Britains Got Talent...

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Given that the play was accredited to be written in the early 1600's, I suspect for a large number of years, it was cast with a "white" actor in the lead role. The RSC would appear to agree with this contention. There is an interesting discussion on the topic here:

http://www.rsc.org.uk/othello/learning/othello.html

The point is that because you have gotten used to good coloured actors playing the role, that you can't now envisage a good non-coloured person playing the part, yet for most of the its life, it's probably been the other way round, and yet as a dramatic work, it managed to stand the test of time. How so, if it isn't feasible?

You're right - I have actually seen three different black actors play Othello very well on the stage.

But surely almost every white actor who has ever played Othello has been 'blacked up', like Olivier, for the part? I have no problem 'envisaging' that (though I do think the role is much better played by a man with African features).

I mean, presumably, if they ever make 'Nelson Mandela: The Movie', only black actors will be considered for the lead role? Seems a no-brainer to me.

[TANGODANCER]

Nothing seems set in stone for film-makers these days. I suppose it's all down to how you want to present it. If a version of Garcia Lorca's "Blood Wedding" can be set in Rawtenstall (something that was done and apparently went down well enough), then I suppose the same thing could be done with Oliver Twist. The emphasis needs to be a on a clear explanation of the story and timeline. Certain roles need correct casting for authenticity, as Mummy pointed out. Hard to imagine "Roots" being made with reversed roles as it's a story based on life and times in a particular place and period in history.

Nancy wasn't black in the author's creation, just as Othello wasn't white. Not any sort of racial discrimination, so much as purely an identity fact. The actual storyline/plot of Oliver Twist could almost be set in any time and place. The authors works should always be respected as the original version even if only historically and due credit given. Beyond that, the world's your oyster.

[Worthy4England]

Given that the play was accredited to be written in the early 1600's, I suspect for a large number of years, it was cast with a "white" actor in the lead role. The RSC would appear to agree with this contention. There is an interesting discussion on the topic here:

http://www.rsc.org.uk/othello/learning/othello.html

The point is that because you have gotten used to good coloured actors playing the role, that you can't now envisage a good non-coloured person playing the part, yet for most of the its life, it's probably been the other way round, and yet as a dramatic work, it managed to stand the test of time. How so, if it isn't feasible?

You're right - I have actually seen three different black actors play Othello very well on the stage.

But surely almost every white actor who has ever played Othello has been 'blacked up', like Olivier, for the part? I have no problem 'envisaging' that (though I do think the role is much better played by a man with African features).

I mean, presumably, if they ever make 'Nelson Mandela: The Movie', only black actors will be considered for the lead role? Seems a no-brainer to me.

I 'spect your right and generally not in violent disagreement. I guess what it all boils down to it the "intent" of the character and the intent of the particular play/film that they're acting in. We've sort of moved the debate away a little here from whether Oliver and/or Nancy could be black to whether something autobigraphical about a black man should be cast with a black actor. Part (most) of the point of Othello was about him being a different colour than the society that he was in - similar would be true of "Nelson Mandela: The Movie". For me, for example, the Artful Dodger could be any colour you choose as long as he fits the bill "cheeky little scamp". Similarly, I don't believe that Oliver and Nancy necessarily need to be cast as non-Irish or non-coloured as the intent of Oliver Twist is surely to highlight issues surrounding poverty and class....

[TANGODANCER]

The reason so many productions are made of classical literature plays and stories is one of the barrel being empty as to constant new ideas. There are only thirty-nine conceivable plots in drama and everything is a version of them. Shakespeare is a very popular scource of content, witness the many variations on a theme: Romeo and Juliet (any star-crossed lovers drama) Joe McBeth, a gangster verison of The Scottish Play etc etc.

In Oliver's case, as Worthy suggests, the class-distinction/poverty and hard-times theme could well be adapted to any area or time, even today. All that needs to be remembered is that the original version was a reflection of 1830's London time and conditions and the conception and characters were the work of Charles Dickens. That in mind, variations on a them are fine and could just as well be anywhere.

[Hoboh]

The reason so many productions are made of classical literature plays and stories is one of the barrel being empty as to constant new ideas. There are only thirty-nine conceivable plots in drama and everything is a version of them. Shakespeare is a very popular scource of content, witness the many variations on a theme: Romeo and Juliet (any star-crossed lovers drama) Joe McBeth, a gangster verison of The Scottish Play etc etc.

