The Politics Thread

[Prufrock]

The only question I ask Hobo, is if it was you, would you complain? Because if they are under no obligation to make public any evidence, indeed prove anything, what is to stop it happening to any of us?

You must have heard of Pastor Niemoller? Have we learned nothing as human beings?

No I wouldn't, you are right, but the point is it Dosen't happen to just anyone. Yes mistakes do get made in all walks of life and areas but how much ground should be given for these people to invade?
Being democratic does not mean accepting acts of terror as a price for that stand, democracy is a fable any way, most major desicions and things that affect our lifes are done behind closed doors, European Constitution anyone?
All I'm getting at is protection and safety of many outweigh the same for the very minority few and the number is not that vast.
If we started deporting 20,000 suspected terrorists every year, then it would be seen as a joke and would be very questionable, 20-30 it would proberbly be about right for our security.


In Germany they first came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me —
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

Chilling if we were all Nazis not sensible people.
These are matters of the past that none should forget but the world has moved on.

Thats how it always starts. Every totalitarian state starts by claiming they are doing things for 'the greater good'. Im not suggesting we are quite on the path to totalitarianism just yet, but i agree with LK that we dont seem to be going forwards democraticaly or economically.

As for this particular guy, if the police had anything concrete they would have presented it at the trial. If they dont, then they have no right to try to deport the guy unless he is here illegally.

[Hoboh]

The only question I ask Hobo, is if it was you, would you complain? Because if they are under no obligation to make public any evidence, indeed prove anything, what is to stop it happening to any of us?

You must have heard of Pastor Niemoller? Have we learned nothing as human beings?

No I wouldn't, you are right, but the point is it Dosen't happen to just anyone. Yes mistakes do get made in all walks of life and areas but how much ground should be given for these people to invade?
Being democratic does not mean accepting acts of terror as a price for that stand, democracy is a fable any way, most major desicions and things that affect our lifes are done behind closed doors, European Constitution anyone?
All I'm getting at is protection and safety of many outweigh the same for the very minority few and the number is not that vast.
If we started deporting 20,000 suspected terrorists every year, then it would be seen as a joke and would be very questionable, 20-30 it would proberbly be about right for our security.


In Germany they first came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me —
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

Chilling if we were all Nazis not sensible people.
These are matters of the past that none should forget but the world has moved on.

Thats how it always starts. Every totalitarian state starts by claiming they are doing things for 'the greater good'. Im not suggesting we are quite on the path to totalitarianism just yet, but i agree with LK that we dont seem to be going forwards democraticaly or economically.

As for this particular guy, if the police had anything concrete they would have presented it at the trial. If they dont, then they have no right to try to deport the guy unless he is here illegally.

Pru, if you will forgive me that is a cop out!
What do we do then for our safety?
If hypothetically the guy gets involved in a few years with another terrorist who goes on to kill and main large numbers of people, do we wring our hands and say "Ah well thats the price we pay for our democracy" and its a price worth paying?

[Lord Kangana]

Arresting people without evidence and deporting them without trial is hardly democratic or free, so in essence you're not offering much of a choice.

[Hoboh]

At the risk of sounding crude, IMO its a better choice than burying the dead.

[Lord Kangana]

So we're destined as human beings to continue in a vicious cycle of revenge and retribution to the end of our days? Its a little bit of a pointless existence, isn't it?

[Hoboh]

So we're destined as human beings to continue in a vicious cycle of revenge and retribution to the end of our days? Its a little bit of a pointless existence, isn't it?

No not really, lifes all about putting in and taking out. Politics however is like religion open to abuse and worse still easy to abuse!!

Heres a bit more about your pastor if you are interested, he would have upset me with his views on NATO tho'

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERniemoller.htm

[Prufrock]

The only question I ask Hobo, is if it was you, would you complain? Because if they are under no obligation to make public any evidence, indeed prove anything, what is to stop it happening to any of us?

You must have heard of Pastor Niemoller? Have we learned nothing as human beings?

