Poetry!!!

[TANGODANCER]

believe it or not Tango - it was a genuine question! I've heard his poetry - I've done his maths - I am interested what attracts you about his philosophy - and as you mentioned it, I didn't think you'd mind me asking.... Google won't tell me what attracts you to Khayyam's philosophy. Maybe it would help me understand where he's coming from with his poetry and grant me access into something that currently leaves me a bit cold...

If you know his poetry Bish, then surely his philosophy on life is within it? I can't explain how you will see it, only how I do. Take this, for instance: (bearing in mind it was written in the twelfth century and the language needs a bit of interpretation, as does reference to times and Eastern terms.)

"Up from earth's centre through the seventh gate
I rose, and on the throne of Saturn sate,
And many knots unravelled by the road;
But not the knot of human death and fate.

or,

Tis all a chequerboard of nights and days
Where destiny with men for pieces plays:
Hither and thither, moves and mates, and slays,
And one by one back in the closet lays.

or, a paticular favourite:

Indeed,indeed,repentance oft before,
I swore-but was I sober when I swore?
And then, and then came Spring,and rose in hand,
My threadbare penitence a-pieces tore.

To me, his philosophy on life is all there in the Rubaiyat. I can't say how other will see it.

[thebish]

Haikus are easy
But sometimes they don't make any sense.
Refrigerator.

made me laugh!

[thebish]

believe it or not Tango - it was a genuine question! I've heard his poetry - I've done his maths - I am interested what attracts you about his philosophy - and as you mentioned it, I didn't think you'd mind me asking.... Google won't tell me what attracts you to Khayyam's philosophy. Maybe it would help me understand where he's coming from with his poetry and grant me access into something that currently leaves me a bit cold...

If you know his poetry Bish, then surely his philosophy on life is within it? I can't explain how you will see it, only how I do. Take this, for instance: (bearing in mind it was written in the twelfth century and the language needs a bit of interpretation, as does reference to times and Eastern terms.)

"Up from earth's centre through the seventh gate
I rose, and on the throne of Saturn sate,
And many knots unravelled by the road;
But not the knot of human death and fate.

or,

Tis all a chequerboard of nights and days
Where destiny with men for pieces plays:
Hither and thither, moves and mates, and slays,
And one by one back in the closet lays.

or, a paticular favourite:

Indeed,indeed,repentance oft before,
I swore-but was I sober when I swore?
And then, and then came Spring,and rose in hand,
My threadbare penitence a-pieces tore.

To me, his philosophy on life is all there in the Rubaiyat. I can't say how other will see it.

no - I was just asking how you do - cos you said it attracted you. can you explain the attraction of the philosophy in those stanzas you quote - cos i'm not sure I'm grasping what it is....

if you don't want to - that's fine - i was just reponsding to your post where you said his philosophy is attractive to you, and assuming you might be willing to expand a bit on what you mean...

(oh - and I don't believe I said I "know" his poetry - merely that I have heard it - mostly at weddings)

[TANGODANCER]

no - I was just asking how you do - cos you said it attracted you. can you explain the attraction of the philosophy in those stanzas you quote - cos i'm not sure I'm grasping what it is....

if you don't want to - that's fine - i was just reponsding to your post where you said his philosophy is attractive to you, and assuming you might be willing to expand a bit on what you mean...

(oh - and I don't believe I said I "know" his poetry - merely that I have heard it - mostly at weddings)

Firstly, I said "if" you know his poetry, not that you said you did. As for the rest, well, the Rubaiyat isn't just a collection of individual poems, it's Khayyam's views/philosophies on life, a collection of non rose-tinted truths. Only reading it will explain it, not me doing so. Surely a man of your intelligence can see the 'Road to hell is paved with good intentions' connection in the 'Repentace' statement, or the 'No matter how much you think you know, no one has managed to explain
death and the hereafter satisfactorily, in the Saturn one?

Are we not risking boring everyone by wandering away from the thread topic? If you need more, then I suggest you read The Rbuaiyat.

[General Mannerheim]

gayetry.

[thebish]

no - I was just asking how you do - cos you said it attracted you. can you explain the attraction of the philosophy in those stanzas you quote - cos i'm not sure I'm grasping what it is....

if you don't want to - that's fine - i was just reponsding to your post where you said his philosophy is attractive to you, and assuming you might be willing to expand a bit on what you mean...

(oh - and I don't believe I said I "know" his poetry - merely that I have heard it - mostly at weddings)

Firstly, I said "if" you know his poetry, not that you said you did. As for the rest, well, the Rubaiyat isn't just a collection of individual poems, it's Khayyam's views/philosophies on life, a collection of non rose-tinted truths. Only reading it will explain it, not me doing so. Surely a man of your intelligence can see the 'Road to hell is paved with good intentions' connection in the 'Repentace' statement, or the 'No matter how much you think you know, no one has managed to explain
death and the hereafter satisfactorily, in the Saturn one?