In Oliver's case, as Worthy suggests, the class-distinction/poverty and hard-times theme could well be adapted to any area or time, even today. All that needs to be remembered is that the original version was a reflection of 1830's London time and conditions and the conception and characters were the work of Charles Dickens. That in mind, variations on a them are fine and could just as well be anywhere.

Aye plenty street brats and Fagins about nowadays!!!

[communistworkethic]

As it is at no point does Shakespeare clarify the skin colour, as moores could be arab, muslim or black. In fact doesn't he confuse the issue in Merchant and Titus Andronicus? Surely to goodness the whole point with Othello is that the charcater is a different colour of skin to the rest of the main protagonists - one of the main themes of the play is racism. So, while as the Patrick Stewart example demonstrates a white man can play the role, it has to be contextualised by the skins of the rest of the cast to support the plot.

Whereas a black, white, brown red or yellow Nancy has no bearing on the plot whatsoever.

[Worthy4England]

As it is at no point does Shakespeare clarify the skin colour, as moores could be arab, muslim or black. In fact doesn't he confuse the issue in Merchant and Titus Andronicus? Surely to goodness the whole point with Othello is that the charcater is a different colour of skin to the rest of the main protagonists - one of the main themes of the play is racism. So, while as the Patrick Stewart example demonstrates a white man can play the role, it has to be contextualised by the skins of the rest of the cast to support the plot.

Whereas a black, white, brown red or yellow Nancy has no bearing on the plot whatsoever.

That's where I was at

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

As it is at no point does Shakespeare clarify the skin colour, as moores could be arab, muslim or black. In fact doesn't he confuse the issue in Merchant and Titus Andronicus? Surely to goodness the whole point with Othello is that the charcater is a different colour of skin to the rest of the main protagonists - one of the main themes of the play is racism. So, while as the Patrick Stewart example demonstrates a white man can play the role, it has to be contextualised by the skins of the rest of the cast to support the plot.

Whereas a black, white, brown red or yellow Nancy has no bearing on the plot whatsoever.

No bearing on the plot, perhaps.

But either the production is an attempt to represent Dickens' England, or it's not...

A black Nancy or Oliver, would, for me, be as much of an anachronistic distraction as it would be if the Artful Dodger et al were to start producing mobile phones and Oyster cards from the pockets of London's Victorian gentlemen!

[TANGODANCER]

Perhaps it's time for some modern writers to write new plays based on today? . Dickens wrote of his life and times as a book; he probably never envisaged that his works would become treasured literature and inspire playwrites to stage them for generations beyond him. He created characters which illustrators like Boz, for example, depicted as they would have appeared then.

I'm not sure why we need to change his, or Shakespeare's works at all. I read a forum where this topic diversified into a "why not a black Heathcliffe?" in Wuthering Heights. My only answer would be Why?
For my money, if you want Dickens or Shakespeare, take them as you find them or write a story of your own. Would we ask why a white guy couldn't play the lead in The Louis Armstrong Story?

I have great admiration for the work of multi-racial casting. Samuel Jackson, Morgan Freeman, Sidney Poitier and dozens of male and female, modern actors, are terrific. Freeman was ideal as a Moor in "Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves" because the story included him as an added character to the story, not an original one. I doubt anyone would have cast him as Robin Hood just to prove a point. Not having a black Nancy hasn't nothing whatsoever to do with racism or prejudice. It's because she was white, no other reason.

[communistworkethic]

As it is at no point does Shakespeare clarify the skin colour, as moores could be arab, muslim or black. In fact doesn't he confuse the issue in Merchant and Titus Andronicus? Surely to goodness the whole point with Othello is that the charcater is a different colour of skin to the rest of the main protagonists - one of the main themes of the play is racism. So, while as the Patrick Stewart example demonstrates a white man can play the role, it has to be contextualised by the skins of the rest of the cast to support the plot.

Whereas a black, white, brown red or yellow Nancy has no bearing on the plot whatsoever.

No bearing on the plot, perhaps.

But either the production is an attempt to represent Dickens' England, or it's not...

A black Nancy or Oliver, would, for me, be as much of an anachronistic distraction as it would be if the Artful Dodger et al were to start producing mobile phones and Oyster cards from the pockets of London's Victorian gentlemen!

are you suggesting that a down to earth scrubber in a ropey area of london in dickensian England could under no realist circumstances have been black? I respectfully suggest the gentleman refers back to his history books forthwith.

