Student protests

[Lofthouse Lower]

The students were from Bury College, so perhaps that's where the confusion began

[thebish]

Was in for Bury for about four hours today and saw nothing of real note. A few bunches of weird-looking creatures shuffling about dressed like extras from a bad Western but that was it. Not the sort anybody would be head-hunting to take their companies forward unless looks really do deceive. Great unwashed is no bad description. No student allowance for soap or razor-blades then.

c'mon Tango - you're better than that. (aren't you?)

[Worthy4England]

Was in for Bury for about four hours today and saw nothing of real note. A few bunches of weird-looking creatures shuffling about dressed like extras from a bad Western but that was it. Not the sort anybody would be head-hunting to take their companies forward unless looks really do deceive. Great unwashed is no bad description. No student allowance for soap or razor-blades then.

That's cos they were all in Manchester....

Aye - Christmas Markets have now started - got to have somewhere to spend all that money you haven't got.

[William the White]

William, can I ask you, as an industry professional, for your view on the shear numbers of students that now go through Uni? We now have 40% of students in higher education going onto Uni whereas the economic powerhouse that is Germany's figure is only 19%.

Can you give me the source of that stat, Bruce? Does it include all German degree-awarding bodies? There's a range of specialist providers supplementing the German system - Colleges of Art and Music, Colleges of Applied Science, perhaps others. We used to have similar institutions that now are pretty much subsumed into the university system.

That said, I'm not sure the question you're asking.

In my subject, which is very much craft-based, I do get a small number of students who aren't ready for degree-level education and some that I think never will be. They mostly don't make it onto a second year, usually leaving voluntarily. I think there are problems with grade inflation across the system, and I've posted on that before - it's particularly the case in the 2(i) category. But, mostly, the students are well equipped and ready for the life-changing experience that is higher education.

[TANGODANCER]

Was in for Bury for about four hours today and saw nothing of real note. A few bunches of weird-looking creatures shuffling about dressed like extras from a bad Western but that was it. Not the sort anybody would be head-hunting to take their companies forward unless looks really do deceive. Great unwashed is no bad description. No student allowance for soap or razor-blades then.

c'mon Tango - you're better than that. (aren't you?)

Simply said what I saw. I've had two daughters at Uni, don't remember them ever looking like that and believe me, they're just ordinary girls. Not looking for a debate, just adding a comment to a lot more.

[William the White]

Students are as washed as any other group of people.

Most people are just playing with the great unwashed guff - but, amazingly, tango, you found some in the semi-real world of Bury.

Well done! I'm glad you weren't just letting a little harmless prejudice wave in the wind like the other posters.

[thebish]

Was in for Bury for about four hours today and saw nothing of real note. A few bunches of weird-looking creatures shuffling about dressed like extras from a bad Western but that was it. Not the sort anybody would be head-hunting to take their companies forward unless looks really do deceive. Great unwashed is no bad description. No student allowance for soap or razor-blades then.

c'mon Tango - you're better than that. (aren't you?)

Simply said what I saw. I've had two daughters at Uni, don't remember them ever looking like that and believe me, they're just ordinary girls. Not looking for a debate, just adding a comment to a lot more.

not objecting to the fact you are posting - just that what u said is a hideously lame...

if you looked around when your daughters were at uni - you will have seen a huge variety of people - washed/unwashed, bearded/smooth, black/white, shy/outgoing, kind/mean, beautiful/ugly, straight/gay, nice/horrible, bigoted/tolerant, lazy/dedicated.....

in short - you'd have seen a wide spectrum of humanity - just as you would today. There is no decade where students were all hard-working dedicated pillars of society - in fact - I would argue there are more dedicated hard-working students NOW than the 60s and 70s - which decade were your girls at uni?

[Bruce Rioja]

Can you give me the source of that stat, Bruce?

Indeed, William, and I should have earlier. You may recall me mentioning that a couple of weeks ago that I was present at this Cardiff Ambassadors' Gala Dinner. The one at which Sir David Lewis was the keynote speaker. Well, also at the top table was Dr David Grant (Vice-Chancellor of Cardiff University) an absolutely lovely bloke and also a guy that thinks that the British University system deals in too many worthless degrees - hence his quoting of those figures.

[Worthy4England]

Can you give me the source of that stat, Bruce?

Indeed, William, and I should have earlier. You may recall me mentioning that a couple of weeks ago that I was present at this Cardiff Ambassadors' Gala Dinner. The one at which Sir David Lewis was the keynote speaker. Well, also at the top table was Dr David Grant (Vice-Chancellor of Cardiff University) an absolutely lovely bloke and also a guy that thinks that the British University system deals in too many worthless degrees - hence his quoting of those figures.

What the bloody hell would Dr David Grant know about education?

[William the White]

Can you give me the source of that stat, Bruce?

Indeed, William, and I should have earlier. You may recall me mentioning that a couple of weeks ago that I was present at this Cardiff Ambassadors' Gala Dinner. The one at which Sir David Lewis was the keynote speaker. Well, also at the top table was Dr David Grant (Vice-Chancellor of Cardiff University) an absolutely lovely bloke and also a guy that thinks that the British University system deals in too many worthless degrees - hence his quoting of those figures.