No I wouldn't, you are right, but the point is it Dosen't happen to just anyone. Yes mistakes do get made in all walks of life and areas but how much ground should be given for these people to invade?
Being democratic does not mean accepting acts of terror as a price for that stand, democracy is a fable any way, most major desicions and things that affect our lifes are done behind closed doors, European Constitution anyone?
All I'm getting at is protection and safety of many outweigh the same for the very minority few and the number is not that vast.
If we started deporting 20,000 suspected terrorists every year, then it would be seen as a joke and would be very questionable, 20-30 it would proberbly be about right for our security.


In Germany they first came for the Communists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist.

Then they came for the Jews,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Jew.

Then they came for the trade unionists,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Catholics,
and I didn't speak up because I was a Protestant.

Then they came for me —
and by that time no one was left to speak up.

Chilling if we were all Nazis not sensible people.
These are matters of the past that none should forget but the world has moved on.

Thats how it always starts. Every totalitarian state starts by claiming they are doing things for 'the greater good'. Im not suggesting we are quite on the path to totalitarianism just yet, but i agree with LK that we dont seem to be going forwards democraticaly or economically.

As for this particular guy, if the police had anything concrete they would have presented it at the trial. If they dont, then they have no right to try to deport the guy unless he is here illegally.

Pru, if you will forgive me that is a cop out!
What do we do then for our safety?
If hypothetically the guy gets involved in a few years with another terrorist who goes on to kill and main large numbers of people, do we wring our hands and say "Ah well thats the price we pay for our democracy" and its a price worth paying?

As LK says its not a choice. We cannot let the terrorists win. Our strenghts, and our principles are freedom and democracy, a blow against those is a blow for the terrorists. We are judged as a culture, as a civilisation, and as individuals, not by how we treat people when the times are good, but how we deal with them in times of trouble. We stand for democracy. We stand for freedoms, and we stand for the right to be treated innocently and equally until proven otherwise. Most of all we judge ourselves by our ability to treat our enemies the same as our friends, not to get carried away by blood lust and fear, by ingstand by our principles no matter what, and making sure rights and freedoms are afforded to all. There doesnt have to be a compromise. We protect the innocent, and punish the guilty. Skin colour, religion, race and creed bear no influence upon that fact.

This man is guilty of nothing but association. I criminal court has found him not guilty of conspiring with the terrorists. The fact they are considering deportation means I assume he is an immigrant, therefore there are two options.

Either he is a legal immigrant, with every right to be in this country, and who is guilty of nothing but an unfortunate association. If that is the case he cannot be deported, it is ludicrous.

Or the police have some information, either suggesting he is an illegal immigrant, or he is guilty of some other crime (related or not), if that is the case, by all means deport him, AFTER it has been proven in a court of law.

[InsaneApache]

I've said it before but it's worth repeating.

When 9/11 happened the politicos creamed in their jeans. It was/is the perfect excuse to curtail hard won liberties and freedoms. Remember, we are talking about people with a do as I say, not as I do mentality. The Patriot Act in the USA, more and more draconian 'anti-terror' legislation enacted over here are just the start. Any bets on the economic situation spiraling out of control and the administration announcing a 'national government' and suspending elections, believe it or not, they do have that power.

Interesting times we live in.

[Hoboh]

I've said it before but it's worth repeating.

When 9/11 happened the politicos creamed in their jeans. It was/is the perfect excuse to curtail hard won liberties and freedoms. Remember, we are talking about people with a do as I say, not as I do mentality. The Patriot Act in the USA, more and more draconian 'anti-terror' legislation enacted over here are just the start. Any bets on the economic situation spiraling out of control and the administration announcing a 'national government' and suspending elections, believe it or not, they do have that power.

Interesting times we live in.

It would be if the Queen then excersiced her right to disolve Parliment and leave the National Goverment out in the wilderness,
Up the Cavaliers I say

[superjohnmcginlay]

Europe - Workshy bastards.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7786825.stm

[Lord Kangana]

Aye, cos increased productivity and better working conditions are just not cricket.