[Worthy4England]

Perhaps it's time for some modern writers to write new plays based on today? . Dickens wrote of his life and times as a book; he probably never envisaged that his works would become treasured literature and inspire playwrites to stage them for generations beyond him. He created characters which illustrators like Boz, for example, depicted as they would have appeared then.

I'm not sure why we need to change his, or Shakespeare's works at all. I read a forum where this topic diversified into a "why not a black Heathcliffe?" in Wuthering Heights. My only answer would be Why?
For my money, if you want Dickens or Shakespeare, take them as you find them or write a story of your own. Would we ask why a white guy couldn't play the lead in The Louis Armstrong Story?

I have great admiration for the work of multi-racial casting. Samuel Jackson, Morgan Freeman, Sidney Poitier and dozens of male and female, modern actors, are terrific. Freeman was ideal as a Moor in "Robin Hood, Prince of Thieves" because the story included him as an added character to the story, not an original one. I doubt anyone would have cast him as Robin Hood just to prove a point. Not having a black Nancy hasn't nothing whatsoever to do with racism or prejudice. It's because she was white, no other reason.

I do think TD, that you are asking us to compare autobiographical figures with fictional ones. I'm not sure that helps the point along either way.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

are you suggesting that a down to earth scrubber in a ropey area of london in dickensian England could under no realist circumstances have been black? I respectfully suggest the gentleman refers back to his history books forthwith.

Perhaps my own library is not as extensive as the honourable gentleman's and he might be kind enough to direct me to a helpful volume?

Seriously though, was there really a black community in London in the first half of the 19th century that extended much beyond male slaves (escaped or not) and soldiers? I don't mind admitting my ignorance and the fact that a sizeable chunk of my knowledge of London at that time is derived from........ Charles Dickens!

Let's assume you're right and there were black women of questionable repute operating in 1830s London... could they really have been so embedded in the culture and language as to be 'down to earth' Nancy? Given the race attitudes of the time, wouldn't a black Nancy have meant a seriously different dynamic and dialogue between her and the rest of the characters (unless, of course, you want to argue that the entire cast could sensibly be black).

Perhaps it isn't completely outside the realm of possibility, but that would seem and odd way to cast a part, would it not - to look at someone and say "well, you're not what we, or Dickens, had in mind, but I suppose it's not 100% inconceivable that Character X could have been Attribute Y"?

Perhaps it is possible to imagine a black Nancy in Dickens' London. Imagining a black Nancy in Dickens' story, however, is, it is submitted, impossible.


Argh, I never cease to amaze myself with the tedium I am prepared to get into when avoiding the real work I have to do....

[TANGODANCER]

I do think TD, that you are asking us to compare autobiographical figures with fictional ones. I'm not sure that helps the point along either way.

Okay, then forget it all except for my last lines. "Not having a black Nancy (in Dicken's Oliver Twist, which we are discussing) has nothing whatsoever to do with racism or prejudice. It's because she was white, no other reason. If it were written today that wouldn't be the case, but it was published in 1837/8. There is no bias, just plain fact.

[Worthy4England]

I do think TD, that you are asking us to compare autobiographical figures with fictional ones. I'm not sure that helps the point along either way.

Okay, then forget it all except for my last lines. "Not having a black Nancy (in Dicken's Oliver Twist, which we are discussing) has nothing whatsoever to do with racism or prejudice. It's because she was white, no other reason. If it were written today that wouldn't be the case, but it was published in 1837/8. There is no bias, just plain fact.

I understand what you're saying about this being a non-racist/prejudiced discussion I'm still trying to find out if Dickens ever refers to Nancy as "white"....

[TANGODANCER]

I do think TD, that you are asking us to compare autobiographical figures with fictional ones. I'm not sure that helps the point along either way.

Okay, then forget it all except for my last lines. "Not having a black Nancy (in Dicken's Oliver Twist, which we are discussing) has nothing whatsoever to do with racism or prejudice. It's because she was white, no other reason. If it were written today that wouldn't be the case, but it was published in 1837/8. There is no bias, just plain fact.

I understand what you're saying about this being a non-racist/prejudiced discussion I'm still trying to find out if Dickens ever refers to Nancy as "white"....