Are we not risking boring everyone by wandering away from the thread topic? If you need more, then I suggest you read The Rbuaiyat.

fair enough Tango - I can form my own opinion by reading his stuff - I was just interested why you said his philosophy attracted you, is all....

from the second stanza you quote - he comes across as quite fatalistic - which would seem at odds with a catholic faith - partly what interested me in your assertion that you find his philosphy attractive - but then not knowing much about his work other than the mawkish wedding stuff - I don't know if fatalism is a significant feature of his philosophy - or why it would attract you so...

never mind though - you're obviously reluctant to explain further, so - more poetry it is then...

[General Mannerheim]

gayetry.

sorry, dont know why i wrote that.

just bored.

[TANGODANCER]

fair enough Tango - I can form my own opinion by reading his stuff - I was just interested why you said his philosophy attracted you, is all....
never mind though - you're obviously reluctant to explain further, so - more poetry it is then...

Bish, I'd be happy to hear your views on The Rubaiyat, even discuss it, but I've said as much as I can . Maybe I'm just a self-educated Bolton bloke without the benefit of any University education. I don't profess further than what I like and what means little or nothing to me. Read it thoroughly and maybe you'll see why I like it. Maybe then we'll discuss it futher.

More poetry then?

[TANGODANCER]

gayetry.

sorry, dont know why i wrote that.

just bored.

Don't worry. Many of Japan's Samurai warriors considered poetry, painting etc as important as skill with weapons.

[Prufrock]

fair enough Tango - I can form my own opinion by reading his stuff - I was just interested why you said his philosophy attracted you, is all....
never mind though - you're obviously reluctant to explain further, so - more poetry it is then...

Bish, I'd be happy to hear your views on The Rubaiyat, even discuss it, but I've said as much as I can . Maybe I'm just a self-educated Bolton bloke without the benefit of any University education. I don't profess further than what I like and what means little or nothing to me. Read it thoroughly and maybe you'll see why I like it. Maybe then we'll discuss it futher.

More poetry then?

Bishy wants to know why it is you like it. Is it the meter, the pacing of it, the style, the choice of word. Does it remind you of past experiences, if so what, which verses in particular resonate with you and why etc etc...Up to now you have just said you like it, which is perfectly valid if that's as far as you'd like to go, and that it should be obvious why. I would suggest different things mean different things to different people and it isn't quite so obvious. If you would like to discuss it further please do, and if not PLEASE say so then Bishy can get back back to breaking another of his New Year's resolutions , and we can get back to gayetry.

Surprised Mr Larkin has barely made an appearence so far, particularly since death has cropped up a few times. His Aubade is deeply perceptive regarding the huamn condition and despite it's obvious first impression of morbid contemplation, epitomised by the oft quoted,
".....Courage is no good:
It means not scaring others. Being brave
Lets no one off the grave.
Death is no different whined at than withstood."

can give inspiration through those dark moments of realisation we all have, particularly the lines,

"No trick dispels. Religion used to try,
That vast, moth-eaten musical brocade
Created to pretend we never die,
And specious stuff that says No rational being
Can fear a thing it will not feel, not seeing
That this is what we fear - no sight, no sound,
No touch or taste or smell, nothing to think with,
Nothing to love or link with,
The anasthetic from which none come round."

the reasons we fear death are the very reasons we should be glad to be alive.

[thebish]

Spike Milligan....

Said Hamlet to Ophelia,
I'll draw a sketch of thee,
What kind of pencil shall I use?
2B or not 2B?

[Lord Kangana]

Off topic, but Spike Milligan's gravestone inscription joke always killed me;

"I told you I was Ill".

genius.

[thebish]

Surprised Mr Larkin has barely made an appearence so far, particularly since death has cropped up a few times. His Aubade is deeply perceptive regarding the huamn condition and despite it's obvious first impression of morbid contemplation, epitomised by the oft quoted,
".....Courage is no good:
It means not scaring others. Being brave
Lets no one off the grave.
Death is no different whined at than withstood."

can give inspiration through those dark moments of realisation we all have, particularly the lines,

"No trick dispels. Religion used to try,
That vast, moth-eaten musical brocade
Created to pretend we never die,
And specious stuff that says No rational being
Can fear a thing it will not feel, not seeing
That this is what we fear - no sight, no sound,
No touch or taste or smell, nothing to think with,
Nothing to love or link with,
The anasthetic from which none come round."

the reasons we fear death are the very reasons we should be glad to be alive.

those words are very profound.... I have reflected on them often, having been present many times at the moment of death - such reflective poetry fascinates me (this - alongside Dylan Thomas and John Donne quoted earlier). Donne strikes an overly triumphalist tone for me - I have not often experienced death being taunted so "triumphantly" by the dying...

Larkin and Thomas are way closer to the mark..