[superjohnmcginlay]

Aye, cos increased productivity and better working conditions are just not cricket.

Not being able to earn overtime money certainly isnt.

[Lord Kangana]

And for the majority of people who regularly do unpaid overtime?

[superjohnmcginlay]

And for the majority of people who regularly do unpaid overtime?

Depends. People like me who do unpaid overtime do it because we want to get the job done. Others I cant speak for. That along with the people who rely on overtime is why this limit on the working week isnt the way forward.

[Worthy4England]

And for the majority of people who regularly do unpaid overtime?

Depends. People like me who do unpaid overtime do it because we want to get the job done. Others I cant speak for. That along with the people who rely on overtime is why this limit on the working week isnt the way forward.

I think over time, the "reliance" on overtime would become less of an issue. I'd be delighted to join the "work-shy" Europeans on this one.

[superjohnmcginlay]

And for the majority of people who regularly do unpaid overtime?

Depends. People like me who do unpaid overtime do it because we want to get the job done. Others I cant speak for. That along with the people who rely on overtime is why this limit on the working week isnt the way forward.

I think over time, the "reliance" on overtime would become less of an issue. I'd be delighted to join the "work-shy" Europeans on this one.

Well thats an If, and it certainly isnt the case with a lot of the lads I go drinking with and have worked with. I wouldnt.

[Worthy4England]

And for the majority of people who regularly do unpaid overtime?

Depends. People like me who do unpaid overtime do it because we want to get the job done. Others I cant speak for. That along with the people who rely on overtime is why this limit on the working week isnt the way forward.

I think over time, the "reliance" on overtime would become less of an issue. I'd be delighted to join the "work-shy" Europeans on this one.

Well thats an If, and it certainly isnt the case with a lot of the lads I go drinking with and have worked with. I wouldnt.

You wouldn't what? I'm confused.

[superjohnmcginlay]

And for the majority of people who regularly do unpaid overtime?

Depends. People like me who do unpaid overtime do it because we want to get the job done. Others I cant speak for. That along with the people who rely on overtime is why this limit on the working week isnt the way forward.

I think over time, the "reliance" on overtime would become less of an issue. I'd be delighted to join the "work-shy" Europeans on this one.

Well thats an If, and it certainly isnt the case with a lot of the lads I go drinking with and have worked with. I wouldnt.

You wouldn't what? I'm confused.

Be delighted to join the "work shy" Europeans on this one.

[Worthy4England]

Depends. People like me who do unpaid overtime do it because we want to get the job done. Others I cant speak for. That along with the people who rely on overtime is why this limit on the working week isnt the way forward.

I think over time, the "reliance" on overtime would become less of an issue. I'd be delighted to join the "work-shy" Europeans on this one.

Well thats an If, and it certainly isnt the case with a lot of the lads I go drinking with and have worked with. I wouldnt.

You wouldn't what? I'm confused.

Be delighted to join the "work shy" Europeans on this one.

Well, I guess the opportunity to not work 40-odd hours unpaid overtime in a week, would be just fine and dandy round at our house. Never know, might get to see things like the kids growing up and all. 37.5 hours paid work gets my vote every day of the week.

[superjohnmcginlay]

I think over time, the "reliance" on overtime would become less of an issue. I'd be delighted to join the "work-shy" Europeans on this one.

Well thats an If, and it certainly isnt the case with a lot of the lads I go drinking with and have worked with. I wouldnt.

You wouldn't what? I'm confused.

Be delighted to join the "work shy" Europeans on this one.

Well, I guess the opportunity to not work 40-odd hours unpaid overtime in a week, would be just fine and dandy round at our house. Never know, might get to see things like the kids growing up and all. 37.5 hours paid work gets my vote every day of the week.

There you go its down to personal preference and shouldnt be dictated by a one size fits all policy.