European Second Referendum

[Harry Genshaw]

May delaying the vote last time because she couldn't be sure of victory! After weeks of delay and further discussions she's made it worse. What an appalling lack of judgement in a politician.

Hoping for a 2nd referendum here so I can change my vote

[Hoboh]

However, in a sign of growing anxiety at the prospect of the UK crashing out, earlier on Tuesday the head of the eurozone’s finance ministers, Mário Centeno, had said he believed the EU and Britain would talk further and adjust their positions to avoid a no-deal Brexit, as the latest data confirmed the 19-member bloc was moving towards a period of slower growth.

“We can adjust our trajectory,” Centeno said. “We can open all the dossiers ... We need to take informed decisions with total calm and avoid a no-deal exit. Practically anything is better than a no-deal exit.”

Before the vote, Germany’s foreign minister, Heiko Maas, also hinted at the flexibility the EU would show in the final act of the Brexit talks.

“If it goes wrong tonight, there could be further talks,” he said, while adding that he could not foresee “fundamental” changes.

The European parliament’s Brexit coordinator said the British parliament had said “what it doesn’t want”, and asked MPs to tell the EU what it did want.

Amazing how the threat of a possible no deal can start to concentrate minds.

[Hoboh]

Ah well, back to antagonising the Guardianistas I suppose

[BWFC_Insane]

However, in a sign of growing anxiety at the prospect of the UK crashing out, earlier on Tuesday the head of the eurozone’s finance ministers, Mário Centeno, had said he believed the EU and Britain would talk further and adjust their positions to avoid a no-deal Brexit, as the latest data confirmed the 19-member bloc was moving towards a period of slower growth.

“We can adjust our trajectory,” Centeno said. “We can open all the dossiers ... We need to take informed decisions with total calm and avoid a no-deal exit. Practically anything is better than a no-deal exit.”

Before the vote, Germany’s foreign minister, Heiko Maas, also hinted at the flexibility the EU would show in the final act of the Brexit talks.

“If it goes wrong tonight, there could be further talks,” he said, while adding that he could not foresee “fundamental” changes.

The European parliament’s Brexit coordinator said the British parliament had said “what it doesn’t want”, and asked MPs to tell the EU what it did want.

Amazing how the threat of a possible no deal can start to concentrate minds.

Amazing how many outlets are quoting the EU as saying they will not renegotiate the withdrawal agreement.

Even in your quote they say ‘no fundamental changes’.

There are other deals to explore with the EU and backbenchers have proposed some of these. Somehow a compromise between that and May abandoning some of her red lines will have to be found. Or the cabinet will have to force May out.

Worth noting that the parliament can’t even agree with themselves. May says she will now, finally work cross party, but half the cabinet are in favour of that the other opposed to it.

[TANGODANCER]

Worth noting that the parliament can’t even agree with themselves. May says she will now, finally work cross party, but half the cabinet are in favour of that the other opposed to it.

And thus it ever was...

[BWFC_Insane]

Worth noting that the parliament can’t even agree with themselves. May says she will now, finally work cross party, but half the cabinet are in favour of that the other opposed to it.

And thus it ever was...

I can't ever remember an issue that a cabinet was so split on as Brexit.

Last night you had the Chancellor tweet out how "I strongly back @theresa_may as she reaches out across the House to build a political consensus to deliver a negotiated Brexit deal that honours the referendum result while protecting Britain's jobs, business and prosperity."

Yet you had Leader of the House Andrea Leadsom insist it wasn't for May to build cross party consensus but for the EU to come up with something else.

Its an absolutely crazy scenario. There is it seems genuine parliamentary consensus for one deal - one that involves customs union membership. But May would have to break some of her red lines to achieve it. If she won't and assuming the EU won't give the ERG what they want (which seems unlikely) then we really are in unprecedented waters. I think there will be enough dissent from moderate Tories who will overthrow the government or threaten to, rather than end up with no deal. I do think it sounds like, from an interview with Flint and Morgan that no deal will be blocked, one way or another.

