The Politics Thread

[Hoboh]

The UK's payments to the European Union almost doubled in 2010, according to the latest data issued yesterday by the Office for National Statistics – soaring to £230 for every household in the country.


The ONS said yesterday that the net transfer of funds from Britain to EU institutions rose from £5.3bn in 2009 to £9.2bn in 2010, a jump of almost £4bn, or 74 per cent – enough to avoid the recent rise in national insurance or the new 50p rate of tax. The UK's contributions to the EU are at their highest level ever, and one of the very few areas of public spending set to increase in coming years despite the cutbacks being made across Britain.

The largest single contribution to the rise was the reduction in the UK's "rebate" from the EU, originally negotiated by Margaret Thatcher in 1984, when she famously asked for "our money back".

The deal reflected the relative efficiency of British agriculture, which saw relatively little benefit from the EU's Common Agricultural Policy and had resulted in extremely large net transfers to the EU under the 1972 Treaty of Rome. With the accession in 2004 of new, and poorer EU members from eastern Europe – such as Poland, Romania and Bulgaria – the pressure on EU resources to boost economic development and subsidise farming there led to renewed calls on Britain to give up what is officially termed the "abatement".

This was partially agreed by the Blair government, and is now leading to rapid worsening in the UK's financial relationship with the EU.

Thus, the rebate was slashed in 2010 by £2.3bn to just £3bn, and Britain also lost £300m in agricultural subsidies, and paid a further extra £900m to Brussels under complex rules related to the national income and the VAT take. A 2.9 per cent rise in the EU budget has been agreed for 2011.

The ONS also revealed that the UK's trade deficit with the EU ballooned from £14.3bn to £46.6bn last year.

The UK Exchequer is further exposed to rescuing distressed members of the eurozone via a small European Commission fund and Britain's contributions to the IMF, which is also helping fund eurozone bailouts. In all, this could amount to around £10bn in rescue loans.

Labour, good for the country? not!!!
Europe, its sooooo good for us!!! Not!

Ok Euro lovers why is it good for us to be members without all the we need them bullsh*t?
Trade? see above,
Handouts? we seem after the Germans to be paying for the rest of Europe and the French Farmers.
As a bit of a side issue we should push for Scottish independance right now, Fish you are a jumped up money grabbing Jock go to hell without English money!

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Trade? see above,

See what?

Whether they buy more from us than we buy from them (always likely, given that 'they' are all of the EU and we are just the UK!) is not as important as the question of whether we could do without the money we get for what we do export.

And besides, the fact that we want to buy a hell of a lot of what's on offer in the EU is hardly an argument for stopping our arrangements.

Now come on Hoboh, please.

[Hoboh]

Oh dear!
Simples its just one reason the rest of Europe need the UK, it was an example of why if we were not in the EU, they couldn't afford to cast us aside like all the pro Europe doom mongers predict will happen. Sorry worded it wrong

[Hoboh]

Relations between Britain and France plunged to a new low yesterday when the head of the French central bank called for the UK’s gold-plated credit rating to be downgraded.
The inflammatory attack on the British economy by Christian Noyer was quickly branded evidence of a cross channel ‘Entente Discordiale’ over the future of the euro.
Mr Noyer, who also sits on the board of the European Central Bank, said the markets should ‘start by downgrading Britain’ – a move that would see interest rates rise, costing mortgage payers thousands of pounds a year.The row erupted amid signs that the deal designed to save the euro from collapse, thrashed out by France and Germany in Brussels last week, is imploding.
Both the Czech government and Hungary yesterday said they would follow David Cameron and refuse to sign the new treaty unless Germans demands to harmonise Eurozone tax rates are dropped.Mr Noyer lashed out at Britain after credit rating agencies warned that France’ s AAA credit rating could be downgraded amid fears that the Eurozone have failed to do enough to prop up bankrupt economies in the single currency or overstretched Eurozone banks.
In an interview with Le Telegramme newspaper, he said: ‘A downgrade does not appear to me to be justified when considering economic fundamentals. ‘Otherwise, they should start by downgrading Britain, which has more deficits, as much debt, more inflation, less growth than us and where credit is slumping.’
Mr Noyer’s attack came a day after French President Nicolas Sarkozy accused David Cameron of behaving like an ‘obstinate kid’ for vetoing an EU-wide deal last week. He has previously told the Prime Minister to ‘shut up’ about the single currency’s problems.

Ok Europhiles this is one of our so called Friends from the EU?

Told you we won't be alone long.

[Worthy4England]

Relations between Britain and France plunged to a new low yesterday when the head of the French central bank called for the UK’s gold-plated credit rating to be downgraded.
The inflammatory attack on the British economy by Christian Noyer was quickly branded evidence of a cross channel ‘Entente Discordiale’ over the future of the euro.
Mr Noyer, who also sits on the board of the European Central Bank, said the markets should ‘start by downgrading Britain’ – a move that would see interest rates rise, costing mortgage payers thousands of pounds a year.The row erupted amid signs that the deal designed to save the euro from collapse, thrashed out by France and Germany in Brussels last week, is imploding.
Both the Czech government and Hungary yesterday said they would follow David Cameron and refuse to sign the new treaty unless Germans demands to harmonise Eurozone tax rates are dropped.Mr Noyer lashed out at Britain after credit rating agencies warned that France’ s AAA credit rating could be downgraded amid fears that the Eurozone have failed to do enough to prop up bankrupt economies in the single currency or overstretched Eurozone banks.
In an interview with Le Telegramme newspaper, he said: ‘A downgrade does not appear to me to be justified when considering economic fundamentals. ‘Otherwise, they should start by downgrading Britain, which has more deficits, as much debt, more inflation, less growth than us and where credit is slumping.’
Mr Noyer’s attack came a day after French President Nicolas Sarkozy accused David Cameron of behaving like an ‘obstinate kid’ for vetoing an EU-wide deal last week. He has previously told the Prime Minister to ‘shut up’ about the single currency’s problems.

