Brexit or Britin

[TANGODANCER]

This thread will last as long as The Archers, though not quite as interesting....

[Bruce Rioja]

This thread will last as long as The Archers, though not quite as interesting....

Haha, love The Archers. Within the blink of an eye they've gone from domestic violence and murder to squabbling over who's selling eggs to the cafe - a shift of topic the size of which we see on here all the time.

[thebish]

And now the bullshitter general pokes his snout in.

Osborne says Brexit will cost families £4,300 a year

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blo ... itics-live" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There's project fear for you bish.

Actually, if it's the mythical money under the bed the EU has been giving every family in the UK for years, I doubt it will be missed.

well - yes - Osborne is spouting bollox - he is deliberately confusing household income with GDP/household - they are not the same thing.

I am very happy to point out bullshit whenever it happens - on either side. (you don't appear to be - despite my asking you several times...)

of course - osborne talking crap does not surprise me in the least - he is a weasely slime-ball...

so for your part - ready to admit bullshit/lies in the OUT campaign?

[thebish]

for anyone needing a reason not to leave...

"I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That’s easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice."

[Lord Kangana]

F*cking hell, do I get 2 votes?

Weasel-faced spunkbubble.

[Worthy4England]

F*cking hell, do I get 2 votes?

Weasel-faced spunkbubble.

Depends - Do you read The Sun?

[Lord Kangana]

Only when I'm sneaking a look over someone's shoulder whilst simultaneously judging them.

[bobo the clown]

This thread will last as long as The Archers, though not quite as interesting....

Haha, love The Archers. Within the blink of an eye they've gone from domestic violence and murder to squabbling over who's selling eggs to the cafe - a shift of topic the size of which we see on here all the time.

But that Helen deserves a slap.

(Ooops. She got one didn't she !?)

[malcd1]

It may surprise some but I hadn't made my mind up for sure which way I was going to vote. I've always leaned in and was likely to vote that way but I was open to being convinced. The onus very much is on "Out" to win the argument though. I've heard nothing! An utterly nonsense sovereignty argument (we're having a bloody referendum; if we didn't have sovereignty, we couldn't do that!) and arguments over process. If your best argument to win a referendum you've been banging on about for 20 years or more is that the other side have had an extra leaflet than you, I'm not convinced.

It's made harder by the way news has changed with the internet. It's impossible to find out any real facts. There are loads of stories saying it costs us£x, and others saying we gain £y. How on earth Joe Bloggs is supposed to work out what's what I don't know.

Again though, the onus is on out. If one side are saying we'll all lose our jobs and catch on fire if we leave, and the other side are saying we'll all lose our jobs and catch on fire if we don't, then I think most people will think, "well, I've *got* a job now, and I'm not actually on fire, so probably stay".

That pretty much sums it up for me. Utter crap coming out from both sides. I haven't decided because I haven't a fecking clue what is best for the country or even me personally.

[Armchair Wanderer]

My main thoughts on an exit for anyone who owns property would be what would happen to house prices. Also, I'm not convinced everyone on the dole will be into doing the jobs the Eastern Europeans are doing now. I have no idea though, these aren't concepts I've heard much talk about in the media.

[Hoboh]

The justice secretary will say that a 200-page report published by the Treasury also contains an admission that immigration will continue to rise by hundreds of thousands year on year, amounting to a failure by his own Conservative government to reduce the net rate to below 100,000.

“The report from the Treasury is an official admission from the in campaign that if we vote to stay in the EU then immigration will to continue to increase by hundreds of thousands year on year,” Gove will say. “Over 250,000 people came to Britain from Europe last year. As long as we are in the EU we cannot control our borders and cannot develop an immigration policy which is both truly humane and in our long term economic interests.”


Vote Leave has focused on immigration because the Treasury report uses forecasts from the independent Office for Budget Responsibility, which suggests net migration will be above David Cameron’s 100,000 target every year of this parliament.

Gove will use his speech to also warn that the European court of justice will make a decision over whether prisoners can vote, intervene on how intelligence services monitor suspected terrorists and control asylum and refugee policy.

[TANGODANCER]

That pretty much sums it up for me. Utter crap coming out from both sides. I haven't decided because I haven't a fecking clue what is best for the country or even me personally.

Since nobody seems able to give any definitive facts, I'll join that list for now..

