The Great Art Debate

[William the White]

God, Emin really rattles a lot of peoples' cages...

I'm pretty unclear how well-founded it is - does it come from even a cursory study of her artistic work or just the 'idea' of Emin that makes people so angry?

[TANGODANCER]

The most significant and honest statement you've made is a simple "to me". That, I can totally accept. It's just those who try to get me to accept that their "great art" should also be mine. That's where the real "why?" factor comes in. To each his own, and no further explanation needed. Just my view.

perhaps you could be clear about who has tried to do that and how - because I haven't seen anyone try to get you to change your mind - merely to describe for us why you think it is you like what you do.

Bish. Read the bold bit. You're complicating a simple issue beyond belief. Who's us? It isn't as even everybody on here agrees with you, is it? If you mean yourself then say so. Try to understand that I speak generally, as I've done throughout and keep the focus where it's supposed to be. You constantly target my views with a counter argument that you are right for insisting on a psychiatric examination of a simple fact. Great art is in the mind of the observer, not the views of so-called experts. I've said this from the beginning. There is no single reason why some people see or feel things differently than others. They just do.

I don't like garlic, but I don't need an explanation from those that do. I love raw onions, others can't stand them. I like dance, others loathe it. It's because we're all different in our likes and dislikes. The normal levels of acceptance range from sheer dislike to calling something great. Why is taste in art so different? I'll repeat, great art is in the minds of the observers. The Tracy Emins of this world are legion. You see her as challenging your intellect, I see her as of no interest to mine. If she can sell it to you, then good luck to you both. The rest is argument for arguments sake. There's nothing to debate about that, surely.

[Worthy4England]

Cursory study.

A messy bed isn't art (for me). It's just a messy bed.

A tent with the names of people she's slept with is non-art too (for me). Had I seen either at a gallery, I would have more than likely strolled right on by.

[Bruce Rioja]

God, Emin really rattles a lot of peoples' cages...

I'm pretty unclear how well-founded it is - does it come from even a cursory study of her artistic work or just the 'idea' of Emin that makes people so angry?

As I said earlier, William......

Should she ever create something that does impress me though then I'm not going to dismiss it simply on the grounds of who it was that came up with it.

Now then..... I haven't made any great inroads into the study off her work, fair enough, but what I have seen has always left me with the feeling that I'm being had for a mug.

[Lord Kangana]

Well I'll be honest, I think she comes across as a right bellcheese. This isn't helped by me seeing no value in her work. So on balance, every time I now see anything about her or her work on the telly, I turn over. I'd rather listen to Salex Ferguson.

[thebish]

The most significant and honest statement you've made is a simple "to me". That, I can totally accept. It's just those who try to get me to accept that their "great art" should also be mine. That's where the real "why?" factor comes in. To each his own, and no further explanation needed. Just my view.

perhaps you could be clear about who has tried to do that and how - because I haven't seen anyone try to get you to change your mind - merely to describe for us why you think it is you like what you do.

Bish. Read the bold bit. You're complicating a simple issue beyond belief. Who's us? It isn't as even everybody on here agrees with you, is it? If you mean yourself then say so. Try to understand that I speak generally, as I've done throughout and keep the focus where it's supposed to be. You constantly target my views with a counter argument that you are right for insisting on a psychiatric examination of a simple fact. Great art is in the mind of the observer, not the views of so-called experts. I've said this from the beginning. There is no single reason why some people see or feel things differently than others. They just do.

I don't like garlic, but I don't need an explanation from those that do. I love raw onions, others can't stand them. I like dance, others loathe it. It's because we're all different in our likes and dislikes. The normal levels of acceptance range from sheer dislike to calling something great. Why is taste in art so different? I'll repeat, great art is in the minds of the observers. The Tracy Emins of this world are legion. You see her as challenging your intellect, I see her as of no interest to mine. If she can sell it to you, then good luck to you both. The rest is argument for arguments sake. There's nothing to debate about that, surely.

tango - are you deliberately missing the point just to be argumentative??

1. You claim that people are trying to "get me to accept that their "great art" should also be mine." those are your words. I haven't seen anyone try to do that. Nobody is trying to get you to change your taste - I haven't seen anyone attempt that at all.

perhaps you can point me to a place where someone has? (the mere statement of a view that you do not share is NOT the same as trying to make you accept that view.)