[Prufrock]

It's worth pointing out that the tired cynical "thus it ever was" is exactly wrong. Another of this government's pioneering achievements seems to have been seeing off the idea of collective cabinet responsibility.

[BWFC_Insane]

It's worth pointing out that the tired cynical "thus it ever was" is exactly wrong. Another of this government's pioneering achievements seems to have been seeing off the idea of collective cabinet responsibility.

Indeed. One of my major frustrations in this is how the media have protected May and her cabinet by promoting the "people are fed up with politicians". Since when did a government get a pass for a self created mess? Brexit has nothing to do with Labour, the Lib Dems, the Greens or any other opposition party.

It was a referendum called by the Tories to "see off their hardline mob" in the expectation that remain would comfortably win. It was an incredibly poorly designed referendum and Cameron was warned it was divisive and dangerous, he didn't listen. Then when the result was not as Cameron wanted, he went off in a huff. Leaving the country rudderless. May stepped up and then decided she wanted a bigger majority. Called a fatal election that left the country in an even more perilous position. Then she came up with a plan that divided her cabinet which was roundly denounced as being untenable to the EU and Parliament. She persisted and ended up with a weaker plan than she started with after the EU - as everyone said they would - changed the legal position of several aspects within it. Then she was told "you cannot pass this through parliament" for weeks and weeks and months. Yet she persisted. In December she postponed the vote to get more assurances that everyone told her would not come. They did not come. She was then told she had no chance. Yet she persisted and lost embarrassingly. After losing she said "we've heard and will now work across the house to find out what can secure consensus". Only she now appears unable or unwilling or both to actually do that and instead will just persist as was.

Lets be 100% clear. This is a mess, entirely of Conservative party making. They've governed for 9 years, given us failed austerity which has only made the poor, poorer and the rich, richer. They've then had to abandon austerity as public borrowing continues. They promised immigration targets which were entirely unachieveable and even post Brexit they are now rowing back on that. They've taken benefits and welfare payments away from genuinely disabled people yet tried to pretend they were making everyone's lives better. They've increased the levels of poverty in this country.

They are not being held to task because Corbyn is a joke. But also because the media refuse to hold them to task - I assume because most of them have been bought. It really is the worst time politically I can remember. I thought the 80's were grim, the darkest of dark ages. They were nothing compared to this. Absolutely nothing. At least then the light was a reforming Labour party slowly but surely coming out of its slumber.

The public are hoodwinked by propaganda and lies. The Tory party cannot even agree with itself, other than on the point of grand and complete deception.

I'm really not sure what the answer is, but a revolution might honestly be the only way. We need something very dramatic and potentially catastrophic to happen because otherwise we will continue in the darkest of dark ages with absolutely no light at the end of the tunnel.

[Hoboh]

It's worth pointing out that the tired cynical "thus it ever was" is exactly wrong. Another of this government's pioneering achievements seems to have been seeing off the idea of collective cabinet responsibility.

Indeed. One of my major frustrations in this is how the media have protected May and her cabinet by promoting the "people are fed up with politicians". Since when did a government get a pass for a self created mess? Brexit has nothing to do with Labour, the Lib Dems, the Greens or any other opposition party.

It was a referendum called by the Tories to "see off their hardline mob" in the expectation that remain would comfortably win. It was an incredibly poorly designed referendum and Cameron was warned it was divisive and dangerous, he didn't listen. Then when the result was not as Cameron wanted, he went off in a huff. Leaving the country rudderless. May stepped up and then decided she wanted a bigger majority. Called a fatal election that left the country in an even more perilous position. Then she came up with a plan that divided her cabinet which was roundly denounced as being untenable to the EU and Parliament. She persisted and ended up with a weaker plan than she started with after the EU - as everyone said they would - changed the legal position of several aspects within it. Then she was told "you cannot pass this through parliament" for weeks and weeks and months. Yet she persisted. In December she postponed the vote to get more assurances that everyone told her would not come. They did not come. She was then told she had no chance. Yet she persisted and lost embarrassingly. After losing she said "we've heard and will now work across the house to find out what can secure consensus". Only she now appears unable or unwilling or both to actually do that and instead will just persist as was.

