new Muslim youth club just opened in Newcastle...

[thebish]

Direct quote from Sarkozy:

The problem of the burka is not a religious problem. This is an issues of a women’s freedom and dignity. This is not a religious symbol. It is a sign of subservience; it is a sign of lowering. I want to say solemnly, the burka is not welcome in France

.

Lets be clear here, I think he's a moron 90% of the time, but I agree with him on this one.

if we take him at his word - then yes - I am probably conflicted, you are right - but then the world is never so easily black and white that we aren't conflicted most of the time!

If we take him at his word - and it is about freedom for women - do you think it will actually improve the lot of any single oppressed woman forced to wear the burqa? or is it merely symbolic?

are they also banning porn?

[Lord Kangana]

We all know that most politicians are wankers. We also know that most legislation is designed to enrich your own voting demographic, provide baby-kissing opportunities and win the votes of nefarious minorities who could swing a result.

However, what we have to do is extract from that what a law, in the main, will achieve. I believe this one has somewhere in it a reasonably noble element. Its probably unintentioned, but its there.

[Worthy4England]

Direct quote from Sarkozy:

The problem of the burka is not a religious problem. This is an issues of a women’s freedom and dignity. This is not a religious symbol. It is a sign of subservience; it is a sign of lowering. I want to say solemnly, the burka is not welcome in France

.

Lets be clear here, I think he's a moron 90% of the time, but I agree with him on this one.

if we take him at his word - then yes - I am probably conflicted, you are right - but then the world is never so easily black and white that we aren't conflicted most of the time!

If we take him at his word - and it is about freedom for women - do you think it will actually improve the lot of any single oppressed woman forced to wear the burqa? or is it merely symbolic?

are they also banning porn?

As a Country, their Government has taken a view and put it to a vote. That vote has been successful (although the legislation may ultimately not be for a whole variety of reasons relating to wider EU legislation). Why as a democratic society can they not do this?

I'm sure with their history of demonstrations, if this is abhorrent to the French people, they'll take to the streets - they have a fairly good track record of so doing.

[thebish]

Direct quote from Sarkozy:

The problem of the burka is not a religious problem. This is an issues of a women’s freedom and dignity. This is not a religious symbol. It is a sign of subservience; it is a sign of lowering. I want to say solemnly, the burka is not welcome in France

.

Lets be clear here, I think he's a moron 90% of the time, but I agree with him on this one.

if we take him at his word - then yes - I am probably conflicted, you are right - but then the world is never so easily black and white that we aren't conflicted most of the time!

If we take him at his word - and it is about freedom for women - do you think it will actually improve the lot of any single oppressed woman forced to wear the burqa? or is it merely symbolic?

are they also banning porn?

As a Country, their Government has taken a view and put it to a vote. That vote has been successful (although the legislation may ultimately not be for a whole variety of reasons relating to wider EU legislation). Why as a democratic society can they not do this?

I'm sure with their history of demonstrations, if this is abhorrent to the French people, they'll take to the streets - they have a fairly good track record of so doing.

indeed - and i am not arguing with that. I thought we were being asked in this thread what we thought about it - which has made for an interesting discussion...

[boltonboris]

That's absurd. Spain banned cloaks years when people wanted to wear them. They also found them useful for carrying swords and knives around unseen, hence the ban.

Hmm.. So you're saying cloaks were banned because of national security? Which basically means, burkas are being banned because the people under them could well be terrorists? Hey, I could be a terrorist. I don't wear a burka, I sometimes wear a big duffel coat though, I could conceal anything under that. Also, I sometimes wear a balaclava in winter... Bloody hell, I better stop going out, I'll end up getting shot at a train station by some xenophonic figure of 'authority'!

If you turn out in a duffel coat and a balaclava then you deserve summary execution by the fashion police.

NEXT!!

I don't really.... But I could! And nobody would be able to (legally) stop me

[thebish]

We all know that most politicians are wankers. We also know that most legislation is designed to enrich your own voting demographic, provide baby-kissing opportunities and win the votes of nefarious minorities who could swing a result.

However, what we have to do is extract from that what a law, in the main, will achieve. I believe this one has somewhere in it a reasonably noble element. Its probably unintentioned, but its there.

indeed...

so....

do you think this law will have any beneficial effect for any oppressed muslim women in france - if so, how and what?

