The Politics Thread

[mrkint]

MWCIEC - Yeah. It's from the 50s so might be a bit outdated, and a lot of the ideas seem very 'out there' but it is a very interesting take, putting economical models and applying them to political decision making. It might not be everyone's cup of tea in terms of its method but either way it's an interesting read. It's not too graph/formulae-heavy either, IIRC.

In fact, that's reminded me: i'm gonna get a copy and re-read it. Not done so for about five years.

Just looked. About 25 quid cheapest

here's a taster chapter

ftp://ftp.icesi.edu.co/jpmilanese/Siste ... Voting.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Hoboh]

I don't want us to leave the EU, but surely the debate has to be had and won for this generation?

Serious question though. Do we need a referendum? Are the general public suitable to make such a big and ultimately complex decision?

And IF they are why don't we have a referendum on every major policy issue?

You're basically asking "is democracy a good idea?". A big question.

My personal feeling is that it is appropriate to have referenda on issues that are genuinely 'constitutional' in nature, and that for those constitutional issues that involve some kind of limiting of the sovereignty of our nation state, fresh consent should be sought every generation.

It's an interesting thing to think about though. Although we have a democratic system, that doesn't extend to (and this is topical) the public being able to cherry pick a parties policies, plans or law changes.
Oh lordy!! In theory we do have the ability to "cherry pick", maximun every five years in our democratic system which is a dammed sight shorter than 37 years since we were allowed a vote and joined a market to aid business. Sweet FA was mentioned about all the political stuff and our elected mob being over ruled by faceless non democrats, hell we may as well of not botherd with the war or let the commies in!
It means they elect the party and pretty much have to suck up what they do until the next time. And often what they elect on is different to what actually happens.
The problem is the self interests of most politicians from any party, they lie or hint about things they have no intention of carrying out, these said same politicians are mainly chosen so as not to rock the boat not represent local people with intentions to carry out what effects them. Take Yasmin whatsit, she was parachuted into a labour safe seat against the wishes of the local party, I have been told that she was not wanted by the selection commitee by someone who actually sat on it but they were over ruled. Now hand on heart please tell just what the feck this email/letter ignoring woman has ever done for Bolton? I know she loves Europe, been involved before and wants the gravey chain after bit like Blair.
I suspect that your line in the sand will be tough as the argument will always be "what merits something being constitutional in nature".
The line in the sand was passed ages ago even Thatcher buckled.
Are the British public on the whole, really well informed enough to make a proper decision on Europe? I can think of things to have referendums on that the opinion of the public would be more relevant on and probably more telling.
OK Mr democrat lets ban elections all together because Joe public is too thick to understand
oh hang on it might mean we are left with this lot in power, shall we start the BWFCi referendum to bring back elections now?Ok

[BWFC_Insane]

Hoboh, my point was that you elect a set of policies advertised by a party. You might not agree with all of them but you choose broadly which fits you best.

Its not an "A'La Carte" menu where you say "I like your foreign policy and welfare reforms but your EU policy is rubbish". You don't get a vote on individual policies, decisions and laws.

And often what you elect isn't what actually happens. See NHS reforms this time for example, that was not what the Tories said was going to happen before the election!

As for the rest of it, it's not a case of being too thick. It's whether really the public should vote on something as crucial as EU membership, which has a heck of a lot of implications, some of which may even be unknown to most people, including us.

The economic argument itself is incredibly difficult to really grasp.

These are things that incredibly well educated economists still will struggle to agree on, and possibly even fully understand.

I'm confident IF there is a referendum that you won't be happy with the result Hoboh, anyhow!

[Bruce Rioja]

Here you go, Hobo - what are you like as a filmmaker?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 69582.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[BWFC_Insane]

Here you go, Hobo - what are you like as a filmmaker?

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/ho ... 69582.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Might be easier if they just cracked down on the businesses that try and suceed in employing these immigrants on terrible terms and conditions and on less than the minimum wage in many cases.

Stop that sort of horrific practice and you cut off one of the main reasons that most come here.

[Lord Kangana]

My understanding of this issue, as far as it stretches, is that there won't be any sort of "flood" or "tidal wave", "Tsunami" (or any other water related Daily Mail/Express scaremongering, water-related epithet) of Romanians.

And for why? Again, as I understand it, when we ourselves experienced the Polish Cataclysm (too mild, ed?) the Romanians were invading (seems unsatisfactory, perhaps "raping and pillaging?) Italy, because the EEA rationed the timing of when and where economic migrants were and weren't allowed to go.

[Bruce Rioja]

My understanding of this issue, as far as it stretches, is that there won't be any sort of "flood" or "tidal wave", "Tsunami" (or any other water related Daily Mail/Express scaremongering, water-related epithet) of Romanians.

And for why? Again, as I understand it, when we ourselves experienced the Polish Cataclysm (too mild, ed?) the Romanians were invading (seems unsatisfactory, perhaps "raping and pillaging?) Italy, because the EEA rationed the timing of when and where economic migrants were and weren't allowed to go.

Well someone had better tell Hobo then. He's knocking together a gun tower so that he can keep watch over his seven acres of turnips!

[thebish]

apparently the Govt is planning an advertising campaign to discourage them from coming here..

can't wait to see what that's like!

"Don't come to the UK - it's a bit shit"???

[thebish]

apparently - according to Nicky Clegg - the new high-speed rail links will heal the North-South divide!

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

My understanding of this issue, as far as it stretches, is that there won't be any sort of "flood" or "tidal wave", "Tsunami" (or any other water related Daily Mail/Express scaremongering, water-related epithet) of Romanians.

