The Politics Thread

[thebish]

Surely the tip is for the 'service' rather than the food per se, and is used to supplement the minimum wage that shift working waiters and waitresses earn?

don't go spoiling worthy's otherwise rubbish analogy!

[Worthy4England]

Surely the tip is for the 'service' rather than the food per se, and is used to supplement the minimum wage that shift working waiters and waitresses earn?

Put whatever label you want on it.

It's still money they get over and above.

As it happens I'd generally tip more for good food and good service, than just for good service.

[BWFC_Insane]

Surely the tip is for the 'service' rather than the food per se, and is used to supplement the minimum wage that shift working waiters and waitresses earn?

Put whatever label you want on it.

It's still money they get over and above.

As it happens I'd generally tip more for good food and good service, than just for good service.

Yeah but technically it's a 'service charge'

I'm not really sure it bears comparison as its an industry that actually relies on those 'bonuses' to pay its staff and make it worthwhile for staff to work in that industry, which is very very different to banking!

[Hoboh]

"We have started a new phase in European integration," Angela Merkel told the Bundestag last week. "There are no quick and easy answers. Resolving the sovereign debt crisis is a process and this process will take years." Few people outside Germany cared much when the quiet and unassuming chancellor stood to address members in the cold and clinical surroundings of the German parliament on 2 December. But her words were keenly awaited by the German political elite. Indeed, the speech may eventually be seen as one of the defining speeches in the recent history of the European Union. In it, Mrs Merkel outlined the German vision of the future of Europe.
As Europe's largest economy - and biggest contributor so far to the bailouts of Greece, the Irish Republic and Portugal - Germany's view going into this week's EU summit is crucial. "This is all about avoiding the next crisis," says Martin van Vliet, the senior economist at ING Bank in Amsterdam. "It has little effect on this one." In the current climate, Mrs Merkel's blueprint for the future of the 27-member EU - and the 17-member eurozone - may well be the only one that matters.
Fiscal union
Mrs Merkel has called for a new EU treaty - with more power in controlling the finances of wayward nations. "We aren't just talking about a fiscal union," she told German lawmakers. "Rather, we have begun creating one. "We need budget discipline and an effective crisis management mechanism," she said. "So we need to change the treaties or create new treaties." The German government wants the new treaty to allow the EU to veto national budgets in the eurozone that breach the so-called "golden rule" regarding deficits. Mrs Merkel wants to introduce sanctions if budgets end up having larger deficits, and she wants the European Court of Justice to have jurisdiction over disputes. Pushing to transfer more national authority to Brussels at a time when the entire European project often appears to be on the verge of collapse may seem like a brazen strategy, particularly as there were already rules in place to prevent the current debt crisis from getting to this stage. The Growth and Stability Pact was introduced when the euro was agreed in 1992. It limits budget deficits to no more than 3% of a country's total economy. And following the recession in the early 2000s, who was it that quickly violated the pact? Germany and France.Even Germany's closest ally is wary of some of Mrs Merkel's proposed changes, and the European Parliament President, Jerzy Buzek, warned last Friday that treaty change could be divisive and "dangerous". That is because a treaty change would have to be approved by all 27 states - and with some requiring referendums to give up sovereignty, it could get messy. So in a press conference with the French president on Monday, Mrs Merkel said that the treaty change would be for all 27 members - or for the 17 members of the eurozone to sign it, and other nations to do so voluntarily. And subsequent decisions on issues such as bailouts will be passed by qualified majority, not unanimity as it now. Whichever is easier for all of you, seemed to be the German message.
Inflation fears
Germany's position is defined as much as by what it does not want to do as what it does. It does not want to let the European Central Bank use its unlimited Resources to fund the eurozone rescue fund, and it does not favour pooling the debts of all the eurozone member states together into so-called eurobonds. On the first point, Mrs Merkel has said she does not want the central bank to rescue governments by printing money. Mr Sarkozy and Mrs Merkel are effectively deciding policy for the whole bloc This is because pumping money into the economy can lead to inflation - and Germany is still scarred by hyperinflation in the early 1920s under the Weimar Republic. In April 1919, 12 marks were needed to buy one US dollar. By 1923, 4.2 trillion marks were needed. And this was quickly followed by the Great Depression. Since 1957, the Bundesbank has targeted inflation to prevent a repeat from ever happening - and was the first central bank to have full independence. This created one of the most stable currencies in the world - and Germany insisted that the Bundesbank's successor, the ECB, should adopt a similar mandate and also be based in Frankfurt.
In her speech, Mrs Merkel said that "the European Central Bank has a different task from that of the Fed or the Bank of England". By this, she means that the ECB (and the Bundesbank) differ from the Federal Reserve and the Bank of England in that they are not mandated to be the lenders of last resort - so they don't have to lend when the markets fail. Nevertheless, the head of the ECB, Mario Draghi, hinted last week the bank might consider some kind of action if policymakers agreed on a "fiscal compact" for the euro area. There is also talk of the ECB contributing directly to the IMF, which in turn would lend to stricken member states or to the bailout fund. On the issue of eurobonds, Mrs Merkel called the idea "extraordinarily distressing". "A joint liability for others' debts is not acceptable," she told the Bundestag. "Eurobonds are not a rescue measure in this crisis." The German political establishment is loath to get into the idea of the German taxpayer backing the debts of their much less productive neighbours in the south. "For Germany, it is a morality play," says Mr van Vliet. "They say we did our homework and some countries in southern Europe did not. That is the dangerous game they are playing. "They want to avoid the moral hazard problem." Anyway, the German constitutional court said in September that guaranteeing foreign debts would be unconstitutional.
'Right path'
Mrs Merkel has vetoed most of the options suggested by France and other countries like Spain and Italy, which have passed unprecedented austerity reforms. That leaves everyone else in the eurozone financially desperate, politically weak and looking to Berlin to be told what to do. And so Mrs Merkel concluded her speech with: "The future of the euro is inseparable from European unity." "The path ahead is long and it is difficult but it is the right path for the joint good of a strong Germany in a strong European Union, for the benefit of people in Germany and in Europe." And then she was done, to polite applause. "If you look at the future, one thing is now we all know what the flaws of the eurozone are," Mr van Vliet says. "The question is whatever they do, will it be enough. "One thing is that it will never be like what you have in the US - a political union." In that case, someone has to take charge. For the rest of Europe, this might mean years of being told what to do by the Germans