[Zulus Thousand of em]

That's absurd. Spain banned cloaks years when people wanted to wear them. They also found them useful for carrying swords and knives around unseen, hence the ban.

Hmm.. So you're saying cloaks were banned because of national security? Which basically means, burkas are being banned because the people under them could well be terrorists? Hey, I could be a terrorist. I don't wear a burka, I sometimes wear a big duffel coat though, I could conceal anything under that. Also, I sometimes wear a balaclava in winter... Bloody hell, I better stop going out, I'll end up getting shot at a train station by some xenophonic figure of 'authority'!

If you turn out in a duffel coat and a balaclava then you deserve summary execution by the fashion police.

NEXT!!

I don't really.... But I could! And nobody would be able to (legally) stop me

The fashion police are above the law and could, quite easily, choose to terminate you with extreme prejudice.

You shouldn't feck about with the fashion police!

[Lord Kangana]

Its just a step in the right direction. Every journey begins with a small step.

France has a hell of a lot more problems with race than we do, though some of the same issues of ghettoisation are rearing their ugly heads here. To compound that, it also has a much bloodier past with regards to religious indoctrination and persecution. Hence the secularism. It remains to be seen as to what the effects will be, but what they won't be (like anything ) will be instantaneous nor all encompassing. Its not a panacea. Who knows, maybe in 50 years time, as a the muslim lady president of France meets with the president of England, we'll look back and realise small acorns create great something or others.

[boltonboris]

Its just a step in the right direction. Every journey begins with a small step.

Sorry LK, I don't see how banning attire worn by a particular ethnic group, whether that be cultural or religious against the wishes of those wearers, can be classed as "a step in the right direction"

[Hoboh]

Its just a step in the right direction. Every journey begins with a small step.

France has a hell of a lot more problems with race than we do, though some of the same issues of ghettoisation are rearing their ugly heads here. To compound that, it also has a much bloodier past with regards to religious indoctrination and persecution. Hence the secularism. It remains to be seen as to what the effects will be, but what they won't be (like anything ) will be instantaneous nor all encompassing. Its not a panacea. Who knows, maybe in 50 years time, as a the muslim lady president of France meets with the Black president of England, we'll look back and realise small acorns create great something or others.

just edited to enhance your point, I hope!

[thebish]

Its just a step in the right direction. Every journey begins with a small step.

France has a hell of a lot more problems with race than we do, though some of the same issues of ghettoisation are rearing their ugly heads here. To compound that, it also has a much bloodier past with regards to religious indoctrination and persecution. Hence the secularism. It remains to be seen as to what the effects will be, but what they won't be (like anything ) will be instantaneous nor all encompassing. Its not a panacea. Who knows, maybe in 50 years time, as a the muslim lady president of France meets with the president of England, we'll look back and realise small acorns create great something or others.

i guess we will see...

but - I think I disagree. IF the law was about prejudice against muslims and the burqa is a visible symbal of that - ie - people don't like people looking odd and weird and a bit alien wandering about on the streets (but - hey - this is france!) - then maybe I could see a tiny notional potential for an effect that lowers suspicion of muslims.

but - as you quoted - it is not about that - it is about wimmins lib.

I cannot see HOW such a law could possibly improve the lot of a single oppressed muslim woman in france - in fact - as i described earlier - it is way more likely to make her life a whole lot worse by completely isolating her.

so if this is a small step - what exactly is that small step and how does it help her?

[Hoboh]

Its just a step in the right direction. Every journey begins with a small step.

France has a hell of a lot more problems with race than we do, though some of the same issues of ghettoisation are rearing their ugly heads here. To compound that, it also has a much bloodier past with regards to religious indoctrination and persecution. Hence the secularism. It remains to be seen as to what the effects will be, but what they won't be (like anything ) will be instantaneous nor all encompassing. Its not a panacea. Who knows, maybe in 50 years time, as a the muslim lady president of France meets with the president of England, we'll look back and realise small acorns create great something or others.

i guess we will see...

but - I think I disagree. IF the law was about prejudice against muslims and the burqa is a visible symbal of that - ie - people don't like people looking odd and weird and a bit alien wandering about on the streets (but - hey - this is france!) - then maybe I could see a tiny notional potential for an effect that lowers suspicion of muslims.

but - as you quoted - it is not about that - it is about wimmins lib.