I've had a quick look and can't find anything confirming that figure. I've had a number of European students - two from Germany - because a lot of Continental Europe doesn't offer a degree in my subject. Dr Grant may have been making a polemical point and finding a stat to suit him. Even nice people can fall to that temptation. Did he name any degrees he found 'worthless'?

[Worthy4England]

Can you give me the source of that stat, Bruce?

Indeed, William, and I should have earlier. You may recall me mentioning that a couple of weeks ago that I was present at this Cardiff Ambassadors' Gala Dinner. The one at which Sir David Lewis was the keynote speaker. Well, also at the top table was Dr David Grant (Vice-Chancellor of Cardiff University) an absolutely lovely bloke and also a guy that thinks that the British University system deals in too many worthless degrees - hence his quoting of those figures.

I've had a quick look and can't find anything confirming that figure. I've had a number of European students - two from Germany - because a lot of Continental Europe doesn't offer a degree in my subject. Dr Grant may have been making a polemical point and finding a stat to suit him. Even nice people can fall to that temptation. Did he name any degrees he found 'worthless'?

Be interesting whether he meant specific degrees that were worthless (i.e. the whole Media studies thing ), or particular classifications of degree. (i.e. a Richard).

10 Years ago, occasionally the business I'm in would interview the odd person with a 2:2. Now, you're lucky if you can slip through the net with a 2:1, given that the volume of firsts has doubled over the same timeframe.

Oh by the way, you can study Welsh at Cardiff university - doesn't come much more worthless than that.

[William the White]

the whole Media studies thing

[Worthy4England]

the whole Media studies thing

Not intentionally - it's just the one that's most often quoted on here.

The point remains the same - whether he was pointing to particular courses or particular degree classifications being devalued...

[thebish]

The BBC had some figures published by the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills from March this year looking back at 2008/9 as follows:

Provisional figures, showing university entrance for 2008-09, show that 51% of young women entered higher education - up from 49% the previous year.

The overall figures also show an all-time high of 45% going to university, including 40% of young men.

Showing the scale of the social change - 20 years ago only about one in five young women went into higher education and 30 years ago it was about one in 10.

In the early 1960s, only about one in 20 young people were going into higher education.

A decade ago, although a slightly different measurement was used, 41% of women were going to university and 37% of men.

There had been a longstanding target for 50% of young people to go to university, which has never been achieved - not least because of a relatively slower growth in male numbers.

Until the early-1990s, more men than women were going to university - but since then women have taken an increasing proportion of places.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/8596504.stm

I have no figures for Germany... though there are a number of factors that makes a simple comparison dangerous...

1. their hugely bigger programme of graduate apprenticeships which may not show up in a simple count of university places taken
2. the fact that a large number of professions (like nursing) are not fed through the university system as they are in the UK but through other colleges that are often not counted in the university bracket
3. the specialised "universities" of applied science - which (again) are often not counted in the traditional university bracket when comparisons are made
4. military/civilian service - which most young men will have to do before they go to university - doesn't stop them ultimately - but is a pretty big difference that our young men do not have to deal with

[William the White]

the whole Media studies thing

Not intentionally - it's just the one that's most often quoted on here.

The point remains the same - whether he was pointing to particular courses or particular degree classifications being devalued...

Yes - it would be interesting to know...

I've made the point about grade inflation myself... And your example is interesting.

A 2(i) should be a very good degree - and, indeed, some very good students obtain this...

BUT, at the lower end of the degree I feel there are a number of 2(ii) students being treated kindly.

I'm trying to deal with this in my degree course - but, as you point out, many employers are dubious about the validity of the classification and it should be dealt with by the sector, not individual degree programmes.

External examiners should be leading the way in querying this.

A 3rd is hardly awarded these days. Hardly anyone fails (in truth, failing students have usually left before the final year).

I'd be surprised if firsts have doubled in the last ten years. They certainly haven't on my course or in my department at Bolton uni. It is hard to get a first - so it should be - less than 10% of students do so in my field, and it usually varies between 4% and 8%. Where did the figure come from? Perhaps we should improve our teaching if other unis have doubled their firsts.

[Worthy4England]

the whole Media studies thing

Not intentionally - it's just the one that's most often quoted on here.

The point remains the same - whether he was pointing to particular courses or particular degree classifications being devalued...

Yes - it would be interesting to know...

I've made the point about grade inflation myself... And your example is interesting.

A 2(i) should be a very good degree - and, indeed, some very good students obtain this...

BUT, at the lower end of the degree I feel there are a number of 2(ii) students being treated kindly.

I'm trying to deal with this in my degree course - but, as you point out, many employers are dubious about the validity of the classification and it should be dealt with by the sector, not individual degree programmes.

External examiners should be leading the way in querying this.

A 3rd is hardly awarded these days. Hardly anyone fails (in truth, failing students have usually left before the final year).