[Lord Kangana]

Surely the tip is for the 'service' rather than the food per se, and is used to supplement the minimum wage that shift working waiters and waitresses earn?

Put whatever label you want on it.

It's still money they get over and above.

As it happens I'd generally tip more for good food and good service, than just for good service.

Yeah but technically it's a 'service charge'

I'm not really sure it bears comparison as its an industry that actually relies on those 'bonuses' to pay its staff and make it worthwhile for staff to work in that industry, which is very very different to banking!

The more unscrupulous employers used to pay about a 10 quid basic to waiting staff for a 10 hour shift. Thats £1 an hour. The "tips" were the waiting staffs actual wage. Not seen it as much recently, but I wouldn't have an argument if the man wasn't already rewarded with over £1m a year already.

[Worthy4England]

Surely the tip is for the 'service' rather than the food per se, and is used to supplement the minimum wage that shift working waiters and waitresses earn?

Put whatever label you want on it.

It's still money they get over and above.

As it happens I'd generally tip more for good food and good service, than just for good service.

Yeah but technically it's a 'service charge'

I'm not really sure it bears comparison as its an industry that actually relies on those 'bonuses' to pay its staff and make it worthwhile for staff to work in that industry, which is very very different to banking!

The more unscrupulous employers used to pay about a 10 quid basic to waiting staff for a 10 hour shift. Thats £1 an hour. The "tips" were the waiting staffs actual wage. Not seen it as much recently, but I wouldn't have an argument if the man wasn't already rewarded with over £1m a year already.

I think there is a decent enough argument against paying out huge wads to someone, when the business is largely state owned. I don't have any major problem with a private company/PLC rewarding as they feel they need to. Although I would say that sorting out the fooking mess - and Hester wasn't there when the mess arose - is a job that probably has a small recruitment base. He gets paid (including his bonus) about a third of what some footballers get (or probably about what some Bolton players get) for doing a rather more complex job.

That's not condoning some poor sod being on a quid an hour...

What's your view on capping benefits at the national average wage?

[Lord Kangana]

I've said previously that I have no issue with it. Its how this discussion started. Becasuse as I pointed out, its a bit rich to claim popular support for that, then ignore the overwhelming outcry for this bonus to be stopped. Cameron can be populist by all means, but I'd like to see consistency aswell.

[Prufrock]

Aye, what LK said. It does seem this cap thing is being used to switch attention away from the equally justified qualms people have with the super rich just not paying any tax. And bankers continuing to earn stupid money while everybody else suffers for the crisis the system which rewards them so handsomely caused. Someone described it as turning attention away from the scroungers above, to the scroungers below. Can we not criticise all scroungers?

On a similar note, when did they pull the trick that this is all the fault of Labour over-spending? The arse falling out of tax revenues doesn't get mentioned, never mind the entire pissing credit crunch. It's all sovereign debt, as if we'd be fine if only Labour hadn't insisted on having so many libraries.

[Prufrock]

And one more thing on politics. I'm sick of the Two Ed's 'we don't like the cuts, but we'd have to keep them' line being reported as 'too complicated'. How dim are, or I hope, do they think people are?!

[Worthy4England]

I've said previously that I have no issue with it. Its how this discussion started. Becasuse as I pointed out, its a bit rich to claim popular support for that, then ignore the overwhelming outcry for this bonus to be stopped. Cameron can be populist by all means, but I'd like to see consistency aswell.

One is popular support regarding how we as a country divest of our pot called "social welfare", the other is an outcry about something that is generally bugger all to do with the electorate - other than where we "own" the bank in the RBS case. So I don't have a huge problem with people having their two pennorth about Hester - although as I said, he's the guy that's running the bail-out (rather than the guy that caused it).