I cannot see HOW such a law could possibly improve the lot of a single oppressed muslim woman in france - in fact - as i described earlier - it is way more likely to make her life a whole lot worse by completely isolating her.
so if this is a small step - what exactly is that small step and how does it help her?

Well at least we'll know if shes fit or a dog!

[thebish]

Its just a step in the right direction. Every journey begins with a small step.

France has a hell of a lot more problems with race than we do, though some of the same issues of ghettoisation are rearing their ugly heads here. To compound that, it also has a much bloodier past with regards to religious indoctrination and persecution. Hence the secularism. It remains to be seen as to what the effects will be, but what they won't be (like anything ) will be instantaneous nor all encompassing. Its not a panacea. Who knows, maybe in 50 years time, as a the muslim lady president of France meets with the president of England, we'll look back and realise small acorns create great something or others.

i guess we will see...

but - I think I disagree. IF the law was about prejudice against muslims and the burqa is a visible symbal of that - ie - people don't like people looking odd and weird and a bit alien wandering about on the streets (but - hey - this is france!) - then maybe I could see a tiny notional potential for an effect that lowers suspicion of muslims.

but - as you quoted - it is not about that - it is about wimmins lib.

I cannot see HOW such a law could possibly improve the lot of a single oppressed muslim woman in france - in fact - as i described earlier - it is way more likely to make her life a whole lot worse by completely isolating her.
so if this is a small step - what exactly is that small step and how does it help her?

Well at least we'll know if shes fit or a dog!

not so Hoboh - because if she is oppressed - she simply won't be allowed out of the house.

[Hoboh]

Its just a step in the right direction. Every journey begins with a small step.

France has a hell of a lot more problems with race than we do, though some of the same issues of ghettoisation are rearing their ugly heads here. To compound that, it also has a much bloodier past with regards to religious indoctrination and persecution. Hence the secularism. It remains to be seen as to what the effects will be, but what they won't be (like anything ) will be instantaneous nor all encompassing. Its not a panacea. Who knows, maybe in 50 years time, as a the muslim lady president of France meets with the president of England, we'll look back and realise small acorns create great something or others.

i guess we will see...

but - I think I disagree. IF the law was about prejudice against muslims and the burqa is a visible symbal of that - ie - people don't like people looking odd and weird and a bit alien wandering about on the streets (but - hey - this is france!) - then maybe I could see a tiny notional potential for an effect that lowers suspicion of muslims.

but - as you quoted - it is not about that - it is about wimmins lib.

I cannot see HOW such a law could possibly improve the lot of a single oppressed muslim woman in france - in fact - as i described earlier - it is way more likely to make her life a whole lot worse by completely isolating her.
so if this is a small step - what exactly is that small step and how does it help her?

Well at least we'll know if shes fit or a dog!

not so Hoboh - because if she is oppressed - she simply won't be allowed out of the house.

More room on the buses then and a few less Taxis blocking the roads, win. win

[Worthy4England]

Its just a step in the right direction. Every journey begins with a small step.

France has a hell of a lot more problems with race than we do, though some of the same issues of ghettoisation are rearing their ugly heads here. To compound that, it also has a much bloodier past with regards to religious indoctrination and persecution. Hence the secularism. It remains to be seen as to what the effects will be, but what they won't be (like anything ) will be instantaneous nor all encompassing. Its not a panacea. Who knows, maybe in 50 years time, as a the muslim lady president of France meets with the president of England, we'll look back and realise small acorns create great something or others.

i guess we will see...

but - I think I disagree. IF the law was about prejudice against muslims and the burqa is a visible symbal of that - ie - people don't like people looking odd and weird and a bit alien wandering about on the streets (but - hey - this is france!) - then maybe I could see a tiny notional potential for an effect that lowers suspicion of muslims.

but - as you quoted - it is not about that - it is about wimmins lib.

I cannot see HOW such a law could possibly improve the lot of a single oppressed muslim woman in france - in fact - as i described earlier - it is way more likely to make her life a whole lot worse by completely isolating her.
so if this is a small step - what exactly is that small step and how does it help her?

Well at least we'll know if shes fit or a dog!

not so Hoboh - because if she is oppressed - she simply won't be allowed out of the house.