Lets be 100% clear. This is a mess, entirely of Conservative party making. They've governed for 9 years, given us failed austerity which has only made the poor, poorer and the rich, richer. They've then had to abandon austerity as public borrowing continues. They promised immigration targets which were entirely unachieveable and even post Brexit they are now rowing back on that. They've taken benefits and welfare payments away from genuinely disabled people yet tried to pretend they were making everyone's lives better. They've increased the levels of poverty in this country.
The mess has nothing at all to do with the remainers who have blocked or tried to block Brexit in any way they can then? You know the Blairs and Cleggs going behind the scenes undermining the negotiations.
They are not being held to task because Corbyn is a joke. But also because the media refuse to hold them to task - I assume because most of them have been bought. It really is the worst time politically I can remember. I thought the 80's were grim, the darkest of dark ages. They were nothing compared to this. Absolutely nothing. At least then the light was a reforming Labour party slowly but surely coming out of its slumber.
Total hysterical nonsense, Carney, failiure to support Mays deal and Sterling will crumble, it's risen! The dead are still being burried and apart from the unions in Birmingham the rubbish is still being collected, employment is at record levels, darkest hour? cobblers.

The public are hoodwinked by propaganda and lies. The Tory party cannot even agree with itself, other than on the point of grand and complete deception.
Another smug remainer who thinks the general public should not be allowed a vote or opinion because he and his pals know best.
I'm really not sure what the answer is, but a revolution might honestly be the only way. We need something very dramatic and potentially catastrophic to happen because otherwise we will continue in the darkest of dark ages with absolutely no light at the end of the tunnel.
If there is a revolution your types would fall under the wheels of the extremists because some of us wouldn't give support for you the time of day, that's how divided this nation is becoming because of you globalists.

[TANGODANCER]

It's worth pointing out that the tired cynical "thus it ever was" is exactly wrong. Another of this government's pioneering achievements seems to have been seeing off the idea of collective cabinet responsibility.

I'll restrict my reply to less than a re-write of War and Peace (rather apt wouldn't you say? ) and just say, please accept my deepest apologies for my error.

[Hoboh]

It's worth pointing out that the tired cynical "thus it ever was" is exactly wrong. Another of this government's pioneering achievements seems to have been seeing off the idea of collective cabinet responsibility.

Pru snipes from the sideline, "thus it ever was".

[BWFC_Insane]

It's worth pointing out that the tired cynical "thus it ever was" is exactly wrong. Another of this government's pioneering achievements seems to have been seeing off the idea of collective cabinet responsibility.

Indeed. One of my major frustrations in this is how the media have protected May and her cabinet by promoting the "people are fed up with politicians". Since when did a government get a pass for a self created mess? Brexit has nothing to do with Labour, the Lib Dems, the Greens or any other opposition party.

It was a referendum called by the Tories to "see off their hardline mob" in the expectation that remain would comfortably win. It was an incredibly poorly designed referendum and Cameron was warned it was divisive and dangerous, he didn't listen. Then when the result was not as Cameron wanted, he went off in a huff. Leaving the country rudderless. May stepped up and then decided she wanted a bigger majority. Called a fatal election that left the country in an even more perilous position. Then she came up with a plan that divided her cabinet which was roundly denounced as being untenable to the EU and Parliament. She persisted and ended up with a weaker plan than she started with after the EU - as everyone said they would - changed the legal position of several aspects within it. Then she was told "you cannot pass this through parliament" for weeks and weeks and months. Yet she persisted. In December she postponed the vote to get more assurances that everyone told her would not come. They did not come. She was then told she had no chance. Yet she persisted and lost embarrassingly. After losing she said "we've heard and will now work across the house to find out what can secure consensus". Only she now appears unable or unwilling or both to actually do that and instead will just persist as was.