What is the cut-off point for people to get a "popular outcry vote" ?

[Prufrock]

It has everything to do with the electorate. If enough people wanted it, and voted for a party promising it, a law limiting bankers bonuses to 10% of their salary would be allowed. As would capping their salary at a tenner. Or using them as squeegies for window-cleaners, or pretty much anything else providing it got a democratically elected mandate. I've used two extreme examples, but I don't think it is beyond the realms of possibilities for one of the parties to try number one as a vote winner. And were people to vote for it, who says they are wrong?

[Worthy4England]

It has everything to do with the electorate. If enough people wanted it, and voted for a party promising it, a law limiting bankers bonuses to 10% of their salary would be allowed. As would capping their salary at a tenner. Or using them as squeegies for window-cleaners, or pretty much anything else providing it got a democratically elected mandate. I've used two extreme examples, but I don't think it is beyond the realms of possibilities for one of the parties to try number one as a vote winner. And were people to vote for it, who says they are wrong?

Well that was part of where I was heading...why stop at bankers? etc. I suspect it wouldn't be legal under "restraint of trade" legislation...but not sure.

[Prufrock]

Because people blame them? Being serious it would be difficult to argue why it should only apply to bankers, but I think people are starting to get annoyed at being told they have to suffer pay freezes, lose jobs and services whilst some people get paid what seem ludicrously disproportionate amounts. People were happy to buy the 'we create money so deserve it, you'd all be fooked without us rhetoric', but now seem far less willing to accept it at face value. Sure, if it's true, I can't see any objections, but I think folk would rather they came up with a bit more than just saying it. Of course problems with actually enforcing anything that genuinely wouldn't do more harm than good are many and large, but it doesn't mean it's not worth doing, if folk decide they don't like it.

Taking the point to the extreme, nothing to stop them repealing any restraint of trade legislation. Parliamentary Supremacy ftw.

[thebish]

He gets paid (including his bonus) about a third of what some footballers get (or probably about what some Bolton players get) for doing a rather more complex job.

and more than 3x what the governor of the Bank of England gets....

[BWFC_Insane]

And one more thing on politics. I'm sick of the Two Ed's 'we don't like the cuts, but we'd have to keep them' line being reported as 'too complicated'. How dim are, or I hope, do they think people are?!

Pretty dim.

Wich is why most swallow the line about the economic crisis being down to librarians and nurses rather than the greedy rich who tried to make even more money from poor folk who should have known better but didn't.

Speak to your average bloke on the steet and they really are that simple when it comes to politics.

Sad though it is, it's reduced to basically a partisan football crowd debate more than anything else!

[thebish]

And one more thing on politics. I'm sick of the Two Ed's 'we don't like the cuts, but we'd have to keep them' line being reported as 'too complicated'. How dim are, or I hope, do they think people are?!

Pretty dim.

Wich is why most swallow the line about the economic crisis being down to librarians and nurses rather than the greedy rich who tried to make even more money from poor folk who should have known better but didn't.

Speak to your average bloke on the steet and they really are that simple when it comes to politics.

Sad though it is, it's reduced to basically a partisan football crowd debate more than anything else!

which would be tempered if people could be slightly less tribal and actually criticise their own "tribe" when they are talking bollox (one of the things - despite being wrong 99% of the time - that Mummy is often prepared to do..)

would you agree with me that the proposed "5 point plan for growth" that Balls and Millibot keep talking about is an absolute bag of ineffective arse-wind?

[Worthy4England]

He gets paid (including his bonus) about a third of what some footballers get (or probably about what some Bolton players get) for doing a rather more complex job.

and more than 3x what the governor of the Bank of England gets....

Yes indeed - significantly more than the person that runs the country too - although they tend to make up for it when they cease running the country...

The point is - putting aside banking for a moment - how private companies divvy up their remuneration is really up to the private company concerned - and any shareholders who get a vote that counts.

I agree that whilst the banks are publicly owned, then there could be different rules - but we probably wouldn't want some clueless muppet running the buggers either (we had enough of them in the first place to get into this mess, one of which has £350k per annum pension after taking out a £2.7m lump sum) - the sooner they can start to pay back, has got to be better for the taxpayer than having some half-ass earning half the amount and taking twice as long.

[thebish]

He gets paid (including his bonus) about a third of what some footballers get (or probably about what some Bolton players get) for doing a rather more complex job.

and more than 3x what the governor of the Bank of England gets....

Yes indeed - significantly more than the person that runs the country too - although they tend to make up for it when they cease running the country...

sorry - I just thought I'd stumbled across a meaningless salary-comparison website - so I joined in!

[Hoboh]

It's the blind fools who vent anger at these company bosses then continue to use their services that get me, now if folk started to vote with their feet "restraint of trade" would be replaced by "market forces".
Apathy the meat and drink of capitalism

[The Axman]

....

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sorry - I just thought I'd stumbled across a meaningless salary-comparison website - so I joined in!

comparethefatkats. complexses.