But surely there's already legislation in place about keeping people detained against their will (or whatever the French equivalent is)?

[Hoboh]

Its just a step in the right direction. Every journey begins with a small step.

France has a hell of a lot more problems with race than we do, though some of the same issues of ghettoisation are rearing their ugly heads here. To compound that, it also has a much bloodier past with regards to religious indoctrination and persecution. Hence the secularism. It remains to be seen as to what the effects will be, but what they won't be (like anything ) will be instantaneous nor all encompassing. Its not a panacea. Who knows, maybe in 50 years time, as a the muslim lady president of France meets with the president of England, we'll look back and realise small acorns create great something or others.

i guess we will see...

but - I think I disagree. IF the law was about prejudice against muslims and the burqa is a visible symbal of that - ie - people don't like people looking odd and weird and a bit alien wandering about on the streets (but - hey - this is france!) - then maybe I could see a tiny notional potential for an effect that lowers suspicion of muslims.

but - as you quoted - it is not about that - it is about wimmins lib.

I cannot see HOW such a law could possibly improve the lot of a single oppressed muslim woman in france - in fact - as i described earlier - it is way more likely to make her life a whole lot worse by completely isolating her.
so if this is a small step - what exactly is that small step and how does it help her?

Well at least we'll know if shes fit or a dog!

not so Hoboh - because if she is oppressed - she simply won't be allowed out of the house.

But surely there's already legislation in place about keeping people detained against their will (or whatever the French equivalent is)?

Only if your the Police

[boltonboris]

Its just a step in the right direction. Every journey begins with a small step.

France has a hell of a lot more problems with race than we do, though some of the same issues of ghettoisation are rearing their ugly heads here. To compound that, it also has a much bloodier past with regards to religious indoctrination and persecution. Hence the secularism. It remains to be seen as to what the effects will be, but what they won't be (like anything ) will be instantaneous nor all encompassing. Its not a panacea. Who knows, maybe in 50 years time, as a the muslim lady president of France meets with the president of England, we'll look back and realise small acorns create great something or others.

i guess we will see...

but - I think I disagree. IF the law was about prejudice against muslims and the burqa is a visible symbal of that - ie - people don't like people looking odd and weird and a bit alien wandering about on the streets (but - hey - this is france!) - then maybe I could see a tiny notional potential for an effect that lowers suspicion of muslims.

but - as you quoted - it is not about that - it is about wimmins lib.

I cannot see HOW such a law could possibly improve the lot of a single oppressed muslim woman in france - in fact - as i described earlier - it is way more likely to make her life a whole lot worse by completely isolating her.
so if this is a small step - what exactly is that small step and how does it help her?

Well at least we'll know if shes fit or a dog!

not so Hoboh - because if she is oppressed - she simply won't be allowed out of the house.

Ban houses then! Simple!

[thebish]

But surely there's already legislation in place about keeping people detained against their will (or whatever the French equivalent is)?

if you think the french police are remoteley interested in an unreported case of a muslim wife being kept at home by her oppressive husband - then you're living in la-la land. In those cases the burqa is a symbol of oppression - but at the very least it allows her to have a life outside the house. banning it would completely isolate her - she would not be allowed to get a job or be involved in french society. consequence - flagship symbolic coup for the govt. but in reality - the oppressed women who it is supposed to help live a much more isolated life.

[Worthy4England]

But surely there's already legislation in place about keeping people detained against their will (or whatever the French equivalent is)?

if you think the french police are remoteley interested in an unreported case of a muslim wife being kept at home by her oppressive husband - then you're living in la-la land. In those cases the burqa is a symbol of oppression - but at the very least it allows her to have a life outside the house. banning it would completely isolate her - she would not be allowed to get a job or be involved in french society. consequence - flagship symbolic coup for the govt. but in reality - the oppressed women who it is supposed to help live a much more isolated life.

That wouldn't alter the fact that the legislation is probably in place, should they choose to use it.

[Lord Kangana]

You seem to be deliberately obtuse on this one bish. If we argued that no law could be acted upon unless it dealt with a problem in its entirety then we'd never achieve anything. There may well be a section of women who will experience greater oppression. There may not be. Conversely, there may be a section of women who experience greater freedom. You or I cannot say, otherwise I want the lottery numbers, now.