I'd be surprised if firsts have doubled in the last ten years. They certainly haven't on my course or in my department at Bolton uni. It is hard to get a first - so it should be - less than 10% of students do so in my field, and it usually varies between 4% and 8%. Where did the figure come from? Perhaps we should improve our teaching if other unis have doubled their firsts.

The figure came from HESA statistics, referenced in this article

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... seven.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It seems to point to there being about 14% Firsts in 2008/9 compared with about 7.7% in 1996/7.

From an employers viewpoint (as someone periodically involved in the interview process), I didn't generally used to be too fussed what the Degree is in, as we typically put people on Grad programmes where we train them ourselves. So we were looking for a level of capability. Over the last few years, as many employers have noted, that's becoming more and more difficult, as the same set of HESA stats seem to show that 62% now get a 2:1 or a First.

As much as the various bodies would have us believe that this is because there's just more brighter people about, we don't generally believe them, so rather than creating additional opportunities, it occasionally rules our good 2:1 students, as they don't make it to the interview. It also rules out some generally bright people that just happen to have studied a degree that isn't particularly useful to us.

[Bruce Rioja]

I've had a quick look and can't find anything confirming that figure. I've had a number of European students - two from Germany - because a lot of Continental Europe doesn't offer a degree in my subject. Dr Grant may have been making a polemical point and finding a stat to suit him. Even nice people can fall to that temptation. Did he name any degrees he found 'worthless'?

Maybe - he wasn't specific regarding subjects or grading. Another figure he came up with though that I thought fairly impressive was that last year Cardiff Uni brought in an additional £1.4m through undertaking research projects for private sector industry. Is that sort of thing fairly common amongst Universities?

[ratbert]

I've had a quick look and can't find anything confirming that figure. I've had a number of European students - two from Germany - because a lot of Continental Europe doesn't offer a degree in my subject. Dr Grant may have been making a polemical point and finding a stat to suit him. Even nice people can fall to that temptation. Did he name any degrees he found 'worthless'?

Maybe - he wasn't specific regarding subjects or grading. Another figure he came up with though that I thought fairly impressive was that last year Cardiff Uni brought in an additional £1.4m through undertaking research projects for private sector industry. Is that sort of thing fairly common amongst Universities?

Yes - Warwick Uni's Centre for the Automotive Industry is what it says - researching and developing new technology for the major car and vehicle manufacturers, and very successfully.

[bobo the clown]

the whole Media studies thing

particular degree classifications being devalued...

Yes - it would be interesting to know...

I've made the point about grade inflation myself... And your example is interesting.

A 2(i) should be a very good degree - and, indeed, some very good students obtain this...

I'm trying to deal with this in my degree course - but, as you point out, many employers are dubious about the validity of the classification and it should be dealt with by the sector, not individual degree programmes.

External examiners should be leading the way in querying this.

I'd be surprised if firsts have doubled in the last ten years. They certainly haven't on my course or in my department at Bolton uni. It is hard to get a first - so it should be - less than 10% of students do so in my field, and it usually varies between 4% and 8%. Where did the figure come from? Perhaps we should improve our teaching if other unis have doubled their firsts.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... seven.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It seems to point to there being about 14% Firsts in 2008/9 compared with about 7.7% in 1996/7.

From an employers viewpoint (as someone periodically involved in the interview process),

but now HESA stats seem to show that 62% now get a 2:1 or a First.

The problem being that institutes, albeit audited AFTER THE EVENT award their own qualifications.

So, despite the attempts to prevent it, the result is that there is an unspoken 'Ivy League' setting up.

I do not take a First from Wolverhampton or (sorry) Bolton as seriously as I take a 2(i) or even a 2(ii) from Liverpool, or Leeds or UCL even in the same subject.

Employers are now looking, more than ever, at WHERE it was obtained rather than the grade per se. Also, they look at the reasons the graduate is at one of the lower light Uni's. If they got into Glyndwr Uni (Wrexham) with 2 x Grade E A levels and then get a first they have either had a miracle intellectual development or the two courses are not equivilant &/or the marking is more lenient.

Top recruiters take this into account now. These aren't theories I'm stating, but facts.

[Worthy4England]

The problem being that institutes, albeit audited AFTER THE EVENT award their own qualifications.

So, despite the attempts to prevent it, the result is that there is an unspoken 'Ivy League' setting up.

I do not take a First from Wolverhampton or (sorry) Bolton as seriously as I take a 2(i) or even a 2(ii) from Liverpool, or Leeds or UCL even in the same subject.

Employers are now looking, more than ever, at WHERE it was obtained rather than the grade per se. Also, they look at the reasons the graduate is at one of the lower light Uni's. If they got into Glyndwr Uni (Wrexham) with 2 x Grade E A levels and then get a first they have either had a miracle intellectual development or the two courses are not equivilant &/or the marking is more lenient.

Top recruiters take this into account now. These aren't theories I'm stating, but facts.

Yessir. Part of what I'm talking about - we use recruitment agencies fairly widely, so because of the filter effect of the recruitment agencies (often driven by our feedback too) and then the ones we still bin anyhow before meeting them, the whole system is not doing itself any favours nor the individuals any favours.