and hand-wringing, finger pointing complicators are giving them excuses and watering down their responsibility by saying other people are to blame as well.

It was an approved flight path. Do you need me to explain what that even means ?

What excuse? I can't find another combination of words to express how there is no excuse. I can't see anybody offering an excuse.

There are two separate things here. 1)Responsibility for flying a plane over that area; and 2) Shooting down a passenger plane of innocents. They're independent questions.

All airlines that have flown over that area have taken unconscionable risks with their passengers' safety. The others have just got lucky.

All people who bring down passenger plane are vile wretches with no defence.

Are you incapable of considering those two separate ideas?

There's big pot of blame. That pot, whatever it's size is 100% of the blame.

I allocate 100% of that blame to the bastards who did this.

You appear to allocate a proportion of it .... let's say 10% for a working premise ... to people who chose to use an approved route. So, by doing that the missile launchers are only 90% to blame in your eyes. You've watered down their blame.

Are you incapable of seeing that ??

There isn't a pot of '100% of blame' to be divided up, because there are two issues at stake.

If a parent let their 4 year old child walk around a city centre at midnight, and the child was abducted and murdered. To say 'the parent shouldn't let the kid walk around like that' doesn't mean you apportion only 90% of the guilt to the murderer. They're still 100% guilty of murdering a child, and the parent is still 100% guilty of the much lesser 'crime', as it were, of letting the child walk about. They're separate issues and capable of being discussed as such. Clearly you wouldn't expect the behaviour of the parent to be the main issue or talking point, unless of course, someone tried to argument that the parent was completely blameless for anything !

[Hoboh]

That's meaningless verbosity. Watered down culpability? What does that even mean?

What it fckg means is that the people who fired the fckg thing are the ones responsible for what happened and hand-wringing, finger pointing complicators are giving them excuses and watering down their responsibility by saying other people are to blame as well.

It was an approved flight path. Do you need me to explain what that even means ?

The airlines had been warned about those routes, Air France stopped flights begining of April, US carriers are forbiden from using those routes, US pilots are incredulous that European and Asian airlines are still using them.

[ChrisC]

Fckin'ell - they don't piss about on the news in Russia. When the Beeb says "some viewers may find the following scenes disturbing" they might benefit from a course on how foreigners edit it...

EDIT: Some TW viewers might find the following footage disturbing, others may well wonder why we are nanny-stated away from such footage in this country.

That video is nothing compared to the one on liveleak. I won't post because I don't think anyone on here will want to see it. It's shows kids and the much more graphic injuries.

I know I am nobody to speak after watching the video, but who films this shit? It's one thing watching a video on the net but it's another world actually going round filming it.. Especially dead kids!

[Hoboh]

Fckin'ell - they don't piss about on the news in Russia. When the Beeb says "some viewers may find the following scenes disturbing" they might benefit from a course on how foreigners edit it...

EDIT: Some TW viewers might find the following footage disturbing, others may well wonder why we are nanny-stated away from such footage in this country.

That video is nothing compared to the one on liveleak. I won't post because I don't think anyone on here will want to see it. It's shows kids and the much more graphic injuries.

I know I am nobody to speak after watching the video, but who films this shit? It's one thing watching a video on the net but it's another world actually going round filming it.. Especially dead kids!

Do not shoot the messenger, it is not nice, but you would not believe how many folk really do not appreciate what happened living in a sanitized world.

[ChrisC]

Fckin'ell - they don't piss about on the news in Russia. When the Beeb says "some viewers may find the following scenes disturbing" they might benefit from a course on how foreigners edit it...

EDIT: Some TW viewers might find the following footage disturbing, others may well wonder why we are nanny-stated away from such footage in this country.

That video is nothing compared to the one on liveleak. I won't post because I don't think anyone on here will want to see it. It's shows kids and the much more graphic injuries.

I know I am nobody to speak after watching the video, but who films this shit? It's one thing watching a video on the net but it's another world actually going round filming it.. Especially dead kids!