2. let me put it another way. This is a forum - for discussion and debate. Let's imagine we were in the footy section. I could post this:

I think the midfield should be Cahill, Jussi, Vaz Te and Nicky Hunt.

someone might reply...

why on earth do you think that? what makes you like the look of that as a lineup?

it would be frankly ridiculous for me to reply..

it's just my opinion, where do you get off being so argumentative and trying to make me like your lineup? Why should I have to give a reason for liking that lineup - I like it - there should be no need for any further explanation - what you like is what you like and what i like is what I like - I just do, it's a simple fact - there is no reason for me to like it or not like it - I just do, end of, so stop bugging me. it's just my opinion.

what would be better, would be for me to try to explain what it is about that lineup that I think might work. no?

(the tracey emins of this world are NOT legion.)

[thebish]

No she doesn't. A piece of work challenges, disturbs and confronts. Show me one piece of her work that does that? It just tells me that someone that's doing something that I'm perfectly capable of chucking together myself is telling me that I'm the philistine if I can't 'engage' with it.

you're either a very talented stitcher and embroiderer on the quiet - or you haven't seen her stitching.... show us some of your stitching!

[William the White]

Cursory study.

A messy bed isn't art (for me). It's just a messy bed.

A tent with the names of people she's slept with is non-art too (for me). Had I seen either at a gallery, I would have more than likely strolled right on by.

I consider both to be a condensed story, of her life.

I could imagine the stories in the tent as a long and erotic and loving and disappointing and sad novel...

I have my own 'tent', my own 'unmade bed', my own list of names, experiences and feelings - these are things we do share with people, with friends, or family or counsellors or through the creation of literature, or drama or art...

Why do you think significant numbers of people find themselves responding to this artist's work, moved by it, willing to stay through the puzzle of it, allow it to interrogate you?

I think it's because they find themselves there, and that's a surprise, a shock and sometimes disturbing and sometimes profoundly satisfying.

There - i've given it a go at explaining why I wouldn't walk past it in a gallery, and why i think it has artistic merit.

My 1000-1 guess is that you and Bruce and Tango are very, very unconvinced. But I'm still mystified why she makes you all so angry...

[Worthy4England]

Cursory study.

A messy bed isn't art (for me). It's just a messy bed.

A tent with the names of people she's slept with is non-art too (for me). Had I seen either at a gallery, I would have more than likely strolled right on by.

I consider both to be a condensed story, of her life.

I could imagine the stories in the tent as a long and erotic and loving and disappointing and sad novel...

I have my own 'tent', my own 'unmade bed', my own list of names, experiences and feelings - these are things we do share with people, with friends, or family or counsellors or through the creation of literature, or drama or art...

Why do you think significant numbers of people find themselves responding to this artist's work, moved by it, willing to stay through the puzzle of it, allow it to interrogate you?

I think it's because they find themselves there, and that's a surprise, a shock and sometimes disturbing and sometimes profoundly satisfying.

There - i've given it a go at explaining why I wouldn't walk past it in a gallery, and why i think it has artistic merit.

My 1000-1 guess is that you and Bruce and Tango are very, very unconvinced. But I'm still mystified why she makes you all so angry...

I hear you, but I have no interest in her messy bed, nor who she's been in bed with, nor quite frankly her life. If those sort of things appealed to me, I'd probably subscribe to Hello magazine or somesuch. I can only respond for myself on why it makes me angry (although part of it is the same/similar response as Brucie's). I don't believe it's "art" and therefore, a little like Bruce, it quite frankly annoys me, when it's given credence as such.

I'm unpersuaded by the "significant numbers people" argument. Significant numbers of people will vote for a different political party than the one I'll vote for, but they're unlikely to be able to convince me they're right. I could contest of the significant numbers, that they're just being populist pseuds. Neither piece puzzles me nor interrogates me - it's inanimate and not really enigmatic (the tent is effectively a list of names). I don't see myself being "shocked" by any artwork, anytime soon (but I'm sure we've done this conversation previously).

[Bruce Rioja]

No she doesn't. A piece of work challenges, disturbs and confronts. Show me one piece of her work that does that? It just tells me that someone that's doing something that I'm perfectly capable of chucking together myself is telling me that I'm the philistine if I can't 'engage' with it.

you're either a very talented stitcher and embroiderer on the quiet - or you haven't seen her stitching.... show us some of your stitching!

I did do some stitching once - I repaired a pair of trousers. It was obviously the best that anyone had ever seen as they all commented that they'd never seen anything quite like it!