Lets be 100% clear. This is a mess, entirely of Conservative party making. They've governed for 9 years, given us failed austerity which has only made the poor, poorer and the rich, richer. They've then had to abandon austerity as public borrowing continues. They promised immigration targets which were entirely unachieveable and even post Brexit they are now rowing back on that. They've taken benefits and welfare payments away from genuinely disabled people yet tried to pretend they were making everyone's lives better. They've increased the levels of poverty in this country.
The mess has nothing at all to do with the remainers who have blocked or tried to block Brexit in any way they can then? You know the Blairs and Cleggs going behind the scenes undermining the negotiations.
They are not being held to task because Corbyn is a joke. But also because the media refuse to hold them to task - I assume because most of them have been bought. It really is the worst time politically I can remember. I thought the 80's were grim, the darkest of dark ages. They were nothing compared to this. Absolutely nothing. At least then the light was a reforming Labour party slowly but surely coming out of its slumber.
Total hysterical nonsense, Carney, failiure to support Mays deal and Sterling will crumble, it's risen! The dead are still being burried and apart from the unions in Birmingham the rubbish is still being collected, employment is at record levels, darkest hour? cobblers.

The public are hoodwinked by propaganda and lies. The Tory party cannot even agree with itself, other than on the point of grand and complete deception.
Another smug remainer who thinks the general public should not be allowed a vote or opinion because he and his pals know best.
I'm really not sure what the answer is, but a revolution might honestly be the only way. We need something very dramatic and potentially catastrophic to happen because otherwise we will continue in the darkest of dark ages with absolutely no light at the end of the tunnel.
If there is a revolution your types would fall under the wheels of the extremists because some of us wouldn't give support for you the time of day, that's how divided this nation is becoming because of you globalists.

Only in your fantasist head have remainers tried to block the negotiations. Blair has been supposedly giving May advice....

The pound has risen because the markets believe no deal is getting less likely. As per the various market experts and stockbrokers interviewed this morning. However, business has an opposing view and believes that the prospects are getting gloomier.

I'm glad you finally acknowledge you are an extremist. Its time to rid this country of extremists.

[Hoboh]

It's worth pointing out that the tired cynical "thus it ever was" is exactly wrong. Another of this government's pioneering achievements seems to have been seeing off the idea of collective cabinet responsibility.

Indeed. One of my major frustrations in this is how the media have protected May and her cabinet by promoting the "people are fed up with politicians". Since when did a government get a pass for a self created mess? Brexit has nothing to do with Labour, the Lib Dems, the Greens or any other opposition party.

It was a referendum called by the Tories to "see off their hardline mob" in the expectation that remain would comfortably win. It was an incredibly poorly designed referendum and Cameron was warned it was divisive and dangerous, he didn't listen. Then when the result was not as Cameron wanted, he went off in a huff. Leaving the country rudderless. May stepped up and then decided she wanted a bigger majority. Called a fatal election that left the country in an even more perilous position. Then she came up with a plan that divided her cabinet which was roundly denounced as being untenable to the EU and Parliament. She persisted and ended up with a weaker plan than she started with after the EU - as everyone said they would - changed the legal position of several aspects within it. Then she was told "you cannot pass this through parliament" for weeks and weeks and months. Yet she persisted. In December she postponed the vote to get more assurances that everyone told her would not come. They did not come. She was then told she had no chance. Yet she persisted and lost embarrassingly. After losing she said "we've heard and will now work across the house to find out what can secure consensus". Only she now appears unable or unwilling or both to actually do that and instead will just persist as was.

Lets be 100% clear. This is a mess, entirely of Conservative party making. They've governed for 9 years, given us failed austerity which has only made the poor, poorer and the rich, richer. They've then had to abandon austerity as public borrowing continues. They promised immigration targets which were entirely unachieveable and even post Brexit they are now rowing back on that. They've taken benefits and welfare payments away from genuinely disabled people yet tried to pretend they were making everyone's lives better. They've increased the levels of poverty in this country.
The mess has nothing at all to do with the remainers who have blocked or tried to block Brexit in any way they can then? You know the Blairs and Cleggs going behind the scenes undermining the negotiations.
They are not being held to task because Corbyn is a joke. But also because the media refuse to hold them to task - I assume because most of them have been bought. It really is the worst time politically I can remember. I thought the 80's were grim, the darkest of dark ages. They were nothing compared to this. Absolutely nothing. At least then the light was a reforming Labour party slowly but surely coming out of its slumber.
Total hysterical nonsense, Carney, failiure to support Mays deal and Sterling will crumble, it's risen! The dead are still being burried and apart from the unions in Birmingham the rubbish is still being collected, employment is at record levels, darkest hour? cobblers.