And for why? Again, as I understand it, when we ourselves experienced the Polish Cataclysm (too mild, ed?) the Romanians were invading (seems unsatisfactory, perhaps "raping and pillaging?) Italy, because the EEA rationed the timing of when and where economic migrants were and weren't allowed to go.

The thinking, I suppose, is that we were surprised by how many Poles chose to come here.

Now we have those historical data, we expect similar numbers (proportionate to population) to come from Romania.

Or am I missing something?

[thebish]

My understanding of this issue, as far as it stretches, is that there won't be any sort of "flood" or "tidal wave", "Tsunami" (or any other water related Daily Mail/Express scaremongering, water-related epithet) of Romanians.

And for why? Again, as I understand it, when we ourselves experienced the Polish Cataclysm (too mild, ed?) the Romanians were invading (seems unsatisfactory, perhaps "raping and pillaging?) Italy, because the EEA rationed the timing of when and where economic migrants were and weren't allowed to go.

The thinking, I suppose, is that we were surprised by how many Poles chose to come here.

Now we have those historical data, we expect similar numbers (proportionate to population) to come from Romania.

Or am I missing something?

except that when the Poles came it was economic boom-time... not even the perkiest of optimistic economic commentators would argue that this is the case now...

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

My understanding of this issue, as far as it stretches, is that there won't be any sort of "flood" or "tidal wave", "Tsunami" (or any other water related Daily Mail/Express scaremongering, water-related epithet) of Romanians.

And for why? Again, as I understand it, when we ourselves experienced the Polish Cataclysm (too mild, ed?) the Romanians were invading (seems unsatisfactory, perhaps "raping and pillaging?) Italy, because the EEA rationed the timing of when and where economic migrants were and weren't allowed to go.

The thinking, I suppose, is that we were surprised by how many Poles chose to come here.

Now we have those historical data, we expect similar numbers (proportionate to population) to come from Romania.

Or am I missing something?

except that when the Poles came it was economic boom-time... not even the perkiest of optimistic economic commentators would argue that this is the case now...

True, but I'm sure that applies in Romania too.

[Prufrock]

Apparently last time around we were the only ones to straight up open the gates. This time around others, Italy, Spain, Germany, Holland are doing so, and so the thinking goes the Romanians in particular will go to Italy and Spain where the language and culture are similar, and both will pick the currently stronger economies of Holland and Germany. Apparently.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

Apparently last time around we were the only ones to straight up open the gates. This time around others, Italy, Spain, Germany, Holland are doing so, and so the thinking goes the Romanians in particular will go to Italy and Spain where the language and culture are similar, and both will pick the currently stronger economies of Holland and Germany. Apparently.

I knew about Germany as the immediate neighbours, but wasn't aware of the others.

German wages are low and unattractive anyway, though - that's one of the main reasons they still have a manufacturing base.

I'm very doubtful of the idea that the Italian and Spanish languages are similar to Romanian and that anyone sees those countries as a land of opportunity at the moment, with the eye-watering numbers of young people unemployed that they have.

Holland might well be an interesting prospect. No doubt Wilders will be getting even more popular there soon.

[Athers]

Used to live with a Polish girl in London and she said that they (wrongly) had the impression over there that you get off the bus in London and someone walks up to you and offers you a job.

I'm all for the Poles though, I've never had a single problem with the shop/bar/restaurant staff in London, where everywhere is almost exclusively staffed by Poles, nor the handymen/plumbers etc.

I know there was this Daily Mail outcry like we'd been invaded by aliens but they look like us, speak good English in my experience, are Christian if that matters, and do many of the field/factory jobs which are normally only staffed by 17 year old agency staff who give up within a week (I've been one of those). We even have a history of them coming here in the post-war years, my dentist used to be a second generation called Mr Gorski and he was as much a Leyther as I was.

One problem though is that the money often disappears out of the country rather than being spent here. Well that and the under-projections of the scale of migration, which led to strains on services... Seems though that many have left, rather handily not sticking around to claim these huge luxury benefits of course, or stayed and carried on working / marrying locals. Or in my experience, breaking it off after 2 dates

[Lost Leopard Spot]

apparently - according to Nicky Clegg - the new high-speed rail links will heal the North-South divide!

It's going to Manchester because the beeb upped sticks and moved there, it's going to Leeds because the Londonluvvies want quick access to the Arms Museum, and it's stopping just short of Wigan just because it can.

[clapton is god]

^ Quick work there, Athers! Two dates, live with her and then part company. As for our Polish friends I have always got on very well with them. Grew up within something of a post-war Polish community and my two best pals were from refugee families. More recently have had lots of contact with them and without exception have found them warm and friendly people.

[Bruce Rioja]

apparently - according to Nicky Clegg - the new high-speed rail links will heal the North-South divide!

I'm all in favour of there being a North-South divide, just so long as I'm on the northern side of it. Clegg out!

[Lost Leopard Spot]

^ Quick work there, Athers! Two dates, live with her and then part company. As for our Polish friends I have always got on very well with them. Grew up within something of a post-war Polish community and my two best pals were from refugee families. More recently have had lots of contact with them and without exception have found them warm and friendly people.

Without exception (and I have a lot of Polish and half Polish friends, second generation immigrants) I find Poles to be the most miserable dour buggers going.

[mummywhycantieatcrayons]

I went out with a Polish girl (perhaps not your usual case - very highly educated and had done a law degree, a Masters and the LPC all in the UK and had a training contract at a second tier City firm) for 18 months, some of which were spent living with her.

Lovely girl, but I was so henpecked near the end that I couldn't handle it anymore.

She always said that our relationship was a good example of the Poles coming over to do the jobs that the British just wouldn't do.