I have always also taken Frost's "Stopping by woods on a snowy evening" to be about death - the repeated last line is surely a lure for the reader to take the poem for something much deeper than it at first seems...... and sleep is a frequently used metaphor for death...

I more often encounter this kind of whistful regret - but also a kind of inexlicable mysterious allure of death than Thomas's "raging" at the moment of death or larkin's "whining" - but all three are closer to the mark than Donne.... (surely based on Paul's gloriously defiant words - "Death, where is thy sting?" - which I can understand - and have used at funeral services in my own family - but I am always whispering quietly - yeah, ok Death - I feel thy sting.....)

Frost:

Whose woods these are I think I know.
His house is in the village, though;
He will not see me stopping here
To watch his woods fill up with snow.

My little horse must think it queer
To stop without a farmhouse near
Between the woods and frozen lake
The darkest evening of the year.

He gives his harness bells a shake
To ask if there is some mistake.
The only other sounds the sweep
Of easy wind and downy flake.

The woods are lovely, dark, and deep,
But I have promises to keep,
And miles to go before I sleep,
And miles to go before I sleep.

[thebish]

Off topic, but Spike Milligan's gravestone inscription joke always killed me;

"I told you I was Ill".

genius.

glorious!

[TANGODANCER]

Bishy wants to know why it is you like it. Is it the meter, the pacing of it, the style, the choice of word. Does it remind you of past experiences, if so what, which verses in particular resonate with you and why etc etc....

Sigh--Pru, don't you become condescending too. Am I some sort of idiot that I don't know what Bish is saying? He isn't asking anything of the sort. I already explained I like the truthful honesty of Khayyam. I don't anywhere compare him with others. Have you read the Rubaiyat Pru?

Bish was asking my what appealed to me about Khayyam's philosophy, not about meter, style of verse or choice of word. Don't know how you deduced that. I replied the philosophy was in the man's poetry. I gave three examples.( I'd already quoted another in this thread.) Bish questioned the second as being fatalistic and un-Catholic, whilst the first seems to me to be saying that despite all man's knowlege/science, he is unable to explain God or the after life with any authority. Is that totally fatalistic? You decide, then you'll have passed an opinion just as I did. In another example Khayyam quotes "He who put you there, he knows, he knows" referring to God/Allah.

Khayyam, for me, was a far more intelligent person than just a wine lover stating "Here with a loaf of bread beneath the bough, a book of verse, a flask of wine and thou beside me singing in the wilderness". He was a man way before his time.

[William the White]

I think Khayyam was daring - taking a popular verse form (a nomadic people like the arabs of that time loved poetry and music, stuff that didn't need to be written down) and used this to advance questions of god and islamic law (why are there crippled people - did the glorious creators hand shake a bit? Isn't wine wonderful? and love?)

fitzgerald's translation gets on my nerves a bit - the victorian straight jacket of it - but he sometimes hits beautifully - ('the moving finger writes, and having writ, moves on...)

Tony Harrison did a brilliant job in his response to the fatwa on Salman Rushdie, writing for Channel 4 a tremendous narrative epic poem (45 mins, i think?) called 'The Blasphemer's Banquet' which he shot in a curry house in Bradford... Here he brought together some great blaspemers - Voltaire was one, can't remember the others - apart from him himself...

The name of the curry house? Omar Khayyam... Another great blasphemer...

And a few days after it was broadcast IIRC it was burned down by Bradford's fatwa-lovers...

Omar probably smiled and snarled from his grave beneath the turned down empty glass...

[William the White]

she's like the poet laureate of sex... here's the start of her poem 'Ecstasy'

As we made love for the third day,
cloudy and dark, as we did not stop but went
into it, and into it, and
did not hesitate and did not hold back we
rose through the air, until we were above
timber line.

I have to say, William, that for me that's just Reader's Wives for the whimsical. Sorry, Chief.

Have to get the next twenty lines perhaps, to get her wonder and relish at how far above the timber line they can travel in those three days of making love... and how lost and frightening and overwhelming and sonderful it seems... she's brilliant... Tried to find an online link, didn't manage other than a bad - male - reading of the poem... That I don't recommend...

[Dujon]

A Change of Life

Strewth, Jon - I realise the subject matter has some personal significance for you, but that's some of the most tedious anaphora I've ever read....!

Would you have preferred cataphora? It was meant to be what you read into it, my friend. I really must check my compass.

[William the White]

That this is what we fear - no sight, no sound,
No touch or taste or smell, nothing to think with,
Nothing to love or link with,
The anasthetic from which none come round."

the reasons we fear death are the very reasons we should be glad to be alive.

Excellent, Pru, excellent!

[Jakerbeef]

What this thread really needs is some John Cooper Clarke.

Every thread gets improved by the great man. Though Beasley Street is his best. It starts out dark and just gets grimier.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37QUUwp9xIs