Ok Europhiles this is one of our so called Friends from the EU?

Told you we won't be alone long.

Majorly different than Torie's slagging Labour off or vice-versa? Not really.

No one said all parties will universally agree on everyything. If we did, there'd be no problems with being a single Europe as we'd agree on everything...

[Lord Kangana]

The Czechs and Hungarians?

Nice to see we're setting the bar high hobo.

[Hoboh]

The Czechs and Hungarians?

Nice to see we're setting the bar high hobo.

Mock away others will follow, Merkel is even making soothing noise about our position it seems the trecherous frogs are becoming isolated slowly. The irish will be on board soon and the spanish etc when they finally realise just how little say they will have in deciding their own futures. The political Europe is slowly dying and a return to a common market is the only way forwards one that does not seek to grow at the expense of the tax payers of its member states.

[thebish]

The Czechs and Hungarians?

Nice to see we're setting the bar high hobo.

it's the blue-square premiership we're in now...

[Gail Platz]

I'm not massive on politics but from what I've seen, I wouldn't trust any of the 'big three' leaders.

I can't stand Ed Miliband and Nick Clegg is the least trustworthy of the lot. I tend to sway towards UKIP as I'm massively against the amount of money we're pumping out to bail out Greece and the rest, I doubt there'll ever be a time where they'd do it for us.

Maybe some people with a bit more 'knowledge' can enlighten me, but apart from the economic benefits we get from the EU (which from the sound of things we could still get if we came out of it), what benefit does the EU bring? All I hear about is immigration and bail outs. Surely we're better off out of it?

[Lord Kangana]

You trust Nigel " I'd sell my own grandmother" Farage above the other lot?

Seriously?

[Hoboh]

Out, trust me

[thebish]

Arggghhh!!! the bloody EU has just banned Christmas!! the bastards!!!

[Lord Kangana]

There are no surprises left after they* banned us from drinking water.

*Brussels Barmpots (presumabely including Nigel Farage then?).

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

The Czechs and Hungarians?

Nice to see we're setting the bar high hobo.

it's the blue-square premiership we're in now...

This is so simplistic it's below you both.

Even if we were not a genuinely sui generis case (which we are), which 'Premier League' countries are available for alliance in the EU?

Germany and France want fundamentally different things from the EU to us.

Spain and Italy are both screwed and completely at the mercy of the Merkozy axis.

So too Ireland and Portugal.

Belgium is the centre of the project.

Who does this leave?

The Netherlands? It would be remarkable for them to choose us over their near neighbours. Even if the wonderful Dutch people do have a distinguished history of giving the EU elites a bloody nose.

Poland? An emerging powerhouse, the only EU country to register growth every year through the crises since 2007... but absolutely dependent on Germany for these fortunes.

Seems to me that all we're left with is the likes of, oh I don't know, the Czech Republic and Hungary.

[Lord Kangana]

I would say that rather than looking around for the spotty kid with glasses who no-one wants to play in nets, we try and get the biggest kids on our side to try and win the game.

I believe Dodgeball teaches us this lesson.

And besides, the French and Germans want fundamentaly different things to each other, let alone us. Thats the nature of having a Union. You get together, hammer out your differences, keep the dialogue open, try and get the best deal, but are also prepared to compromise for a greater good. It would be equally simplistic and below you to suggest we could and should always get our own way.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I would say that rather than looking around for the spotty kid with glasses who no-one wants to play in nets, we try and get the biggest kids on our side to try and win the game.

I believe Dodgeball teaches us this lesson.

And besides, the French and Germans want fundamentaly different things to each other, let alone us. Thats the nature of having a Union. You get together, hammer out your differences, keep the dialogue open, try and get the best deal, but are also prepared to compromise for a greater good. It would be equally simplistic and below you to suggest we could and should always get our own way.

Sorry, what does winning look like? What game are we playing here? What is the greater good?

The only good I'm interested in is Britain being part of a well-functioning single market, with the minimum amount of regulation possible to enable it to function properly, whilst at the same time retaining sovereignty. Is this unreasonable and uncooperative?

[Lord Kangana]

No, I'm merely pointing out that sticking with the powerless margins isn't the way to gain influence, or indeed our own way.

And lets be honest here, with the massive banking crisis we're in the middle of, sovereignty has proved to be about as much use as Anne Frank's drum kit.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I'm just not sure that we gain influence by going along with things we don't want a part of or pretending we think things that we don't?

And it's true, self determination is no antidote to a global banking crisis, but that doesn't make it any less desirable as a general principle.

[thebish]

The Czechs and Hungarians?

Nice to see we're setting the bar high hobo.

it's the blue-square premiership we're in now...

This is so simplistic it's below you both.

Even if we were not a genuinely sui generis case (which we are), which 'Premier League' countries are available for alliance in the EU?

Germany and France want fundamentally different things from the EU to us.

this is so simplistic as to be beneath you.

it's preposterous to suggest that we can have no alliance because we want different things.

[Worthy4England]

We do also seem to keep coming back to X or Y wanting "different things to us", which I think is probably incorrect 1) because "us" isn't particularly clear - Government? People? Businesses? And 2) depending on the "us" they probably don't want fundamentally different things, they probably want the same things but are approaching it differently.