[thebish]

No she doesn't. A piece of work challenges, disturbs and confronts. Show me one piece of her work that does that? It just tells me that someone that's doing something that I'm perfectly capable of chucking together myself is telling me that I'm the philistine if I can't 'engage' with it.

you're either a very talented stitcher and embroiderer on the quiet - or you haven't seen her stitching.... show us some of your stitching!

I did do some stitching once - I repaired a pair of trousers. It was obviously the best that anyone had ever seen as they all commented that they'd never seen anything quite like it!

[TANGODANCER]

tango - are you deliberately missing the point just to be argumentative??

1. You claim that people are trying to "get me to accept that their "great art" should also be mine." those are your words. I haven't seen anyone try to do that. Nobody is trying to get you to change your taste - I haven't seen anyone attempt that at all. perhaps you can point me to a place where someone has? (the mere statement of a view that you do not share is NOT the same as trying to make you accept that view.)

Are you diversifying from the topic just to cloud the waters Bish? I've already asked you to stick with the topic. Did you label this thread a debate or not? Are we debating what is great art or what isn't in our views? At least half a dozen times in this tread you claim I'm "missing the point, don't understand the issue" etc. That's frankly, insulting and pompous. I have nowhere claimed that anyone here is trying to change my views, but I could, by the very fact that you keep insinuating I don't understand the view/issue as to what great art is because, it differs to yours. What on earth's so complicated about that? Let me put is simply: "I see/think what I see as great art. Because someone else tells me it is or isn't , then fine. That's a view, not an argument. It has as much value as mine., no more, no less. It isn't stubborness, argument or evading any issues. It's just a simple statement of fact. I'm not accusing anyone of trying a conversion, simply stating I disagree as to what you see as such. There's nothing at all to debate about that.

Isn't a debate, as opposed to a conversation, about one faction proving the other person/team/opposition wrong by constructive fact and counter argument? If it isn't, then no, I don't understand the point. If you meant a discussion you should have just said so. Great art is as individual a taste as great poetry, even great ice-cream.

Amen.

[Bruce Rioja]

Are you diversifying from the topic just to cloud the waters Bish?

Can someone call the Mixed Metaphor Police please? What do you mean - they're already here?

[Bruce Rioja]

Hmm. Seriously Guys. My understanding of the word 'Great' in The Great Art Debate is that it's a great debate about what constitutes art rather than a debate about what constitutes great art.

Am I at crossed purposes with everyone on this?

[Lord Kangana]

If thats any reference to what I put on the previous page, I was taking the piss.

[Worthy4England]

Hmm. Seriously Guys. My understanding of the word 'Great' in The Great Art Debate is that it's a great debate about what constitutes art rather than a debate about what constitutes great art.

Am I at crossed purposes with everyone on this?

I had it down as a debate about great art...otherwise, it would have been the art great debate?

[thebish]

I'm not accusing anyone of trying a conversion, simply stating I disagree as to what you see as such. There's nothing at all to debate about that.

yes you have - that is precisely what I am pressing you about!

you said that PEOPLE are:

"...trying to get me to accept that their "great art" should also be mine."

you actually did type that. I was just asking you to back that up - because I don't believe anyone has.

[Bruce Rioja]

If thats any reference to what I put on the previous page, I was taking the piss.

I guessed that, but no, it's in reference to Tango's comments, above.

[TANGODANCER]

I'm not accusing anyone of trying a conversion, simply stating I disagree as to what you see as such. There's nothing at all to debate about that.

yes you have - that is precisely what I am pressing you about!

"...trying to get me to accept that their "great art" should also be mine."

you actually did type that. I was just asking you to back that up - because I don't believe anyone has.

Please sir, can I be excused on the grounds that I don't understand your issues. I wasn't aware that animals and statues were classed as art experts. I think I'll go and build my boat.

(retires shaking head and vowing to love Tracy Emin and her great art )

[thebish]

I'm not accusing anyone of trying a conversion, simply stating I disagree as to what you see as such. There's nothing at all to debate about that.

yes you have - that is precisely what I am pressing you about!

"...trying to get me to accept that their "great art" should also be mine."

you actually did type that. I was just asking you to back that up - because I don't believe anyone has.

Please sir, can I be excused on the grounds that I don't understand your issues. I wasn't aware that animals and statues were classed as art experts. I think I'll go and build my boat.

(retires shaking head and vowing to love Tracy Emin and her great art )

come and go as you please - and miss the point as you pass by...