The public are hoodwinked by propaganda and lies. The Tory party cannot even agree with itself, other than on the point of grand and complete deception.
Another smug remainer who thinks the general public should not be allowed a vote or opinion because he and his pals know best.
I'm really not sure what the answer is, but a revolution might honestly be the only way. We need something very dramatic and potentially catastrophic to happen because otherwise we will continue in the darkest of dark ages with absolutely no light at the end of the tunnel.
If there is a revolution your types would fall under the wheels of the extremists because some of us wouldn't give support for you the time of day, that's how divided this nation is becoming because of you globalists.

Only in your fantasist head have remainers tried to block the negotiations. Blair has been supposedly giving May advice....
No he hasn't and remainers not trying to lock Brexit? you need a pill and a dark room.
The pound has risen because the markets believe no deal is getting less likely. As per the various market experts and stockbrokers interviewed this morning. However, business has an opposing view and believes that the prospects are getting gloomier.
According to the Canadian fool (no offence Monty), you know, one of your 'experts', the pound should have crashed today.
I'm glad you finally acknowledge you are an extremist. Its time to rid this country of extremists.
Clearly you may be able to read but your ability to process what you have read is strictly limited.

[BWFC_Insane]

It's worth pointing out that the tired cynical "thus it ever was" is exactly wrong. Another of this government's pioneering achievements seems to have been seeing off the idea of collective cabinet responsibility.

Indeed. One of my major frustrations in this is how the media have protected May and her cabinet by promoting the "people are fed up with politicians". Since when did a government get a pass for a self created mess? Brexit has nothing to do with Labour, the Lib Dems, the Greens or any other opposition party.

It was a referendum called by the Tories to "see off their hardline mob" in the expectation that remain would comfortably win. It was an incredibly poorly designed referendum and Cameron was warned it was divisive and dangerous, he didn't listen. Then when the result was not as Cameron wanted, he went off in a huff. Leaving the country rudderless. May stepped up and then decided she wanted a bigger majority. Called a fatal election that left the country in an even more perilous position. Then she came up with a plan that divided her cabinet which was roundly denounced as being untenable to the EU and Parliament. She persisted and ended up with a weaker plan than she started with after the EU - as everyone said they would - changed the legal position of several aspects within it. Then she was told "you cannot pass this through parliament" for weeks and weeks and months. Yet she persisted. In December she postponed the vote to get more assurances that everyone told her would not come. They did not come. She was then told she had no chance. Yet she persisted and lost embarrassingly. After losing she said "we've heard and will now work across the house to find out what can secure consensus". Only she now appears unable or unwilling or both to actually do that and instead will just persist as was.

Lets be 100% clear. This is a mess, entirely of Conservative party making. They've governed for 9 years, given us failed austerity which has only made the poor, poorer and the rich, richer. They've then had to abandon austerity as public borrowing continues. They promised immigration targets which were entirely unachieveable and even post Brexit they are now rowing back on that. They've taken benefits and welfare payments away from genuinely disabled people yet tried to pretend they were making everyone's lives better. They've increased the levels of poverty in this country.
The mess has nothing at all to do with the remainers who have blocked or tried to block Brexit in any way they can then? You know the Blairs and Cleggs going behind the scenes undermining the negotiations.
They are not being held to task because Corbyn is a joke. But also because the media refuse to hold them to task - I assume because most of them have been bought. It really is the worst time politically I can remember. I thought the 80's were grim, the darkest of dark ages. They were nothing compared to this. Absolutely nothing. At least then the light was a reforming Labour party slowly but surely coming out of its slumber.
Total hysterical nonsense, Carney, failiure to support Mays deal and Sterling will crumble, it's risen! The dead are still being burried and apart from the unions in Birmingham the rubbish is still being collected, employment is at record levels, darkest hour? cobblers.