Do not shoot the messenger, it is not nice, but you would not believe how many folk really do not appreciate what happened living in a sanitized world.

I don't have a problem with the video from Leopard. I actually believe we should show similar on our news so people realise that reality of things that happen in the world. Don't agree with people filming dead kids though. Especially showing their faces.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

^ absolutely - the Russian news clip that I posted there was sensibly edited in my opinion, so it doesn't show faces, or the kids or the more graphic burst bodies. I think the tone is about right. I get very annoyed with the extremely sanitised output from the BBC, but I'm equally annoyed by the dickhead ghouls with cameras who seem to be everywhere - just the other week another lunatic biker wiped himself out on the approaches to Matlock and the first thing anybody did was to whip out the cameras to film his body. One particular dickhead was trying to get passersby (not that many were actually passing by, just me and the dog seemed to be the only ones moving on - everybody else was stood gawping) to photograph him standing next to the body. I don't want to encourage that sort of ghoulishness, but equally I don't think death scenes should be brushed under the carpet in the news either.

[a1]

that happened when lee rigby got murdered.

who gives a feck what some islamofascist thinks , run the c*nt over with a ford transit.. but no , nineteen iphone wankers get their phone out hoping to be the next john simpson

[Bruce Rioja]

Not sure if this was taken before or after, but it seems to clearly demonstrate that it isn't impossible for most carriers to avoid Ukraine airspace.

[Gravedigger]

It's current, Bruce. Looks like the whole of the Eastern Ukraine is closed down. A perpendicular line from The Crimea Northwards and out East to the Russian border seems to be devoid of traffic. Even the Russians are going around. All it needs now is for the pro-Russian mob to go west with their Buk and take out another. Four very skilled people did this and it won't be long before the individuals can be identified. There's a video clip doing the rounds showing a Buk being transported back towards Russia, but that proves nothing. Let's hope Putin turns out to be a man of honour, but let's not hold our breath.

[Abdoulaye's Twin]

GD is right. I've the same app and just east of the border is very busy. The next nearest is a handful heading south in a line just east of Kiev. Even western Ukraine is quiet, with most of the traffic skirting down Poland, through Slovakia and Romania.

[Bruce Rioja]

Aye, that was just a pic that I lifted off of someones Tweet. I've just been having a play on the site proper and the only flights going over the Ukraine are to/from Moscow, and they're flying over the west.

[Montreal Wanderer]

Well, it seems certain now Russian separatists fired the shot and probably with a weapon Russia gave them. Now we will see what McCain meant.

[Hoboh]

Well, it seems certain now Russian separatists fired the shot and probably with a weapon Russia gave them. Now we will see what McCain meant.

The thought is it is a weapon they nicked when the Ukrainian army left their camp in a hurry early on, don't make it right but I cannot believe the high ups in Moscow gave approval of this action, what would they gain? some trigger happy clown was more than likely the cause.

[Montreal Wanderer]

Well, it seems certain now Russian separatists fired the shot and probably with a weapon Russia gave them. Now we will see what McCain meant.

The thought is it is a weapon they nicked when the Ukrainian army left their camp in a hurry early on, don't make it right but I cannot believe the high ups in Moscow gave approval of this action, what would they gain? some trigger happy clown was more than likely the cause.

I'm sure Moscow did not okay it, but they will try to obfuscate and blame Ukraine. I doubt the separatists intended to shoot down a civilian plane either. Moscow could well have supplied the weapon, and the expertise to use it, to help the separatists against the Ukrainian airforce.

[Prufrock]

On the one hand I can't possibly see what they'd hope to gain; theirs isn't a nihilistic cause. On the other hand, whilst a plane flying at 23,000ft (the height at which I read the fighter planes were flying) and one an 33,000ft might seem confusable to you or me, presumably this sort of equipment is a bit more complex than point and fire, and so anybody using it would know what they were aiming at?