[Worthy4England]

Remain campaigners are treating voters "like children who can be frightened into obedience", Michael Gove is to say, as the war of the words in the EU referendum debate intensifies. The pro-Leave justice secretary will accuse Remain of "conjuring up bogeymen" to try to win the vote

That would be Michael Gove...suggesting Remain are conjuring up bogeymen...

[thebish]

Remain campaigners are treating voters "like children who can be frightened into obedience", Michael Gove is to say, as the war of the words in the EU referendum debate intensifies. The pro-Leave justice secretary will accuse Remain of "conjuring up bogeymen" to try to win the vote

That would be Michael Gove...suggesting Remain are conjuring up bogeymen...

for those who say they just want the facts... here's Gove's contribution fact-checked by the independent fact-checking charity "Full Fact"

https://fullfact.org/europe/michael-gov ... ctchecked/


Gove kicks off with the old chestnut - we send 350million to the EU every week... now, Gove KNOWS this just isn't true - yet still he says it... why??

[thebish]

Remain campaigners are treating voters "like children who can be frightened into obedience", Michael Gove is to say, as the war of the words in the EU referendum debate intensifies. The pro-Leave justice secretary will accuse Remain of "conjuring up bogeymen" to try to win the vote

That would be Michael Gove...suggesting Remain are conjuring up bogeymen...

First, he accuses the remain campaign of treating voters like children, waging a campaign of fear, seeking to leave the electorate “frightened into obedience by conjuring up new bogeymen every night”. Then he goes on national radio to warn Brexit must happen “before it’s too late”, that a vote for remain would mean “voting to be hostages, locked in the back of a car” before warning of the threat posed by foreigners and criminals.

Gove is the man who once said that "all schools should be better than average."

[Prufrock]

I've enjoyed the likes of Gove, Garage and Johnson complaining about the pro-Brussels "elites".

[Montreal Wanderer]

Your government has just informed me that, as a UK citizen living abroad, I'm allowed to vote in this thing though I have to register by May 16. I think I'll pass (I only got 5/8 on their test).

[Prufrock]

I like the two hats the outers wear.

On the one hand: trade will not be affected. The EU isn't going to stop trading with us given how big our economy is. We'll be able to negotiate bilateral agreements in much the way that, say, Canada has. It might take a while, though not as long as Project Fear say it will, but of course we can do it.

On the other hand: we will have control of our own borders. We will no longer be bound be the EU's free movement rules and we can stop any old EU national coming along whenever they please. We'll finally be able to get somewhere near an immigration target.

The problem is, while each of those arguments are strong, they're mutually exclusive. Freedom of movement is fundamental to the EU project, as fundamental as freedom of goods and services that are the reason we're hoping we'll get a good trade deal. But you won't get one without the other. Any trade deal with the EU on good terms is going to involve big concessions on freedom of movement.

It's like the sit-com trope where a guy ends up double booking himself on two dates at the same time,

"Yes, darling, we'll still have free trade...just...excuse me, I'm just nipping to the gents"
[squeezes out of the gents' window before dashing down the street to Pizza Express]
"Of course my love, we'll finally be able to keep immigration under control...oh I must go into the kitchen to congratulate the chef personally. Please excuse me..."

[thebish]

I like the two hats the outers wear.

On the one hand: trade will not be affected. The EU isn't going to stop trading with us given how big our economy is. We'll be able to negotiate bilateral agreements in much the way that, say, Canada has. It might take a while, though not as long as Project Fear say it will, but of course we can do it.

On the other hand: we will have control of our own borders. We will no longer be bound be the EU's free movement rules and we can stop any old EU national coming along whenever they please. We'll finally be able to get somewhere near an immigration target.

The problem is, while each of those arguments are strong, they're mutually exclusive. Freedom of movement is fundamental to the EU project, as fundamental as freedom of goods and services that are the reason we're hoping we'll get a good trade deal. But you won't get one without the other. Any trade deal with the EU on good terms is going to involve big concessions on freedom of movement.

It's like the sit-com trope where a guy ends up double booking himself on two dates at the same time,

"Yes, darling, we'll still have free trade...just...excuse me, I'm just nipping to the gents"
[squeezes out of the gents' window before dashing down the street to Pizza Express]
"Of course my love, we'll finally be able to keep immigration under control...oh I must go into the kitchen to congratulate the chef personally. Please excuse me..."

that's one of the things pointed out in the Gove speech fact check I linked above...

[Lord Kangana]

There goes the Xanadu of Norway out the window then.