This is how Dickens introduces her and her friend, Bet:

"They wore a good deal of hair, not very neatly turned up behind, and were rather untidy about the shoes and stockings. They were not exactly pretty, perhaps; but they had a great deal of color in their faces, and looked quite stout and hearty."

[Worthy4England]

I do think TD, that you are asking us to compare autobiographical figures with fictional ones. I'm not sure that helps the point along either way.

Okay, then forget it all except for my last lines. "Not having a black Nancy (in Dicken's Oliver Twist, which we are discussing) has nothing whatsoever to do with racism or prejudice. It's because she was white, no other reason. If it were written today that wouldn't be the case, but it was published in 1837/8. There is no bias, just plain fact.

I understand what you're saying about this being a non-racist/prejudiced discussion I'm still trying to find out if Dickens ever refers to Nancy as "white"....

This is how Dickens introduces her and her friend, Bet:

"They wore a good deal of hair, not very neatly turned up behind, and were rather untidy about the shoes and stockings. They were not exactly pretty, perhaps; but they had a great deal of color in their faces, and looked quite stout and hearty."

I don't believe for one minute that Dickens would use the word "color", this is on Wiki

[TANGODANCER]

Try this, or read p64 in the novel.

http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/dic ... ers/6.html

[Worthy4England]

Try this, or read p64 in the novel.

http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/dic ... ers/6.html

I'd done that link too....still can't see where he says Nancy is white....semantic, but maybe she's only white because we imagine her that way...

[TANGODANCER]

Try this, or read p64 in the novel.

http://www.victorianweb.org/authors/dic ... ers/6.html

I'd done that link too....still can't see where he says Nancy is white....semantic, but maybe she's only white because we imagine her that way...

Well, I'm also convinced if she'd been black Dickens would have said so. Despite claims of a Victorian multi-cultural society in this country, this was only thirty years after the abolition of slavery and I think the non-white percentages would have been very small indeed. Not time to find facts right now as it's home time.

[communistworkethic]

are you suggesting that a down to earth scrubber in a ropey area of london in dickensian England could under no realist circumstances have been black? I respectfully suggest the gentleman refers back to his history books forthwith.

Perhaps my own library is not as extensive as the honourable gentleman's and he might be kind enough to direct me to a helpful volume?

Seriously though, was there really a black community in London in the first half of the 19th century that extended much beyond male slaves (escaped or not) and soldiers? I don't mind admitting my ignorance and the fact that a sizeable chunk of my knowledge of London at that time is derived from........ Charles Dickens!

Let's assume you're right and there were black women of questionable repute operating in 1830s London... could they really have been so embedded in the culture and language as to be 'down to earth' Nancy? Given the race attitudes of the time, wouldn't a black Nancy have meant a seriously different dynamic and dialogue between her and the rest of the characters (unless, of course, you want to argue that the entire cast could sensibly be black).

Perhaps it isn't completely outside the realm of possibility, but that would seem and odd way to cast a part, would it not - to look at someone and say "well, you're not what we, or Dickens, had in mind, but I suppose it's not 100% inconceivable that Character X could have been Attribute Y"?

Perhaps it is possible to imagine a black Nancy in Dickens' London. Imagining a black Nancy in Dickens' story, however, is, it is submitted, impossible.


Argh, I never cease to amaze myself with the tedium I am prepared to get into when avoiding the real work I have to do....

there has been a black community in London since it was Londinium. More widespread during the 15th&16th centuries until most were arrested under orders from the Queen IIRC.

From the 17th century black people were most common around the large ports, of which London was one, where they were crew, former crew and families of crew of the ships.

Given the time period over which there has been a black representationin london, it is not impossible that some, if not many, were chirpy cockerney sparras, much to the chagrin of future west ham supporters.

As has been pointed out Dickens is less that specific when it comes to the appearance of Nancy, you as with many others, have been indoctrinated by years of romantic interpretations in celluloid of the time and the characters, the majority of which were made during a period when black actors/actresses had little chance of gaining such a role - mickey rooney as chinaman, the aforementioned Larry Lovey as Othello.

Who is to say what Dickens had in mind, and to TD, why are you convinced Dickens would have said she was black? I'm pretty sure you have no specific insight in to his thoughts or perceptions of society. It is as reasonbale to suggest that she was indeed black and that he just didn't give it another thought as many such women inhabited the area of London he was writing about, or that in fact his description was somewhat euphemistic.