The public are hoodwinked by propaganda and lies. The Tory party cannot even agree with itself, other than on the point of grand and complete deception.
Another smug remainer who thinks the general public should not be allowed a vote or opinion because he and his pals know best.
I'm really not sure what the answer is, but a revolution might honestly be the only way. We need something very dramatic and potentially catastrophic to happen because otherwise we will continue in the darkest of dark ages with absolutely no light at the end of the tunnel.
If there is a revolution your types would fall under the wheels of the extremists because some of us wouldn't give support for you the time of day, that's how divided this nation is becoming because of you globalists.

Only in your fantasist head have remainers tried to block the negotiations. Blair has been supposedly giving May advice....
No he hasn't and remainers not trying to lock Brexit? you need a pill and a dark room.
The pound has risen because the markets believe no deal is getting less likely. As per the various market experts and stockbrokers interviewed this morning. However, business has an opposing view and believes that the prospects are getting gloomier.
According to the Canadian fool (no offence Monty), you know, one of your 'experts', the pound should have crashed today.
I'm glad you finally acknowledge you are an extremist. Its time to rid this country of extremists.
Clearly you may be able to read but your ability to process what you have read is strictly limited.

"If there is a revolution your types would fall under the wheels of the extremists because some of us wouldn't give support for you the time of day....."

[Lost Leopard Spot]

The public are hoodwinked by propaganda and lies...

Another smug remainer who thinks the general public should not be allowed a vote or opinion because he and his pals know best.

This ^ absolutely.

[BWFC_Insane]

The public are hoodwinked by propaganda and lies...

Another smug remainer who thinks the general public should not be allowed a vote or opinion because he and his pals know best.

This ^ absolutely.

I'd rather be a smug remainer than a Brexit fantasist.

To be fair LLS is not a fantasist.

Hoboh however, very much is.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

And oh look, the poll on a second referendum is giving almost exactly the same result as the result from the first referendum (in percentage terms)

Let me remind you how that went:

Independent minded, liberal, peace loving, renaissance people, joing together in mutual harmony, agape and unicorn petting For Remaining: 16,141,241. (48.11%)

Racist, deluded, hoodwinked masses of limited intelligence, infiltrated by furtive extremists and islamophobes, brainwashed and bribed into falsely declaring No to our inclusion of an ever expanding non-democratic Super-State ruled by Kaiser Selmayr: 17,410,742 (51.89%)

Or, if we all want to get on together the reality is:
Leave beat Remain by 52 to 48, and the same result would occur today (even for No Deal, some of us especially for No Deal). So let's cut the crap and get the democratic vote of the country in operation.

[Lost Leopard Spot]

M&S to close another 17 stores including the one closest to us (Buxton). My wife was in it just on Saturday: she could hardly move for the amount of people in there - whoever has made this decision is an arse... it's hardly going to drag any more money into your 'empire' from our family and I suspect this will be true of many others, and you're not going to make it as the next fxcking Amazon either - so fxck you M&S. And let's note that this is nothing to do with Brexit, but it will be linked by the desperate.
And the reason I posted this here. Because M&S's reason for these closures are that their annual profits have fallen from £1 billion to £580 million (and the silly fxcks think closing stores will Increase profits?). And we as a country are about to hand over the equivalent of Sixty Seven years worth of M&S profit in one go out of the pockets of the citizens of this country to Selmayr, Juncker, Tusk et Al, just so they can deny us access to Galileo, the Euratom Programme etc and then think about whether they might just do a deal with us, even though 42% of their exports go to us.

[Hoboh]

So because I wouldn't support you against extremists in your revolt that makes me an extremist?
The only person suffering from delusion and fantasy is you, Blair is a political has been, face facts.
Oh I forgot a liar far worse than anything you throw at May responsible for the loss of large sums of money and human life, There, feel better Social Boy!

[BWFC_Insane]

So because I wouldn't support you against extremists in your revolt that makes me an extremist?
The only person suffering from delusion and fantasy is you, Blair is a political has been, face facts.

When you describe "extremists" and "us" there can be only one conclusion.